Swinging and Nudism (Didn't want to hijack Julies thread)

[geo92980]

Heather and I saw this post in Julies thread she had started about swinging being the ugly stepchild of alternative lifestyles, and felt like it was something we wanted to address but by the time we got this typed the thread had taken on a little bit different feel so since we didn't want to hijack her thread or the discussions since we decided to post a new thread. So here goes.......

Originally Posted by VegasLee

Many nudists feel Swingers are evil. I have been told "God meant for us to be nude but does not mean for us to have sex with others." Yet there is nudists that are Swingers and Swingers that are nudists.

When we first saw this post we got a chuckle out of it for a couple of reasons, first reason is my wife and I are nudists as well as now being involved in swinging. Not only are we nudists but I am the President of a local naturist organization as well. My wife and I have been involved in nudism together for just shy of 4 years now ( I grew up in the lifestyle while she didn't), while we have only been involved in swinging for only about 3 months now, and yes Heather and I DO NOT mix the two lifestyles when we are at nudist events, we are at nudist events, we do not talk about swinging or make passes at people even if it is someone we think we would be interested in that way.

I want to give everyone an insight into why many nudists feel the way they do in regards to swingers, this is something that I can come at from multiple directions, on the one front being involved in nudism as a naturist organization President, from a second direction of seeing the effect that those who are involved in swinging as well as naturism that don't keep the two separate have had for couples who are involved in naturism where one of the spouses are reluctant, and from a third direction of being a parent.

Well let’s just take these one by one:

Angle #1 As the President of a naturist organization I have several issues or basis of issues with swingers/swinging (don’t start the hypocrite, burn him chants yet hear me out on this).

Issue 1: My member’s safety and comfort

As the President of our organization I am the top person of the four Officers of our organization who is ultimately responsible for everyone’s comfort and well being at our events, my members do not come to our events looking for sex, a hook up, a play friend whatever you want to call it, my members come to our events because they feel that the naturist/nudist way of life is a healthier and better way of life, they come to be in the company of like minded people, and they come to our events because it is a FAMILY FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT that is safe for the WHOLE FAMILY. I have had three fights break out because of swinging nudists/nudist swingers, all three fights were started by the swinger nudist/nudist swinger after being told off by the parties they choose to hit on/make advances on. These fights have endangered the safety of my members, not to mention upset them and made them feel uncomfortable. That is not what they are there for.

Issue 2: Loss of members

In the 4 years I have been involved with our organization I have lost 15 members due to swinging nudists/nudist swingers because it bothered them that much that someone made advances on them, or in five of the cases because the wives of the couples we have lost having what they feared nudism to be about happening to them. One of the five couples left our organization due to getting hit on by someone at our event who was not even a member of our organization but there as a guest, the remaining four couples have encountered swinging nudist/nudist swingers elsewhere and have choose to leave the naturists lifestyle because of it, and then of the remaining five I now have 5 husbands who now attend our events without their wives because of swinging nudists/nudist swingers.

Issue 3: False Advertising by Swingers Club

There are several places close by that are; either Swinger friendly or outright swinger that advertise themselves as nudist resorts and then there is the national scene where you have two * so called FAMILY FRIENDLY* nudist resorts (Caliente and Paradise Lakes) that either turn a blind eye to swinging and swingers (Paradise Lakes) or are affiliating themselves with swing clubs and hosting the swing clubs events there at their facilities (Caliente) and yet they still call and advertise themselves as being FAMILY FRIENDLY NUDIST RESORTS. Lets call a spade a spade here, if you knowingly allow swinging to occur on your property you ARE NOT a nudist resort you are a swing club drop the words nudist resort from your website, remove yourself from nudist resort listings and advertise yourself truthfully.

Some examples of organizations billing themselves as nudists that are anything but:
Natural Pines (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Missouri billing themselves as nudist)
Cherry Lane Nudist Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Michigan same thing)
Live Oak resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Texas Nudist same thing)
Ponderosa Sun Club: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Indiana same thing)
Sea Mountain Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in California same thing)
Pleasure Grove: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Georgia same thing)
Northhaven Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Michigan same thing)
Sun Aura: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Indiana same thing)

Now here is Heather’s and my take on nudism and swinging:

We DO NOT mix nudism with swinging when we are at a NUDIST RESORT or CLUB. No matter how much we may like a couple at a nudist event looks wise or personality wise, we DO NOT mention our involvement in swinging.

If a SWING CLUB is okay with us being nude there be it in the pool, clubhouse or whatever then we will be nude if that is okay.

