Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical?

iapr · 03-17-2008, 12:53 AM

Every now and then everyone needs to get their reality compass recalibrated and I am wondering if you can give me a little reality check here. I'll take a kick upside the head to reset the mechanism if that is what is needed.

This is a bit of a spinoff of Julie's "what does it take....?) thread and instead of going off on that thread I figured I'd come out and ask here.

A little background info, we have been in the LS a couple years and during that time we have had some good successes and have had quite a few dead-ends and strike outs and have even fallen on our face a few times but (knock on wood) no real disasters and dramas.

Recently I feel like we got kicked in the teeth a bit over this whole "friendship" thing in the lifestyle and were treated somewhat disrespectfully by an experienced couple active in the lifestyle (if they were newbs I'd understand) that essentially looked down their noses at us and pretty much treated us like scum because we don't try to actively pursue or maintain any ongoing "friendships". Now we do consider ourselves friendly and sociable people and we really do have a number of people that we do honestly like and appreciate but we are not in a position in life where we are able to see people regularly and participate in multiple facets of anyone elses life. We only have a handfull of hours to go out a month and when we go out we go out with the hopes of having an encounter of some kind. If a true friendship develops over time fine but if not that's ok too.

Anyway, I don't care about the couple that gave us the crap but it did cause me to do a little soul searching and something dawned on me. All of the horror stories that I have heard firsthand in the LS as well as what I read on this board and several others have come from people getting too involved with others and not from casual encounters. In other words it's the friendship side of house that is in disorder and not the "lets meet and hook-up" crowd that is having the drama.

So my questions are these, I am just seeing what I want to see and trying to justify my belief that keeping it casual is a valid way to avoid disorder and drama? Or am I just getting cynical and taking a sour grapes point of view since I don't want to go down the friendship road?

And along with that, I am actually on to something here from a risk management point of view? Are all these people that say they want to play it safe and take it slow and "get to know" people actually the ones who are putting themselves and their marriages at the most actual risk more than the ones who are just going out and looking for a hookup that night?

I'd really like to hear some diverse thoughts on this and from some different perspectives. I'd welcome thoughts from newbies as well as vets. and I'd really like to hear from some contemporary "lifestylers" as well as some of the traditional swingers like Vegas Lee, JustaskJulie et al.

Thanks for any thoughts you can share

couple85602 · 03-17-2008, 01:02 AM

The casual encounters you have (those who are not friends) are rarely heard from again. So, if they DID have any drama (and they do too) you would never hear about it. Those that you have repeatedly met are those that you would hear about.
Having said that, we have found some folks who cannot understand why our lives get in the way of play so much. Trust me ... if things like work, family and monthly cycles were never a part of our lives, we might attend more functions. But those things do happen. I worry about the folks that arrange their lives around playing instead of the other way around.

K and D

VegasLee · 03-17-2008, 02:31 AM

You Rang?

I have been saying for years that the casual way of keeping things lead to much less drama. Have made many posts about it in these forums. Since all this "friends first or friends forever" thing started there has been much more drama in the lifestyle and also many more relationship problems. Divorce rate has risen, couples splitting, drama in the clubs.

I personally don't feel you are wrong at all and you don't need to be kicked. Do what works for you. You like keeping it casual, do it. Those that want to deal with all the other stuff can do that also, it just is not for us either.

We like keeping it simple. We have friends in the lifestyle we have known for well 10 years or more but we never go out looking to make new friends. True friends are very, very hard to find and most often I am not going to find them in the club. I am there to party. If we become friends, cool, if not, we had a good time and all is well.

***JustAskJulie*** · 03-17-2008, 01:25 PM

I have seen plenty of negative experiences in the "let's just do it" crowd but I do think that often it's easier to move past those and turn them into learning experiences. This is probably because when you are dealing with more in-depth relationships you are much more wrapped up in the situation emotionally and therefore it's harder to extricate yourself from the situation and get to the point (quickly) where you can look back at it as a learning experience.

**good times** · 03-17-2008, 03:00 PM

It will come as a surprise to no one I am sure, that I agree with VegasLee. while we have made a few great friends through swinging, that isn't what we are here for, nor is it something we actively pursue. If it happens, that is fine with us, but we are primarily into this for the sex.

