Are we more enlightened? (Warning: Analysis mode ahead.)

[knb2004]

OK folks, it's Mr. Knb again, and I'm once again in analysis mode. Hide the women, cover the children, and by all means make sure someone is guarding the sheep. Oh, wait, disregard that last comment. Did I say that out loud???

I've spent a bit of time this weekend reading the Marriage & Divorce section of Yahoo Answers. Now, I suspect that most swinging couples tend to have very good relationships, as Mrs. Knb and I do, which means most of you have probably not been there. It is, for all intents and purposes, almost amateur marriage counseling as most questions revolve around people asking advice about marriage problems.

Now, I don't mean to suggest that most readers of the Swingersboard (or by extension, all successful swingers) are perfect, or have never had marriage problems. I myself am once-divorced, as is Mrs. Knb, and from what I've read that's not an unusual condition for the members of this community. I also know that some folks here have overcome significant issues in their current marriages.

However, what I have read there makes me really wonder if we swingers are, as a whole, actually more enlightened than the general population. I realize that's an arrogant thing to suggest, but the general theme of so many issues at Yahoo seem so completely ridiculous, especially considering how we live our lives.

Consider some of what I read:
- My husband looks at attractive women, lies about it when I confront him, and it pisses me off. What should I do??
- I caught my husband looking at porn, and he didn't even deny it!?! Does this mean I'm not enough for him??
- My husband told me that he's no longer interested in sex, and will not consider seeing a doctor or going to counseling. I can't divorce for at least 10 years and an affair is not an option, what do I do?
- My wife & I have slept in separate bedrooms and haven't had sex in 3 years...
- Other people look at my spouse, and I'm crazy jealous about it....
- (An answer:) I was married 12 years and managed to never let my husband see me nude...
- How can I stop lusting after my husband?

That's probably enough to get my point across, and unfortunately is tilted towards women who have issues with the actions of their men, but is a reasonable cross-section.

Therefore, I submit to you, my humble reader (for those who've made it this far), are we more enlightened? Why or why not? Many of the questions I've highlighted and much of those I haven't involve women offended by their men's behavior, so perhaps it's swinging women who are more enlightened? (although many non-swinging men have an "it's okay for me but not for her" attitude so it may be both, at least to an extent...)

What say you?

Mr. knb

[iapr]

Interesting post there fellow analist, you are I are going to get along just fine here and I hope everyone has their reading glasses adjusted correctly cause this may turn into a wordy thread


I don't think the issue is so much swinging per se but rather some couples have a higher degree of sexual awareness and acceptance of their sexuality as a whole. It just happens that in some of these couples that they go down the path of swinging while others don't.

the question that most caught my eye is if swinging women were more enlighted. If I had to generalise and label I would say on average swinging wives have a higher level of sexual self-awareness and acceptance of their sexuality than do many of their vanilla counterparts.

And I would also generalize that swinging couples on average have a higher degree of sexual communication and awareness as a couple than their vanilla counterparts.


BUT, I don't think swinging is the direct cause and effect. I think swinging is the byproduct and not the cause.

I think this could turn into an interesting thread and I'll stop here for the moment and see where it goes before I get too much more involved in it at this time.

[knb2004]

Originally Posted by iapr

]the question that most caught my eye is if swinging women were more enlighted. If I had to generalise and label I would say on average swinging wives have a higher level of sexual self-awareness and acceptance of their sexuality than do many of their vanilla counterparts.

I think you're absolutely right. It seems to me that women have had it drilled into their heads that expressing and enjoying their sexuality is for men and sluts. Which is why I posed the suggestion that it may be our women (and we all know that women are really in charge in the Lifestyle) who are more enlightened.

Mrs. knb is an extremely sexual creature, and enjoys it very much. She is quite bi-sexual as well, and while I tend to believe most women are to an extent, I think she's ahead of the curve. I mention that not to brag, but to point out that women (in the general population) who accept that they actually like sex seem, unfortunately, to be unusual.

The people who have posted on Yahoo seem to think that life after marriage means their spouses reject even the hint of attraction to other people which seems so totally unrealistic.

Yes, you're right, this could become wordy lol.

Mr. knb

[MRSfun]

Originally Posted by knb2004

Mrs. knb is an extremely sexual creature, and enjoys it very much. She is quite bi-sexual as well, and while I tend to believe most women are to an extent, I think she's ahead of the curve. I mention that not to brag, but to point out that women (in the general population) who accept that they actually like sex seem, unfortunately, to be unusual.

But lets not leave out the fact, that it was men...in society, who wanted that. Thats what you wanted to see throughout time.

It wasn't me, who said you wanted a woman all lady like in public, and a slut in the bedroom.

We knew that, long before most men admitted to it .