We keep both lifestyles separate; we DO NOT and WILL NOT mix them, and think that most nudists who are not involved in swinging would be much more tolerant of the ones who are if they would keep the two separate like they should be.

Angle # 2: Spouses who won’t participate in naturism any longer

In my position as President of our organization I field over the course of a year probably an average of 10 to 20 inquires where the wife refuses to participate in naturism any more due to swinging nudists/nudist swingers. (See Angle # 1, Issue # 2 ) I have four naturists friends who their wife’s and children used to participate in naturism with them but don’t now because of a swinging nudist/nudist swinger. I see numerous postings on the zillion nudist boards and groups I belong to net wise, talking about the same thing. I have just in my four years of being with my organization 18 couples that I have been in contact with who like me said I am not going to go unless you go, who used to go to nudist events with their spouses but again don’t anymore due to swinging nudist/nudist swingers. That right there is 36 possible members to our organization that won’t occur due to swinger nudists/nudist swingers (Again see Angle #1, Issue #2)

Angle # 3 As a parent

As a parent there are certain things I do not want my children to see or hear yet. When my wife and I take our children to a nudist resort we do not want them to see two adults making out, having sex, seeing evidence of said activities (used condoms, discarded sex toys). In front of our children my wife and I are very G-Rated, if you see a PDA between my wife and I when our children are around it is very G-Rated a quick kiss on the lips or cheek, holding hands, etc. Our PG and PG-13 and beyond rated activities and PDA are reserved for either when the children are sleeping, in the privacy of our bedroom, or when our children are not here, and to be quite honest when the kids aren’t here there isn’t really anyplace that is off limits to us and we thoroughly enjoy making lines from movies and songs that we have heard to take on a whole new personal meaning for us but that only occurs when the kids are not here or in the privacy of our bedroom. (Think the song Cherry Pie by Warrant, the line “and Dear God please forgive Mr. Sprock and I for the fornication that took place on this very table this morning- Where the Heart Is (a movie).

If you want to swing that is fine but my wife and I do not want our children exposed to it by YOU (not referring to you here Lee, but swingers in general) and I do not want them exposed to it at a nudist resort. I am willing to say that I can be quite sure that this runs true for most parents who bring their children to nudist resorts. This is kind of a Angle 1 and Angle 3 issue here as well, some resorts/clubs will call the police on you if your behavior warrants it unfortunately there are some Cops and Law Enforcement officials who see children being around naked adults as being child abuse, getting a call for something of a sexual nature occurring and then the cops seeing children there only strengthens that view and only adds fuel to the fire of organizations that want places such as ours (nudist resorts) shut down.

Long and Short: Sex and Sexual Activities is something for consenting adults to engage in and for said activities to occur in the presence of consenting adults be it in the privacy of their bedroom, a swingers club, or hotel room.

Sorry for the long response and hope I made sense to everyone.

OKAY now everybody light the torches, sharpen the pitchforks, and start throwing the rotten tomatoes and lettuce at me crying at the top of your lung that I am a HYPOCRITE.

George and Heather

[sexcupid]

My sweetie and I are also nudists. Not as involved as you are...but we enjoy going to the beach and lake to get naked and relax.

Now, for our own personal comfort level...if we were to go to a resort or activity...we would not be going to one that is family friendly. Do I let my kids run around the house naked? Sure. I want them to be comfortable in their skin and know that being naked is nothing to be ashamed of. Do I want to put them on display? No, I want them to be old enough to make that choice themselves. I do not question others choice to participate in that lifestyle with their entire family...it's just not my choice. I agree that I wouldn't want my kids stumbling across used condoms and toys in that situation either.

I know that a few years back Hippie Hollow (in Austin) used to be 'family friendly' but for whatever reason it is now 18 and over. I wasn't able to find anything except a wikipedia article that said it's been since the late 1990's that it was specified to be 18-over.

Part of it may be the fact that they don't screen at the gate for 'real' nudists vs. what we call 'vultures' (the ones that don't even take their shirts off on a 100 degree day and hide out along the treeline checking out the naked people...and once they know they've been spotted...they 'fly off' and land somewhere else to watch for a while).

As you mentioned your members being scared off or being made uncomfortable by the swinging members or guests in your group...while I agree that these lifestyles shouldn't necessarily collide and should be compartmentalized to a degree...there are just people out there that can't quite separate being naked without thinking of it as sexual. It's in our SLS profile that we like to do naked things...and we've had a few people tell us 'well I couldn't do that'. They don't say 'we can't play with you because of that'...I guess it's all a perspective thing. lol

BTW, I really enjoyed reading your post on the subject...very informative and good perspective from someone who is involved in both activites.

