Swinging Relationships

[ncmd_couple]

We all found ourselves in the “Lifestyle” in as many different ways as there are individuals and couples in it. Either we started at a club then migrated to swinger sites to augment that, or we found sites like this board and worked into it, or maybe it was a few too many with the right folks that wound up in bed. However we got here, here we are.

Having been “bored” over the last couple of months with lots of free time on my hands I have viewed a lot of profiles in several locals in the country, mainly because we are looking to make a move and I have been checking out the swinger landscape in those areas.

I discovered polyamory before I discovered swinging. And “L” discovered this board looking for swinging topics. I was surprised to find a poly section here as there seems to be a swinger cultural aversion to Poly in a lot of cases. But this is where I made an observation from viewing a lot of profiles.

Just about every profile that I have looked at where a couple was posting the profile, they are looking for friends both in and out of the bedroom. They don’t just want sex, they want to have some common bond between those that they play with. To me, this is understandable; we have a similar statement in our profile.

So this is my thought, I can have just casual sex, and have in the swinger community, but emotionally I prefer to know the person and have some emotional bond with them. Not necessary love which is the true definition of polyamory, but it is a whole lot better if there it more than just a “wham-bam-thank you.” It is good to be able to talk to them afterwards in the warm afterglow.

Are we, as swingers, really looking for relationships that really border more on the poly world, and that those who are in poly relationships really just found those friends with benefits that they really matched up with? Do swingers, not those who are really just looking for pure sex, really have more in common with the poly folks than the pure sex swappers?

S

[des1re06]

Interesting observation.

We have had a few "just sex" encounters, but for the most part, are still good friends with our play partners.

Poly is definately a possibility.

Mrs. D

[Liutas]

I was a man-whore back in the days before I married the Mrs. I find it easy to have "just sex" with a woman. The wife, on the other hand, is not that type, she needs to click, to have some connection, to be friends to some degree. And strangely, although I am comfortable having random, meaningless sex, I am not comfortable with her doing it. I need to feel a report, a bit of a friendship if you will, with the guy. I need to respect him and feel he's worthy of her....ummm.....affections. And yes, I am aware of the double standard involved there, but since we only play together and she has to approve our playmates anyway, the double standard is merely theoretical.

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by Liutas

I was a man-whore back in the days before I married the Mrs. I find it easy to have "just sex" with a woman. The wife, on the other hand, is not that type, she needs to click, to have some connection, to be friends to some degree. And strangely, although I am comfortable having random, meaningless sex, I am not comfortable with her doing it. I need to feel a report, a bit of a friendship if you will, with the guy. I need to respect him and feel he's worthy of her....ummm.....affections. And yes, I am aware of the double standard involved there, but since we only play together and she has to approve our playmates anyway, the double standard is merely theoretical.

Dave is this you? Ok... I know it's not, but you sound just like my husband!! LOL He still is a man-whore in some ways. He tells me the same thing about needing to "connect" with the man before we do anything with the couple. He can have consensual sex with any woman without any afterthoughts, but he must approve of the man and know he is worthy to have me as a partner. We've gotten along with all the couples we've met, but he's very picky about the men in the couples. If they don't meet a certain criteria, they're considered to be friends only. It was nice to meet them, but he doesn't want to pursue anything with them. Does your wife feel the need to have that same rapport with the wife of the couple you're seeing? Just curious!

[socolais]

I think we're somewhere in the middle, certainly not a "friends first" couple, we just prefer friendly people we can communicate with. That way, the vanilla friendship can develop independently from the sexual familiarity. Together, they're great and either one alone is fine too....

[WesternSwing]

I think swingers have more in common with poly folks than they care to admit, and visa-versa. Although many couples join the lifestyle for the sex, one of the most commonly recited reasons for staying in the lifestyle is the social aspect of it - meeting new people and making new friends. And many swingers say over and over how many real friends they have in the lifestyle. Obviously, even on the smallest level there is something there beyond just sex.

I know for us the social aspect of it is a huge reason we love the lifestyle. We have also been involved in one poly-like relationship and we are not opposed to it happening again. And it just happened. We weren't looking for it.

However, we were talking with some other swingers the other night and when the idea of poly or any emotion past sex came up, several in the group were taken aback with shock and horror and made comments such as "if any feelings came up we'd cut it off right there", "I couldn't stand it if my spouse developed feelings for anyone else" and "This is sex only." So there is a big aversion by some in the lifestyle about anything relationship past sex. Yet I don't know why then they put in their profiles "we are looking for someone to hang out with and go camping, etc. etc. etc."

Then on the poly-side there are many that don't view what they do as swinging because "they are are in love and that's different" and they snub their nose up at swingers. We've seen this allot in the poly community in our area, to the point where a couple of the single females in the lifestyle came from the poly community after being disillusioned by it because of the patriarchal nature of it and the snobbery of some.

But yes, I think many swingers are closer to poly than they like to, or will admit because the idea is just plain to scary for them.

