What does it mean to be "open-minded"?

[Spoomonkey]

THIS IS A PURELY PHILOSOPHICAL THREAD. AS IN ALL THINGS PHILOSOPHICAL, THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER - JUST DIFFERING PERSPECTIVES.

This thread has brought up a common question/misperception about the lifestyle. Started as a discussion about alternative sexual choices, the assertion has been made that swingers are not particularly "open minded". This has been made, I think, without anyone really discussing what it means to be "open-minded".

Mr. Menage made the point that we are not - as swingers - more "open-minded" than the rest of the population. I am not so sure about that. And I think we might "disagree" only as a matter of degrees - or one of definitions.

What does it mean to be "open-minded"?

The way this accusation is commonly leveled is that we are not accepting - to the point of being closely involved with - another persons sexual choices; i.e. we don't want it around us.

If that is truly the working definition than it is absolutely accurate as we ALL have things that we may not want to have around. Personally, I am not interested in dedicating a room in our club or house party to "breeder parties" or "coprophragia". I would suspect, though, that applying this definition would mean that there is literally no one who is truly "open-minded".

But I prefer this definition: o·pen-mind·ed adj. Having or showing receptiveness to new and different ideas or the opinions of others.

I think we are all very receptive to different ideas. And generally speaking we are a very tolerant group. For example, and I will use Mr Menage again, Mrs Spoo and I are not "poly". But we respect those who are and do not judge them or question their choices. We think people who can succeed at a polyamorous relationship are amazing. While it is not something that we would want to try - it is certainly something that we respect and accept as a valid lifestyle (and sexual) choice.

By the definition above, we are quite "open-minded" towards those who are poly.

That is an example. So - are we "open-minded" as a "culture" (of swingers) or not?

Spoomonkey

[BradAndJanet]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

...

What does it mean to be "open-minded"? ...

Spoomonkey

To some it means you agree with their opinon.

I don't thing swingers are any more or less 'open minded' than the general population, just like we're not any more or less 'hard-bodied' either.

-B

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by BradAndJanet

I don't thing swingers are any more or less 'open minded' than the general population, just like we're not any more or less 'hard-bodied' either.

How so?

I am putting you on the spot because I know I can - and you are in Seattle, so you can't beat me up...

Ask the general population if swinging is "wrong" and my thought is you would hear, "yes - quite wrong." Not "it isn't for me, but it is cool if you do it." In fact, if we were to reveal that we were swingers, it would be something that would cause the general population to withdraw our dinner invitations

However, we'd invite poly folks, bisexual folks, BDSM folks, etc. over for dinner and not have a problem at all.

I think in swinging you find a lot more "if you enjoy it and aren't hurting anyone, go for it" than you would in the general population.

Spoomonkey

[lovinher]

I think more or less swingers by definition would have to be more open minded than the general population. Think about how you would be judged if you suddenly told everybody your a swinger. That said we all have limits. IMO, a soft swing couple is more open minded than a vanilla couple but a full swap couple might not think so. Just as a couple who plays alone without their partners might think a full swap couple isn't as open minded as they are.
I guess it all depends on where you are at on the open minded ladder.

In the thread you are referring to, the OP made accusations that because you are not into seeing male bi activity that you must be close minded. It is possible to be open minded about bi males even if you would rather not see it. I don't want to see it but I would have no problem playing with a couple with a bi male as long as he understood my parts were off limits. Anybody who has gay friends knows they can be some of the funniest people to be around but I don't want to see them having sex.

To put a twist on this, how about those who look down on or accuse those that have limits of not being open minded. Not everybody has an anything goes philosophy. I believe those that have a problem with soft swap couples or couples who do have limits are somewhat close minded also.

[BradAndJanet]

I'm using the old 'grocery store' analogy. You know, the one where people ask us what swingers look like and we tell them to go to the grocery store and look around. I'm also basing that on the long-gone political conversations (and good-riddance) we had here years ago.

Now, if you're talking open-minded only from a sexual point of view, I might agree that swingers are somewhat more open minded about those subjects than the general population. However, you'll still find plenty of YKINOK (Your Kink Is Not OK) among swingers, I think.

And, I will be back someday, so I can still hunt you down!

-B

[Chicup]

I think the problem isn't the term its the way some people define it, improperly.

For many being 'open minded' really means 'naive' .

Lets take an obvious example like 'power crystals'.

Person 1 - 'This crystal I have on my nightstand will help purge the impure energies in my room.'
Person 2 - 'That crystal isn't doing anything about energies, no study has ever shown a crystal to have any special healing aspects, energies, or otherwise.'
Person 1 - 'You are so close minded!'