An odd thing we noticed several years ago was that, once we became friends with someone, the desire to have sex with them usually goes away.

And while Julie has a good point about casual encounters not always being so red hot either, in our experience, the bad casual encounters we have had usually involved lack of compatibility or a play partner that wasn't really ready for swinging yet. Like she said, easy to chalk up to experience and move on from. Whereas, the bad encounters we have experienced with friends usually included much more personal drama and often resulted in a prolonged crisis or even losing a good friendship.

VegasLee · 03-17-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good times

An odd thing we noticed several years ago was that, once we became friends with someone, the desire to have sex with them usually goes away.

I totally agree with that statement! That is why we say have sex first and if you become friends later cool, that way you don't miss out on some good sex.

We have some very long terms friend in this lifestyle and I have trouble remembering the last time we had sex with them.

I guess the old saying "Don't fuck your friends" holds true in more then one way.

**lustylearning** · 03-17-2008, 06:43 PM

iapr, we've only been in the LS a little over a year, but based on our experiences thus far, your observations are on target. What drama we have experienced has been from longer-term friends with whom a disconnect developed over reasonable expectations. We have also had a couple of "learning experiences" with other folks with whom there has been no repeat play (JustAskJulie put it well when she pointed out that it's easier to move beyond these because of their short-term nature).

Regarding cynicism... I think the question ultimately becomes how much time and effort are you willing to put into "friendship" with other lifestylers. Every couple will have a different answer, which no other couple can judge. As couples, we have to do what works for us, not what works for others. And if we can rise above the judgments of those outside the LS, surely we can rise above the judgments of those within.

**LFM2** · 03-17-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good times

It will come as a surprise to no one I am sure, that I agree with VegasLee. while we have made a few great friends through swinging, that isn't what we are here for, nor is it something we actively pursue. If it happens, that is fine with us, but we are primarily into this for the sex.

It really shouldn't be a surprise that we side with Vegas Lee as well. We're in this for the variety of sex and how much fun we can have. We like to have friends, but it's not something we really want to pursue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by good times

An odd thing we noticed several years ago was that, once we became friends with someone, the desire to have sex with them usually goes away.

Ain't this the damn truth!?!

We love our friends in this lifestyle, and there are tons of friends that we've never had sex with and the more that we get to know them, the more we don't want to have sex with them. Weird, but true.

**TNT** · 03-18-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iapr

Recently I feel like we got kicked in the teeth a bit over this whole "friendship" thing in the lifestyle and were treated somewhat disrespectfully by an experienced couple active in the lifestyle (if they were newbs I'd understand) that essentially looked down their noses at us and pretty much treated us like scum because we don't try to actively pursue or maintain any ongoing "friendships".

I'm curious about this other couples non-swinging life.

What I've noticed with those that say they want to be "friends" as well as playmates and get upset because you don't pursue it as well, is that they rarely have anything else going on in their every day life.

We've made some lifelong friends through swinging and the reason being is that they understand our life outside of swinging and we understand theirs. As other's have said (Lee and GT) it's rare to never that we play with these friends.

For us, there are basically three different categories of those we play with.

1. The causal encounter. We might or we might not ever see/play with these people again.

2. Fuck buddies. These are people that we seem to see quite a bit at different functions...house parties, socials, clubs. They're also people that we know we can call up (or they call us ) at just about anytime and say "Hey, we're horny. Want to get together for some fun?" They know a bit about our non-swinging lives, as we do about their's but, the basis of the "friendship" is sex.

3. Friends met through swinging. These people know a lot about our lives and we know a lot about their's. We spend time with them doing non-swinging stuff as well as swinging stuff. We may or we may not play with them. Sex may have been what brought us together but, it's not the basis of the friendship. They get our non-swinging life and we get their's. They've become the kind of friends we can call up just to say "I'm having a bad day" and they listen and offer advice and understanding. These people mean something to us. We can be ourselves around them without any worries.

For us, we've found a good balance, one that works well with our real life and our swinging life and is drama free.