[Spoomonkey]

Thanks for starting this thread. This post by Snozz made me think a lot last night about the subject of Poly, and I have to be honest, I really don't think we are as similar as "friends first" makes it sound.

When we first started looking into swinging, we found ourselves at a Poly board. They gently sent us over here after a few posts, knowing that it was more our style. They talked a lot about multiple marriages, living arrangements, etc. Their relationships were a lot more complicated than we were looking for!

We wanted friends, but nothing more than that.

Well... Yeah... We wanted sex, but...

What Poly folks have are living arrangements and emotional connections that are well outside of what even the most ideal swinger situations have. I differentiate it basically by the fact that we don't "love" our playmates. Not saying I am a soulless imp. I care for some of them very deeply and consider a couple of the guys among my best friends (one of them, I would say IS my best friend). I can really see a friendship after swinging has ended (god forbid!!! ).

But do I see myself falling in love? No. I don't see that for me at all. I don't have anything against Poly, but when I try to look at how it would fit in my life, it just doesn't. I can't imagine people moving in - I can't imagine sharing my living space.

I think we are similar in that the "stereotypes" are often wrong. Very few swingers are really looking for "sex only" and most would gladly accept a close friendship. But in the end, there is a pretty big difference between the two.

On the other hand, I do think some folks use "Poly" as a way to justify what they do. I actually learned this on the Poly board when one of the members ranted about how easily and conveniently some Poly people "fall into and out of love."

I think there is definitely an over lap - but this is for folks who really don't know what they are.

Spoomonkey

[ncmd_couple]

Spoomonkey, what are you?

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by ncmd_couple

Spoomonkey, what are you?

I'll venture an answer... he's a purple monkey.

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

However, we were talking with some other swingers the other night and when the idea of poly or any emotion past sex came up, several in the group were taken aback with shock and horror and made comments such as "if any feelings came up we'd cut it off right there", "I couldn't stand it if my spouse developed feelings for anyone else" and "This is sex only." So there is a big aversion by some in the lifestyle about anything relationship past sex. Yet I don't know why then they put in their profiles "we are looking for someone to hang out with and go camping, etc. etc. etc."

In my opinion, a fairly big chunk of these discussions boils down to how people are comfortable viewing themselves. The people referred to above sometimes really want pure playmates with not much of an element of friendship (fine), but seem to want to feel better about themselves by saying they want to be friends. I say, if you don't want to be buddies outside of swinging, that's fine.

Then again, some people seem to have an aversion to the idea of feelings developing, but they spend a lot of time hanging out with their play partners. Well, when you develop a friendship with someone, and you're having sex with them, it's perfectly natural to develop some feelings of affection for them. That doesn't mean you love them or want to move in with them, or even want to be lifelong friends. It doesn't mean your marriage is threatened. It's a gray area. I think people can be perfectly comfortable in this gray area and not have to worry about whether to call it swinging, polyamory, friends with benefits, fuck buddies, or something else.

On the other hand, there are times when definitions matter. When I was in a Womens' Studies course in college, I was taken aback by the poet Adrianne Rich's attempt to (re)define the word "lesbian" to mean "any woman who has ever interacted with another woman in a community". I sputtered and couldn't express myself well on the occasion, which earned me a five-page private letter of vitriol from a lesbian (normal definition) in the class, which she gave me a few days later.

My point in protesting the poet's aim, if I could have made it at the time, is that we can't completely redefine words to bring everyone into our minority community. We can stretch the boundaries, but only so far. Poly people can't get "sex only" swingers to accept polyamory by saying, "Hey, you really are us, you just don't know it, and hey, why are you so threatened?". I think it is more useful to emphasize the ways we are similar without trying to apply labels, or take away someone else's label for themselves. Again, it's all about self-identification. Threaten how someone sees themselves and you're unlikely to change their mind.

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

I do think some folks use "Poly" as a way to justify what they do. I actually learned this on the Poly board when one of the members ranted about how easily and conveniently some Poly people "fall into and out of love."

Heh heh... I'm sure this is true. Lots of people fancy themselves in love pretty easily. When they call themselves poly, it could be a convenient justification, if they need one (why?). But moving is a bitch... all that hauling of furniture... I hope they think twice before moving in together and then away again.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by The Fuse

But moving is a bitch... all that hauling of furniture... I hope they think twice before moving in together and then away again.

I don't think people would move in with each other the "justify" what they are doing. But I can see some people who are hung up with having sex with people they aren't in love with "conveniently" falling in love for an evening, if you know what I mean.

I don't think this describes anyone here. People here are comfortable with swinging and poly to some degree.

And yes - "purple monkey" nailed it

Spoomonkey

[ncmd_couple]

All very thoughtful responses to the thread, thanks. The reason that I brought this up was because of a couple of comments on the poly thread where there were surprised to find themselves in the relationships they were now in. And they didn't necessarily move in with each other. This is something that I thought about, what if we found ourselves "surprised" and in a greatly expanded relationship? I don't know what I would do, roll with the flow I guess.