Now in sexual issues what open minded seems to mean to many is complete embracing what whatever fetish/orientation/perversion they have.

Example:

Person 1 - 'Come on, don't tell me you never thought about what it would be like giving a bj to another man?'

Person 2 - 'I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but it really doesn't appeal to me in the least.'

Person 1 - 'Oh come on and be open minded, just try it, I bet you like it.'

Person 2 - 'No really, I don't want to.'

Person 1 - 'I thought you swingers were more open minded!'

Now for me, being open minded means I'm willing to consider something new without rejecting it out of hand without proper thought and study. I can accept or reject something based on that process, be it sexual or intellectual. Its the same thought process that led me into swinging despite having absolutely no exposure to anything like it prior.

[good times]

I also maintained for quite some time that swingers are no more open minded than the general population. I still believe that to some extent because I consider myself part of the general population and not so long ago didn't even know what a swinger was. Yet, I can honestly say that I am no more open minded now than I was before I got involved in swinging.

I will say though that my view of the open mindedness of the general population is based on the people I know who live in my area of the world. In the last few years we have traveled around the country from coast to coast. One thing that has struck me during those travels is that we live in an area of the world where people seem to be much more open minded than the average. I now can see that were I to live in some other places in the world, I may be considered more open minded than most.

As it is, my vanilla friends do not consider me very open minded at all. Enough so that many of them often tease me about it. I tend to have very rigid political views, I am very anti-drug on a personal level and haven't ever experimented with any illegal drugs (I don't have any problems with others doing drugs, I am just not willing to go there). So, While compared to my vanilla friends I might be considered more open minded about sex than they are, overall I am not as open minded as them on many other subjects.

[Mr. Truelove]

It's all relative to the perspective of the person that is stating it. It relates to your views on what is "normal." And the farther you deviate from the your personal normal the more closed minded you'll be about it.

For instance. Most of us will readily admit that coprophragia is pretty disgusting. (coprophragia: a sexual pariphilia where a person is aroused by eating poop or having someone else eat their poop.)

However, a person that partakes in such an activity may or may not expect others to be accepting or tolerant of his lifestyle. If he thinks everyone else is crazy for not being open minded enough to try it, then I would call him closed minded. He is expecting other people to think like him and is intolerant that they could be thinking differently. If he expects that other people might be pessimistic, and understands that they might not like to partake in his acts, then I would call him very open minded.

Lets look at that from the other perspective as well. If a person thinks that a person that practices coprophragia is in some way sick and that they should not be doing it, then they are closed minded. When that person think that what a person does in their own bedroom is their own business and if he enjoys it and it doesn't hurt anyone, then he should go ahead and do it, then he is open minded.

It has very little to do with what we want to see, and rather what we are tolerant of allowing others to do. Which in my mind is anything that doesn't harm anyone that isn't consenting about the situation.

There are some of those as well. Lets go ahead and list some of them:

Biastophilia: sexual pleasure from committing rape
Exhibitionism and voyeurism, if lacking mutual agreement.
Frotteurism: sexual arousal through rubbing one's self against an unknowing stranger in public
Lust murder: sexual arousal through committing murder
Necrophilia: sexual attraction to corpses
Necrozoophilia: sexual attraction to the corpses or killings of animals (also known as necrobestiality)
Pedophilia: sexual attraction to peripubescent or pre-pubescent minors
Renfield's syndrome: clinical vampirism, or a compulsion to drink blood as a sexually-arousing act . (non-consenting)
Telephone scatologia: being sexually aroused by making obscene telephone calls (How funny is that)
Zoophilia: emotional or sexual attraction to animals
Zoosadism: the sexual enjoyment of causing pain and suffering to animals.

Wow, that is quite an offensive list of pariphilias. And I feel quite happy about being completely closed minded about those.

But there are others that I am completely open minded about and the list is far too long to list here. But here is the link: List of Pariphilias at Wiki

Now, there are some on that list that although I am completely open minded about in regards that I would be fine with other people doing them, I would not practice them:

Autonephioplia: (a.k.a diaper fetishism) sexual arousal from diapers
Coprophilia: sexual attraction to (or pleasure from) feces
Dendrophilia: sexual attraction to trees and other large plants, popularized by the movie Superstar with Molly Shannon
Emetophilia (a.k.a. vomerophilia): sexual attraction to vomit
Eproctophilia: sexual attraction to flatulence <- HAHA
Incestophilia: sexual attraction to one's own family
Infantilism: sexual pleasure from dressing, acting, or being treated as a baby

The list goes on and on. But basically, as long as no one is being harmed, and everyone is consenting, I am FINE with them doing that. Have fun!