Teresa

**Pepper & Drew** · 03-18-2008, 08:18 PM

I guess we're riding the middle on this. We have close swinger friends and casual swinger friends, but we don't have to become friends with people to play. We didn't set out to become really good friends, but over time, we've gotten to know each other and really enjoy each other's company, whether there's playtime involved or not.

We don't particularly care for very casual encounters, (the stop, drop, and fuck encounters, as a friend of ours says) but there have been times when we certainly weren't BFF with people before playing. (Um, what was the name of the guy I was blowing? He told me, but I can't remember....LOL) I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we'd rather fuck strangers over people we've gotten to know a little bit more. Every situation where we've said, 'oh crap, how the hell are we going to get out of this situation?' has been in an encounter with someone we just met.

As for more drama with friends, it doesn't seem to be any more drama than with vanilla friends. We know which of our friends are truly close, and which are good fuck buddies (like TNT said). The one difference that we have is that we still play with the close friends.

Hell, I don't look down on any couple for playing how they want to play and making their own decisions about whether they want to be friends or just people that say hi at the social. But, I don't want them looking down on us just because we tend to move a little slower.

Pepper

The Fuse · 03-18-2008, 08:50 PM

Being friends or (gasp!) emotionally close with playmates does make things more complicated.

I think there is room for all styles -- casual encounters at the club or party all the way to full-blown poly. No one should give you crap for the particular way you want to do things, as long as you know what your way is, clearly communicate it, and are consistent about it. Sounds like you have all of those things in order, so more power to ya.

In the past year, Mr. Fuse has developed a loving relationship with another woman (and I with her and her husband), and has also had a great encounter with a woman who afterward needed to ask him his name. It's all good. The key is to manage expectations, in my opinion. In a casual encounter, everyone is expecting just that. When people get close, expectations can diverge and drama can ensue.

So in short, I agree with iapr... it's the "friends crowd" that exposes themselves to issues. Mr. Fuse and I think the rewards are worth the risk, with special people, and we have the time to devote. But if we had kids or something else sucking up all our time and energy (sorry parents -- I hope you know what I mean), we would have different priorities.

**LikeMinds321** · 03-22-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iapr

All of the horror stories that I have heard firsthand in the LS as well as what I read on this board and several others have come from people getting too involved with others and not from casual encounters. In other words it's the friendship side of house that is in disorder and not the "lets meet and hook-up" crowd that is having the drama.

So my questions are these, I am just seeing what I want to see and trying to justify my belief that keeping it casual is a valid way to avoid disorder and drama? Or am I just getting cynical and taking a sour grapes point of view since I don't want to go down the friendship road?

Whether a couple is part of the "friends first" or "lets meet and hook-up" crowd, I think you can come across drama with either. The longer you know someone, spend time around them, the greater the chances that drama can ensue. And it doesn't have to be vanilla/social time either; just running into the same people at the club - whether they are FF or LH-U swingers - heightens the chances for drama.

Drama can occur when you learn more about people, observe their behaviour, and spend more time with them.

I do agree that drama may come up sooner with people who make it very clear in their profiles that FF is crucial for them before playing with people. I think these couples equate time spent getting to know you as an investment in you, and with that can come a misguided sense that they own a part of you. These people probably don't even realize this on a conscious level, nor would admit to it, but I think it can be natural for FF couples to want from you what they feel they've invested of themselves into the development of the relationship. When they see that you aren't invested as much as they are, they feel an imbalance in the relationship and you soon find out they aren't happy.

I also think, as others have said, that the more you know someone the less likely it is that you'll play with them, or if you did play at the start, you're chances of continuing are slim. I feel it is a rare match to find people that you continue to swing with in the lifestyle.

We are not a FF couple, never have been. But we do like to know enough about a couple to feel we are making the right decision to hop into bed with them. When we feel ready to do so, it's usually on the first meet and within a couple hours. There were a few couples where, if we had spent more time with them, we would have decided not to have sex with them...but we were glad we got it in before we learned more.

Most times, when we don't have that "90% sure feeling" that a couple will be a good match for us, we wait. They have always been people we know we'll run into at the club, so we watch them, chat with them, and feel things out a little more. We like doing this, it has saved us from having rendezvouses with couples that we would have later regretted hooking up with.