S

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by ncmd_couple

All very thoughtful responses to the thread, thanks. The reason that I brought this up was because of a couple of comments on the poly thread where there were surprised to find themselves in the relationships they were now in. And they didn't necessarily move in with each other. This is something that I thought about, what if we found ourselves "surprised" and in a greatly expanded relationship? I don't know what I would do, roll with the flow I guess.

S

I think this is an important point. What happens when a couple who hasn't thought of themselves as poly, finds themselves developing those feelings for someone or a couple? As always, our actions go a long way toward defining us. Mr. Fuse and I went with it. I was more receptive than he was, because I am a person who thrives on close relationships. He was more resistant to the idea at first, but then saw that there was no threat and that it was a good thing.

We could have decided to cut it off, and not see them again, if that had been right for us.

And no, you don't have to live together to be poly, in my opinion. Maybe that's a good thread for the poly forum.

Yes, people on the Board seem more accepting of polyamory here than they were in the past, which is nice. Wouldn't want to be alienated from my favorite online community.

[good times]

We are very decidedly not friends first swingers. Heck, I don't even need to know your name, as long as their is mutual attraction and our personalities mesh well enough that we don't piss each other off, I am ready to get on with the sex.

We do know several poly couples though, and have given that kind of lifestyle a quite a bit of thought. What we have decided is that, like Spoo, it isn't for us. While I have no problem with people who like the poly lifestyle, and in fact have several close friends who live it, I personally don't see any benefit to it for myself.

As far as being friends first with play partners goes, we have noticed something over the years we have been active in swinging that we never would have thought of before we started swinging. Like a lot of people, we assumed before we started that we would want to be friends first with our play partners. It turns out that with a very few exceptions, once we have become friends with people in the lifestyle, we usually quit having sex with them. It turns out, that for me anyway, once I get to be good enough friends with someone to be involved in their every day life, their attraction as sex partners diminishes or goes away. I guess for me the big attraction in swinging is the new sex, once I have had sex with someone a few times it isn't new any more. My wife is, so far, the only one I have ever had sex with that I never get tired of going back for more. Everyone else I seem to come to some point that I say to myself, "been there, done that, next".

I have actually noticed that the, "friends first" comment in profiles are, not always, but usually included by new or relatively inexperienced swingers. It is actually pretty rare to see that comment in seasoned swingers profiles. My theory is that most swingers go through a similar progression as we did. They start out thinking that being friends first is the way to go, but as they become experienced they eventually come to the same conclusion that we have, which is, what makes a great sex playmate is not the same qualities that make great friends.

Some of my best swinging play experiences have been with people that I have nothing more in common with than we turn each other on. I wouldn't want to hang out with them otherwise, but we sure have a great time at sex.

[avid]

I think this is a fascinating thread.

We are a MFM poly Vee (which means I have separate MF relationships with two men - my partner and my husband), but we are also swingers. We also have a blended family and have lived together for 6 months.

In our version of "The Lifestyle", we tend to hang around the same bunch of people. We are friendly with them, but other than one couple, I wouldn't call them friends. Interestingly, the one couple we're friends with are not highly compatible sexually. I think the reason we hang around a bunch of people, instead of couples, is because in the group environment, there are fewer issues with matching MF. It kind of surprises me, because I would have thought more women would want a MFM threesome!

I think we're pretty clear that we're not looking to "fall in love" with anyone. Geez, we've got enough on our plates. We do like having recreational sex, though!

[sexcupid]

Originally Posted by avid

It kind of surprises me, because I would have thought more women would want a MFM threesome!

I'm feeling a little rowdy today...so I'll play devil's advocate on this one. lol

While I know that many couples get into the lifestyle so the woman can explore any bi-feelings...the profiles I read like that are basically the girls play and then at some point the hubby wants to join in. So many, many couples are looking for that unicorn. For those couples, I say good luck you may be searching a while (also a favorite peeve of mine are the 'single female' profiles that mention joining her bf/husband at some point...kind of like the single male that poses as a couple...but I digress).

I don't think it's that the women aren't more open to having a MFM...I've been wanting one for years and years, but haven't had one yet. I think part of it is the women catering to her hubby's feelings on the matter and maybe supressing that desire until they get more comfortable in the lifestyle. And yes Jeff is aware of this fantasy (as was my ex-husband and other assorted boyfriends in the past)...we just really haven't pushed the issue since we mostly just play as a couple and it's not particuarly high on my priority list at this time.

So while the general consensus seems to be that the lifestyle is female-centric, I think it's a bit more complicated than just 'what she says goes'...women do tend to be more observant of someone's reactions to their actions. Not saying that men are total emotional idiots, but most don't realize something isn't going well unless they are hit over the head with it (I read this article the other day about men being blindsided by their wives filing for divorce or something...sometimes they don't pick up on small cues).

Ok...I've said enough. I'm going to go get my fire suit now.

Maria