Am I going to do that myself? Not gonna happen? Am I close minded? I sure think not. Could you really call me that if I am perfectly accepting of those that get off on such activities? I don't think it's fair to do so.

Now, with that being said, and I hate to "cross jump hijack" a thread, although I am completely open minded about these acts, I am in no way in favor of watching them in a club. I don't think that makes me close-minded either. Because just as some things are a turn on for them, they are a turn off for me.

And for them to expect what turns them on, not to turn me off, is being very close minded of them.

WHEW! Hope you guys enjoyed that post.

Mr. Truelove

(And btw, Homosexuality was recently removed from that list due to an outcry that it was not an actual psychological condition that could be "treated." I think for the purposes of this argument homosexuality could be added without any issues. That being said, female homosexuality is a turn on for me, but male homosexuality is a no go. If you don't like my views, quit being closed minded! )

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

THIS IS A PURELY PHILOSOPHICAL THREAD. AS IN ALL THINGS PHILOSOPHICAL, THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER - JUST DIFFERING PERSPECTIVES.

This statement is quite ironic in a thread about open or closed mindedness. A close minded person would immediality want to say what is right or wrong. No?

Mr. Truelove

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Mr. Truelove

This statement is quite ironic in a thread about open or closed mindedness. A close minded person would immediality want to say what is right or wrong. No?

Spoomonkey (who is either very dumb or ... )

[VegasLee]

I see a couple answers that I agree with here but that does not make them or me right or wrong.

In many years of going to 1000's of parties and being around 1000's of swingers I don't really think Swingers as a whole are more open minded them Most.

It depends on what the subject is weather they are open minded or not. That is the same with all people, not just any one group. (Swingers, gays, straights, bi, etc.)

We have straight friends that know we are Swingers. They are "live and let live" type people. We have swinger friends that hate gays or bi men.... Live and let live?

I don't think we can say any one "group" is more open minded then any other group. It all comes down to the person, not the group that they relate to.

I have also noticed opinions, or open minded varies greatly depending on what part of the country or world people come from. Again I am not sure it is about being open minded as it is the person.

Good topic Spoo! One that can make a person think.

[mackie44]

Comparing male bisexuality to kinks or fetishes is fallacious, as I have already pointed out on the other thread. Male bisexuality is an orientation, not a fetish. Drawing the line against male bisexuality by citing opposition to kinks or fetishes is an incorrect form of argument and does a disservice to gaining a proper persepective on the issue.

At the end of the day, when a swing club bans male bisexuality, it is practising prejudice. Contrast this with the open arms attitude to female bisexuality, and you have a clear case of hypocrisy.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by mackie44

At the end of the day, when a swing club bans male bisexuality, it is practising prejudice.

Bullshit...

But that is your opinion.

Next?

Spoomonkey

[LOL_OMG]

I would offer the opinion that once experiencing the lifestyle in some way, you tend to look for people of the same swinger mindset as new aquaintances.....

Therefore being more closed minded (or less entrigued) to vanilla relationships.

Mrs.

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by mackie44

Comparing male bisexuality to kinks or fetishes is fallacious, as I have already pointed out on the other thread. Male bisexuality is an orientation, not a fetish. Drawing the line against male bisexuality by citing opposition to kinks or fetishes is an incorrect form of argument and does a disservice to gaining a proper persepective on the issue.

At the end of the day, when a swing club bans male bisexuality, it is practising prejudice. Contrast this with the open arms attitude to female bisexuality, and you have a clear case of hypocrisy.

When it isn't your orientation it doesn't matter what you call it. It's observable like any other fetish. And therefore to people observing that aren't orientated that way, will be treated the same.

The thread wasn't about what is allowed in the club, nor prejudism. It was what open-mindedness means. I was simply trying to state how open-mindedness can be a reference state no different than you would apply to fetishes. Are you trying to say people cannot be orientated towards trees? I bet that person would beg to differ.

Also, the word you are looking for is not prejudice, it's discrimination. Private clubs by definition choose what type of people they wish to allow. What makes homosexuality (sexual attraction to members of the same sex) so special that it should be excluded from the discrimination list over things such as Plushophilia? (sexual attraction to stuffed toys or people in animal costume, such as theme park characters)

You can always start your own private club that has it's own list of discriminations.

(Sorry for the divergence in thread topic)

Mr. Truelove