LM

Ellyanne77 · 03-22-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good times

An odd thing we noticed several years ago was that, once we became friends with someone, the desire to have sex with them usually goes away.

kt_winks93 · 07-28-2008, 07:47 PM

The friends you have had for 10 years, is there still a bit of flirting that goes on between you or isn't strictly no play, no flirt. Kind of vanilla, but in the know.

KT

Chicup · 07-28-2008, 10:51 PM

Being the devil is a personal friend of mine, allow me to be his advocate here.

What you are saying is that people who care about other people tend to have more issues with relationships than those that don't.

Well, yes, of course. Water is wet too.

Someone I don't care about or like, can't hurt me beyond a physical imitate level. Them being a jerk doesn't phase me beyond thinking the guy was a jerk. I can't feel betrayed, ignored, jealous, etc if my swing partner is no closer than a casual acquaintance.

When these close friendships break up, yes the horror stories and hurt can happen. It almost happened with us once and in my cynical period I was close to joining the 'just fuck'em' camp, literally. We did patch things up and are still great friends but it was a close call.

I don't think this is the majority of drama in the lifestyle. These are just the ones that really mean something because of the emotional distress. You can't be hurt by strangers.

But to me the majority of the lifestyle drama is found not between couples but in couples. Be it one member not wanting to swing, one member not handling the jealousy, one member wanting to swing because they are just bored with their spouse etc, and the drama that follows. You also get the affairs, the singles that won't leave you alone, the pain of rejection, the sick of meeting posers and the like.

Likewise, the guy won't take no for an answer, the guy won't stop grabbing my wife, the uninvited hands in the play room, the he can't play but she can, the ... well you get the idea, all have nothing to do with friendship in the lifestyle.

If anything I'd say friendship in the lifestyle problems are really somewhat rare, being that real friends in the lifestyle are seemingly rare for most couples.

I think in your case the issue isn't friendship in the lifestyle at all, but a couple who doesn't like the way you swing being rude about it.

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03-17-2008, 12:53 AM	#1 (permalink)
iapr Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 641 Location: State of bliss Status: couple	Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? Every now and then everyone needs to get their reality compass recalibrated and I am wondering if you can give me a little reality check here. I'll take a kick upside the head to reset the mechanism if that is what is needed. This is a bit of a spinoff of Julie's "what does it take....?) thread and instead of going off on that thread I figured I'd come out and ask here. A little background info, we have been in the LS a couple years and during that time we have had some good successes and have had quite a few dead-ends and strike outs and have even fallen on our face a few times but (knock on wood) no real disasters and dramas. Recently I feel like we got kicked in the teeth a bit over this whole "friendship" thing in the lifestyle and were treated somewhat disrespectfully by an experienced couple active in the lifestyle (if they were newbs I'd understand) that essentially looked down their noses at us and pretty much treated us like scum because we don't try to actively pursue or maintain any ongoing "friendships". Now we do consider ourselves friendly and sociable people and we really do have a number of people that we do honestly like and appreciate but we are not in a position in life where we are able to see people regularly and participate in multiple facets of anyone elses life. We only have a handfull of hours to go out a month and when we go out we go out with the hopes of having an encounter of some kind. If a true friendship develops over time fine but if not that's ok too. Anyway, I don't care about the couple that gave us the crap but it did cause me to do a little soul searching and something dawned on me. All of the horror stories that I have heard firsthand in the LS as well as what I read on this board and several others have come from people getting too involved with others and not from casual encounters. In other words it's the friendship side of house that is in disorder and not the "lets meet and hook-up" crowd that is having the drama. So my questions are these, I am just seeing what I want to see and trying to justify my belief that keeping it casual is a valid way to avoid disorder and drama? Or am I just getting cynical and taking a sour grapes point of view since I don't want to go down the friendship road? And along with that, I am actually on to something here from a risk management point of view? Are all these people that say they want to play it safe and take it slow and "get to know" people actually the ones who are putting themselves and their marriages at the most actual risk more than the ones who are just going out and looking for a hookup that night? I'd really like to hear some diverse thoughts on this and from some different perspectives. I'd welcome thoughts from newbies as well as vets. and I'd really like to hear from some contemporary "lifestylers" as well as some of the traditional swingers like Vegas Lee, JustaskJulie et al. Thanks for any thoughts you can share Last edited by iapr : 03-17-2008 at 01:06 AM.