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by knb2004

OK folks, it's Mr. Knb again, and I'm once again in analysis mode. Hide the women, cover the children, and by all means make sure someone is guarding the sheep. Oh, wait, disregard that last comment. Did I say that out loud???

Being from Idaho/Montana -- I so want to say something about the sheep, but will keep my mouth shut!!

Originally Posted by knb2004

Now, I don't mean to suggest that most readers of the Swingersboard (or by extension, all successful swingers) are perfect, or have never had marriage problems. I also know that some folks here have overcome significant issues in their current marriages.

You're right about that. Dave and I have had our issues, and they were horrible. We weren't swinging way back then, but we almost split up. It would have been the stupidest move in terms of us, but with careful and open communication, we've obviously jumped that hump.

Originally Posted by knb2004

Consider some of what I read:
- My husband looks at attractive women, lies about it when I confront him, and it pisses me off. What should I do??
- I caught my husband looking at porn, and he didn't even deny it!?! Does this mean I'm not enough for him??
- My husband told me that he's no longer interested in sex, and will not consider seeing a doctor or going to counseling. I can't divorce for at least 10 years and an affair is not an option, what do I do?
- My wife & I have slept in separate bedrooms and haven't had sex in 3 years...
- Other people look at my spouse, and I'm crazy jealous about it....
- (An answer I was married 12 years and managed to never let my husband see me nude...
- How can I stop lusting after my husband?

I caught my husband masturbating... Does that mean I'm not enough for him?
I love questions like this. I don't think Swingers have all the answers by any means, but at least we communicate now so we know that when I see (not catch) him browsing AFF or SLS, it's not something dirty that has to be hid. When my husband looks at another woman, I'm thinking things that vanilla women aren't. I can guarantee you that.

Originally Posted by knb2004

Therefore, I submit to you, my humble reader, are we more enlightened? Why or why not? Many of the questions I've highlighted and much of those I haven't involve women offended by their men's behavior, so perhaps it's swinging women who are more enlightened? (although many non-swinging men have an "it's okay for me but not for her" attitude so it may be both, at least to an extent...)

What say you?

Mr. knb

Respectfully, I don't think we're more enlightened. I do however, think that swinging is an evolution we've come to from the previous "help me" subjects you viewed on Yahoo. I used to be crazy jealous at some situations, but that was me. It was my self-concept and self-esteem talking. Nothing that Dave did or anyone else for that matter contributed to that. We lived that vanilla life for many years before he brought up the idea of swinging to me. It's a crazy long story, but I did a lot of research on my own and we talked for months before we made a first move. I know he'd been thinking about swinging for a very long time and just didn't know how to bring it up. Well, our communication mode has improved about 300% since swinging. I know he looks at AFF and SLS and I know what he's doing and we talk about EVERYTHING and there are no secrets and actually, I feel that evolved from the above situations.

[sweet_tna]

According to Wikipedia:

Enlightenment is a concept in mysticism, philosophy, and psychology

Unfortunately, a description of these concepts is harder to come by. So taking the definition on face value, I don't think swingers posess any higher level of conciouness/mysticism than vanillas. Do we have a particular philosophy? Not really, as we each interpret and enjoy the lifestyle differently. As for psychological enlightenment, I daresay that those terms are somewhat exclusive of each other.

So . . . where does that mean? To me, it means that while swingers may have certain traits and behaviors in common that lead to more successful marriages/relationships, I don't believe them to be exclusively lifestyle traits.

And the same goes for those negative traits. There are couples in the lifestyle that posess those, and therefore are not successful with their relationships or in swinging.


=)

[Chris&Amelia]

Nah, we're not more enlightened. We're simply different.

Sweet pretty much laid it out nicely. Generally speaking, swingers tend to share traits that promote more successful marriages. But I don't believe that we share those traits because we're swingers. A couple that goes out and engages in the lifestyle doesn't automagically make them a more secure couple.

I tend to think that, generally speaking, that people with those successful traits just gravitate towards it. I think it's generally agreed that those who are successful swingers are secure and happy in their relationship in the first place, and that swinging just enhanced it.

[Trace Ekies]

In our opinion, you have to be "enlightened" to some degree to be successful at our hobby.

It requires a confidence that is born from trust in each other that is developed over years. We have worked at it for years and have come to a point in our relationship where we can look forward to helping the other spend time usually held only for the spouse with someone else's spouse. (Say that three times fast).

It seems to me that a great number of people look at sex in such a way that confuses the issue. In swinging, we have had anonymous sex with people we barely knew and something more personal with close friends. In our personal relationship we have something we call "Making Love" that can only happen between two people who are in love the way we are. This is not meant to reduce what we have had with others, it is meant to elevate what we have on a personal level. (I sure hope I haven't offended anyone).

Now that I've muddied the waters...