[knb2004]

George and Heather-
Interesting post.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call us full fledged nudists, but we do go to a nude beach near our home frequently during the warm weather months. In our experience, we have met a LOT of folks there who are swingers. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it may even rise to the level of a majority, but in no way have I done any polls, and that may be skewed by the fact that we usually hang out near the hedo group.

That having been said, other than a little grab-ass going on (but for the nudity nothing more inappropriate than you might see at a normal textile beach), we have to date never witnessed any inappropriate behavior. We have heard, and participated in, conversations that would not be appropriate for some audiences, but again we've also heard some of that going on at "vanilla" places as well. I've heard rumors that sometimes during the later hours it can get more "playful" but I can neither confirm nor deny that.

I understand you do not want to lose members because non-swingers have issues with swingers, but it seems to me simply being "hit on", presuming that it was polite, respectful, and that as always, no means no, is an awfully thin reason for someone to abandon the nudist lifestyle. I wonder if, perhaps, some of those folks who left were marginal to begin with, with one spouse who was into it, and another who went along to keep their other half happy, but was quite happy to find a "good excuse" to say no mas? No excuse for starting a fight, of course, but I wonder if rather than a polite "No thank you, we don't roll that way." the response was more like "Fuck you, pervert."

We've seen <18 yo folks there, personally I'm not thrilled about that, as cupid said I think it's something they should be the ones to decide once they've reached an age that they're capable of making such decisions. Not too many, though, for whatever reason.

I can't find fault with your point about what is really a swing club advertising itself as "Family Friendly". I suppose they do it because they feel it will get them more business, but if there truly is enough demand for it to really be a swing club, it seems to me that truth in advertising won't hurt. I suppose a case could be made IF (and I have no knowledge if this is true or not) a place is "family friendly" during published, set hours, and swing-play friendly during others.

Lastly, I am of the opinion that the swinging "lifestyle" is growing, and that more and more people are finding it an acceptable way of living their lives. I think as that happens, we may see increased conflict with non-swinging nudists. It seems a logical extension that people who like to get naked with, and have sex with, other people than their spouse, they might also want to get naked with other people even if there is no sex involved, expected, or appropriate. Not everyone to be sure, but I'd guess a lot.

Random musings...

Mr. knb

[VegasLee]

geo92980,

I will agree pretty much 100% with what you have said above. I have seen many "nudist" places start allowing and promoting to Swingers over the years. In talking to the owners of many of those places they explained that there are two main reasons that they started doing that. 1. Many of their nudist members over the years became swingers. 2. The nudists no longer was supporting the "business" so they had to expand outside of their prime purpose.

I also agree that once they promote to swingers they should stop saying they are family friendly and should set a legal age limit on their place so that kids are not present.

The Swingers club I have been at for years bought the property next to them to put a buffer between them and new houses being built. They spent close to One Million dollars and put in a nice little nudist grounds there. No Swinging allowed. They found out fast that the nudists are tougher to deal with then the swingers. The nudists would complain about everything and even at paying $10 a day to use the place. Many of those same nudists would publicly condemn and start unfounded rumors about the swingers club next door because they did not believe in Swinging yet many of them would come to the Swingers club at night. There are nudists all over the country that slammed our "nudist" place because it was owned by a swing club even though there as no connection. Different managers and rules where enforced, no swinging at the nudist camp. They made up their mind without ever checking the place out. After four years of it, closed it down and rented out all the units. No some great people live in a place that was built for nudists.

On a weekly basis there are some "nudists" that spend a lot of time in Swingers chat rooms slamming our club because they came there as nudists and did not find enough "naked" people for their liking. We have asked them if they are swingers and they tell us no but they slam our place anyway without telling the rest of the people they are not swingers. They tell others they are only looking for naked people, just that our club sucks because it was not what THEY WANTED IT TO BE.

Should Swingers go to true nudists camps and hit on people, hell no. They are just as wrong as the other side condemning Swingers when then don't know anything about that lifestyle either.

It is about human and lifestyle respect. Nothing more. It is and should not be one group against the other. It should be people respecting each others choices in life and not pushing one's choices on the other.

Many things really don't mix well and everyone should respect that. At the same time no one should be speaking poorly of the other without good knowledge of what they are speaking of but that is in a perfect world and we all know that is not going to happen.

You brought up some great points and I hope that many take notice of them and use the respect that is deserved by all lifestyles when deciding what they are going to do.

It would be great if as some say here, Can't we all just get along" but in the real world, it just does not happen. There are people on all sides that live for the drama and they are going to keep it going.