03-17-2008, 01:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
couple85602 Here to Stay Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Benson, AZ Status: couple SLS Name:spvcouple	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? The casual encounters you have (those who are not friends) are rarely heard from again. So, if they DID have any drama (and they do too) you would never hear about it. Those that you have repeatedly met are those that you would hear about. Having said that, we have found some folks who cannot understand why our lives get in the way of play so much. Trust me ... if things like work, family and monthly cycles were never a part of our lives, we might attend more functions. But those things do happen. I worry about the folks that arrange their lives around playing instead of the other way around. K and D

03-17-2008, 02:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
VegasLee Laura's Male Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,277 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Status: Laura's Male	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? You Rang? I have been saying for years that the casual way of keeping things lead to much less drama. Have made many posts about it in these forums. Since all this "friends first or friends forever" thing started there has been much more drama in the lifestyle and also many more relationship problems. Divorce rate has risen, couples splitting, drama in the clubs. I personally don't feel you are wrong at all and you don't need to be kicked. Do what works for you. You like keeping it casual, do it. Those that want to deal with all the other stuff can do that also, it just is not for us either. We like keeping it simple. We have friends in the lifestyle we have known for well 10 years or more but we never go out looking to make new friends. True friends are very, very hard to find and most often I am not going to find them in the club. I am there to party. If we become friends, cool, if not, we had a good time and all is well. __________________ Lee Lifestyles News *Remember when Swinging was about having sex?*

03-17-2008, 01:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
*JustAskJulie* Your Hostess Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 22,307 Location: Alabama Status: Female SLS Name:swingersboard Blog Entries: 59	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? I have seen plenty of negative experiences in the "let's just do it" crowd but I do think that often it's easier to move past those and turn them into learning experiences. This is probably because when you are dealing with more in-depth relationships you are much more wrapped up in the situation emotionally and therefore it's harder to extricate yourself from the situation and get to the point (quickly) where you can look back at it as a learning experience.

03-17-2008, 03:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
good times Mod Squad Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 6,420 Location: Reno, Nevada Status: Married to Mrs Good Times SLS Name:randp	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? It will come as a surprise to no one I am sure, that I agree with VegasLee. while we have made a few great friends through swinging, that isn't what we are here for, nor is it something we actively pursue. If it happens, that is fine with us, but we are primarily into this for the sex. An odd thing we noticed several years ago was that, once we became friends with someone, the desire to have sex with them usually goes away. And while Julie has a good point about casual encounters not always being so red hot either, in our experience, the bad casual encounters we have had usually involved lack of compatibility or a play partner that wasn't really ready for swinging yet. Like she said, easy to chalk up to experience and move on from. Whereas, the bad encounters we have experienced with friends usually included much more personal drama and often resulted in a prolonged crisis or even losing a good friendship. __________________ R (He is R, she is P)

03-17-2008, 06:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
lustylearning Julie's Helper Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 266 Location: Virginia Status: female half	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? iapr, we've only been in the LS a little over a year, but based on our experiences thus far, your observations are on target. What drama we have experienced has been from longer-term friends with whom a disconnect developed over reasonable expectations. We have also had a couple of "learning experiences" with other folks with whom there has been no repeat play (JustAskJulie put it well when she pointed out that it's easier to move beyond these because of their short-term nature). Regarding cynicism... I think the question ultimately becomes how much time and effort are you willing to put into "friendship" with other lifestylers. Every couple will have a different answer, which no other couple can judge. As couples, we have to do what works for us, not what works for others. And if we can rise above the judgments of those outside the LS, surely we can rise above the judgments of those within.