[iapr]

Ok, I had to take a look for myself and went into Yahoo Answers and saw the discussions there.


And yes, we are more enlightened here and thank God for that.

[LikeMinds321]

knb2004~

What I'd like to know is what advice was given to those who posted those questions on Yahoo Answers?

The advice offered would say a lot too, about how non-swingers (presuming most who offer advice on that forum aren't swingers) see a solution for these problems.

LM

P.S. I don't think swingers are any more enlightened than non-swingers. On a forum for people with marriage problems, it may seem that way, but look around here and you'll find plenty of swingers who have marriage problems.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by LikeMinds321

knb2004~

What I'd like to know is what advice was given to those who posted those questions on Yahoo Answers?

If you've never visited Yahoo Answers... that alone can be enlightening...lol. I visit it pretty regularly and try to look for questions on swinging to answer. Based on the typical responses I see given to those questions, I can assume that the divorce/marriage questions in general are getting the same very UNenlightened responses. Typically, the answers (much like the questions) are not very thought out. To a question of "I caught my husband looking at porn" I would easily see some responses of "you need to leave him he's got a porn addiction". Why anyone uses that site to get advice I'll never know.

Originally Posted by iapr

BUT, I don't think swinging is the direct cause and effect. I think swinging is the byproduct and not the cause.

I tend to agree with this statement. I do think that swingers as a whole are more open-minded (aka enlightened, at least in my book), but I don't necessarily think that it comes from swinging. We have to already be enlightened to swing to begin with (or even consider it).

I was raised very religious, although I can't say I ever really 100% bought into it. Although, at the same time my mom was trying to cram religion down my throat she was also always telling me to think for myself and to do what was right for me. (I don't think she meant it the way I took it). I was always sexually open (probably started as a rebellion) and when I was young I was not the most faithful girlfriend in the world, but I always thought "well once I get married then that will be THE ONE and he'll be enough". Then I got married and my husband expressed to me that he had participated in 3somes and he had a couple of copies of swinger magazines around the house, so I looked at them. We talked about it and that was the end of the idea of one person being enough, or of me thinking that one person had to be. I grew from there.

Now, instead of getting mad when he looks at other women, I get mad when he doesn't point them out to me!

[pervgeeks]

I've never gotten the vanilla woman mindset and I was technically a "vanilla woman" myself for many years. I was married to my first husband for 13 years. I was only 18 when we met and had some sexual experience, but no swinging or group experience, but I did have fantasies (had no idea where to go with them). He was a good lover, but not open at all. I initiated porn, told me how much it turned me on to hear about his past sexual experiences, initiated every new thing- from watching each other masturbate (took him ten years to do that one ), the very rare anal, and swallowing (he felt he was degrading me by that). I kept trying to insert fantasies about bringing other women into our bed ("That's cheating!"). Not only that, he'd get angry and yell if he saw me look at another man for too long. He'd even get angry at me if a man hit on me. I will never understand this level of insecurity.

I was a closeted bisexual nymphomaniac trapped in a vanilla marriage with a man who could pleasure me, but felt guilty about anything with just the slightest amount of kink to it. The funny thing is that I never cheated, but he did once. What ultimately did us in was other things, but I think I've been a swinger since puberty. I just never had a name or opportunity until I was single again in my early 30's. With my second husband, I was a freak from the start and I don't think I could go back to vanilla if I tried.

[cubnamy1995]

OK, I'm going to say that swingers are not more enlightened, they are just more willing to take the green-eyed monsters by the horns and beat them. I doubt that any of us have lived our entire lives free of insecurities. Our puritanical culture teaches us that sex is bad, and due to lack of education, we are taught nothing of how to deal with those insecurities come up. But lifestylers are more willing to throw caution to the wind and face our fears. That does require something that most don't possess. But evolved? I think maybe we have a little bit more honest view of human nature, and are not afraid to look at the world as it really is. I'm yet to meet a timid swinger. Maybe that is the difference.

[havefuninsun]

Originally Posted by cubnamy1995

OK, I'm going to say that swingers are not more enlightened, they are just more willing to take the green-eyed monsters by the horns and beat them.

But I think this DOES make you enlightened.

I'm not saying that there are not vanilla couples that are also enlightened. And by enlightened, I mean that they have figured out how to have a good relationship -- COMMUNICATE. Communications makes ALL the difference in the world. If you can communicate about having sex with others, I can't imagine there would be any other subject that is not off limits.

It's like, the light bulb went off one day and I realized that if I can just openly and honestly COMMUNICATE, the world could be my oyster (pun intended? hmmm ... )

So I vote Yes. We are all that and a bag of chips ... as well as enlightened.

[cubnamy1995]

Originally Posted by havefuninsun

So I vote Yes. We are all that and a bag of chips ... as well as enlightened.

I do agree that you are all that and a bag of chips!