[jnbsmokin]

Well said!!! We are partial nudists at home. We have a son, so mommy at least keeps on a sports bra and boxers/shorts, but the boys can go as free as they choose. We want to go to resorts and have worried over "that grey area". We are firm in nudity and the human body being a natural thing, but we also feel it's important to teach when it's acceptable. You know, like the clothes come on when people come over, and no going bare in stores. That sort of thing. But thank you for pointing things out, although I really could not imagine people not seeing the common sense difference...

I guess some just equate nudity with sex....


There was a question about when it's wrong to be nude at home/around your children on aff. Lets just say I got a lot of bad ratings for that... lol Obviously they believe people should only be nude during sex and that it's nasty or even abusive if there are any children over the age of 3 around.
I am wondering if you may have links to real nudist resorts, maybe around the DE, MD, DC, VA, or TN areas?
We are from the east TN mountains and go back several times a year to see his daughter.

[NumbskullsX2]

I believe this "swingers vs. nudists" thing is a case of overlapping groups. Not all nudists are swingers, not all swingers are nudists. Anybody who doesn't renew their membership in an organization simply because they have been "aproached" by swingers is probably too thin-skinned to be in that organization in the first place.

There have been numerous accounts of pedophiles being associated with "family friendly" nude organizations. How many members have you lost because of that association?

You mentioned Cherry Lane and Paradise Lakes, both clubs we have visited and enjoyed. But we were far more comfortable at Cherry Lane because they didn't allow children on the premises. It's fairly well accepted by those in law enforcement that one of the ways pedophiles operate is by conditioning children to believeing that "it's OK to be naked". That may be true in an adult, philosophical way, but with children, especially those approaching puberty, those lines become blurred. If my kids want to become nudists, they'll have their whole lives to be so, starting when they're young adults. For right now, I want them to be uncomfortable around strangers, especially strangers who are naked, and who tell them it's OK for them to be naked also.

You said that you "don't mix nudism with swinging" Well, there are things WE don't mix also, such as "nudism" and "raising our children"

[petercooper]

Issue 3: False Advertising by Swingers Club

There are several places close by that are; either Swinger friendly or outright swinger that advertise themselves as nudist resorts and then there is the national scene where you have two * so called FAMILY FRIENDLY* nudist resorts (Caliente and Paradise Lakes) that either turn a blind eye to swinging and swingers (Paradise Lakes) or are affiliating themselves with swing clubs and hosting the swing clubs events there at their facilities (Caliente) and yet they still call and advertise themselves as being FAMILY FRIENDLY NUDIST RESORTS. Lets call a spade a spade here, if you knowingly allow swinging to occur on your property you ARE NOT a nudist resort you are a swing club drop the words nudist resort from your website, remove yourself from nudist resort listings and advertise yourself truthfully.

Some examples of organizations billing themselves as nudists that are anything but:
Natural Pines (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Missouri billing themselves as nudist)
Cherry Lane Nudist Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Michigan same thing)
Live Oak resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Texas Nudist same thing)
Ponderosa Sun Club: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Indiana same thing)
Sea Mountain Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in California same thing)
Pleasure Grove: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Georgia same thing)
Northhaven Resort: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Michigan same thing)
Sun Aura: (NudistParks.NET - Find a Nudist Park in Indiana same thing)

My general opinion on the "clubs" you mention is that they want to affliliate with the AANR and do so they have to have that "family" thing somewhere in their operating procedures...

as far as Caliente and Paradise Lakes they maintain/retain their AANR membership because AANR needs them for the $$ they generate period and so they turn their head and hold their nose and dont do any thing....I call that at least a "paper tiger" and at worse out right lie...

[sexcupid]

Also, in defense of Live Oak resort here in Texas...their homepage lists them as Lifestyle-friendly, Adult-oriented, clothing-optional.

We've never been...I just wanted to clarify that they aren't necessarily promoting themselves at family friendly...or not swinger-friendly. They seem to cater specifically to the nudist/swinger crowd.

[darlindebi]

We would be characterized as 100% nudist and 50% Swingers. We love our time at our "family friendly" camp. My wife is adament that the two lifestyles never interact. My feelings are that whatever happens behind closed doors should be respected. We have never openly approached a couple at our camp, nor do we flaunt our swinger activities. It's all a matter of respecting each other's lifestyle.

[ownerspet]

Originally Posted by sexcupid

No, I want them to be old enough to make that choice themselves. I do not question others choice to participate in that lifestyle with their entire family...it's just not my choice.