03-18-2008, 08:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
Pepper & Drew Mmmmm...tasty! Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,024 Location: Hurricane Alley Status: Couple SLS Name:alhedonists	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? I guess we're riding the middle on this. We have close swinger friends and casual swinger friends, but we don't have to become friends with people to play. We didn't set out to become really good friends, but over time, we've gotten to know each other and really enjoy each other's company, whether there's playtime involved or not. We don't particularly care for very casual encounters, (the stop, drop, and fuck encounters, as a friend of ours says) but there have been times when we certainly weren't BFF with people before playing. (Um, what was the name of the guy I was blowing? He told me, but I can't remember....LOL) I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we'd rather fuck strangers over people we've gotten to know a little bit more. Every situation where we've said, 'oh crap, how the hell are we going to get out of this situation?' has been in an encounter with someone we just met. As for more drama with friends, it doesn't seem to be any more drama than with vanilla friends. We know which of our friends are truly close, and which are good fuck buddies (like TNT said). The one difference that we have is that we still play with the close friends. Hell, I don't look down on any couple for playing how they want to play and making their own decisions about whether they want to be friends or just people that say hi at the social. But, I don't want them looking down on us just because we tend to move a little slower. Pepper __________________ "Swinging is a lot like riding a Harley, ...for those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, no explanation is possible." --Mr. Alura

03-18-2008, 08:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
The Fuse Abstraction Distraction Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 672 Location: Southeastern Virginia Status: M. Female SLS Name:The_Fuse	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? Being friends or (gasp!) emotionally close with playmates does make things more complicated. I think there is room for all styles -- casual encounters at the club or party all the way to full-blown poly. No one should give you crap for the particular way you want to do things, as long as you know what your way is, clearly communicate it, and are consistent about it. Sounds like you have all of those things in order, so more power to ya. In the past year, Mr. Fuse has developed a loving relationship with another woman (and I with her and her husband), and has also had a great encounter with a woman who afterward needed to ask him his name. It's all good. The key is to manage expectations, in my opinion. In a casual encounter, everyone is expecting just that. When people get close, expectations can diverge and drama can ensue. So in short, I agree with iapr... it's the "friends crowd" that exposes themselves to issues. Mr. Fuse and I think the rewards are worth the risk, with special people, and we have the time to devote. But if we had kids or something else sucking up all our time and energy (sorry parents -- I hope you know what I mean), we would have different priorities. __________________ The truth is always more interesting that your preconception of what it might be. - Steven Levy

07-28-2008, 07:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
kt_winks93 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1 Location: NW Florida Status: married	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? The friends you have had for 10 years, is there still a bit of flirting that goes on between you or isn't strictly no play, no flirt. Kind of vanilla, but in the know. KT

07-28-2008, 10:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
Chicup Not a potential *** Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,348 Location: Under the bed Status: Tired	Re: Am I really seeing this or am I getting cynical? Being the devil is a personal friend of mine, allow me to be his advocate here. What you are saying is that people who care about other people tend to have more issues with relationships than those that don't. Well, yes, of course. Water is wet too. Someone I don't care about or like, can't hurt me beyond a physical imitate level. Them being a jerk doesn't phase me beyond thinking the guy was a jerk. I can't feel betrayed, ignored, jealous, etc if my swing partner is no closer than a casual acquaintance. When these close friendships break up, yes the horror stories and hurt can happen. It almost happened with us once and in my cynical period I was close to joining the 'just fuck'em' camp, literally. We did patch things up and are still great friends but it was a close call. I don't think this is the majority of drama in the lifestyle. These are just the ones that really mean something because of the emotional distress. You can't be hurt by strangers. But to me the majority of the lifestyle drama is found not between couples but in couples. Be it one member not wanting to swing, one member not handling the jealousy, one member wanting to swing because they are just bored with their spouse etc, and the drama that follows. You also get the affairs, the singles that won't leave you alone, the pain of rejection, the sick of meeting posers and the like. Likewise, the guy won't take no for an answer, the guy won't stop grabbing my wife, the uninvited hands in the play room, the he can't play but she can, the ... well you get the idea, all have nothing to do with friendship in the lifestyle. If anything I'd say friendship in the lifestyle problems are really somewhat rare, being that real friends in the lifestyle are seemingly rare for most couples. I think in your case the issue isn't friendship in the lifestyle at all, but a couple who doesn't like the way you swing being rude about it.

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