Me and the Mrs are planning to visit a quote "swinger friendly nudist resort" this year. As a result: I have to start by saying that, this is really interesting because I have heard that several nudist resorts don't want swingers, and I had thought that it was out of respect for nudists that don't engage in swinging. Which to me sort of seems like bringing sex into the work place: To put it short, it appears to be considered offensive behavior for swingers having sex in front of nudists who are there for alternative reasons. So I respect that, and I respect the rules that they choose to have.

Although, You may need to discount this next section, as me and the mrs don't have kids and we have chosen not to have kids: In the past, I figured there were parents that the entire family engaged in nudism, but I had just never had anyone out right, refer to it as a "Family Freindly Activity."

However, maybe I'm slightly more narrower than I thought, but realize this is my stance on anything involving setting values or life guidelines in kids or any other group of beliefs. I feel like kids shouldn't be at a nudist resort (wether there is open sexual activity or not), because I find it hard to believe that at 10 or 12 years old (younger or older), that I or any of my friends at this age would be able to understand the benefits of being a naturist. I am not arguing to open up all nudists to swingers, but as a pre-teen or teenager you sure wouldn't be able to sell me on "everyone runs around naked, but there is nothing sexual." Furthermore, it would take greater effort to convince me that kids younger than this made a decision to engage in nudism under their own understanding and knowledge. I believe kids shouldn't be put in an activity that is this out of the norm (I don't usually go with norms), but in situations in which kids don't understand or could really misunderstand the benefits completely I have no choice. I think with every activity the information should be presented to kids or anyone, and they should be allowed to choose (unless it's something that will get them killed). However, if kids don't understand why they are engaging in an activity, they sometimes do things blindly out of expectations. Just for the record this is my stance on religion to, as I feel like I was brainwashed from the religion side.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but thats my view on it.

That's my I guess slightly more than 2 cents....

[JustAskJulie]

This is a good thread. I always like it when we can take a look at things from different angles. I don't have a problem with nudism and family. There are many nudist resorts that are dedicated to being family friendly and I am ok with that. Those aren't the nudist resorts I am likely to visit. I have visited ONE and it was the first one I ever visited (Turtle Creek in MI), and I just didn't feel comfortable. That was so long ago I can't honestly remember if we were even swinging yet at the time.

I completely see where you are coming from with your feelings about not mixing the two lifestyle and that if they are mixed it should be advertised appropriately as NOT family friendly. To me the idea of having a swinger friendly FAMILY nudist resort is an oxymoron at best and the owners are just freaking MORONS. At worst, I don't even want to think about the people who will bring their children into that atmosphere.

In the other thread I had posted regarding a group on SLS that had advertised they were visiting a nudist resort here in AL that is family friendly and that is NOT swinger friendly to the point that they will ban people if they so much as find out they are swingers. My issue with this was not with the nudist resort but with tihs group who is going to this resort as a swinger group KNOWING that is not swinger friendly and they are not wanted there. I do have a small issue with the idea that the owner will ban people for knowing that they are swingers. As we've already discussed there are swingers who are actually NUDISTS and vice versa. I think that those people understand that there should be a line between the two. Banning someone should be on the basis of their actions not just on the idea that they are swingers.

I think that whatever it is that we are doing we need to look at the comfort of others around us and look at the rules that have been set forth to ensure that we aren't taking an attitude that my way or happiness is all that matters.

[NakedInSeattle]

We are avid nudists and active in our nudist club. In addition to all the good comments here, there is one more reason that nudist clubs are (and should be) negative about swinging activities. There are a large number of people - dare I say, fundementalist religous - who think that nudists are all devil worshippers and the nudist club is just an excuse to get together for wild, continuous orgies. Any "sexual" activity even harmless intimate contact just reinforces this feeling and gives them fuel for their diatribes.

Our club is periodically under attack from the local religous folks calling for the authorities to "close down that den of iniquity up on the hill above our good, God-fearing folks." I am always vigilant to make sure neither of my much-enjoyed lifestyles are threatened.

Thanks for all your coments.

[RDfnd]

We were nudists first, initially traveling to clothing optional resorts when our living environment was more restrictive. This eventually lead us to purchase a property that provided the privacy to live naked all the time while at home. Started swinging while still in the U.S. and can't remain as active as we'd like since there are no clubs or many reasonable ways to meet others like minded here in the DR.

We live a little more than an hour from Caliente Caribe (formerly Eden Bay) that now joins Caliente Tampa under the same parent company. There the nudism/ swinging controversy is now in bloom. We have heard that original property owners who are pure nudists are not very pleased when management has made recent efforts to reach out to lifestyle groups for potential participation. Of course, we would love to see that happen and perhaps with time things may move more in that direction. It certainly seems that nudist guests alone can not be profitable since occupancy is almost always low despite the beautiful property, excellent service etc.