Ethics v. Swinging

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Pondering the "Secrecy" thread brought me to the ask the question. At what point do we, as swingers, say the damage of being outed outweights the needs to swing? When it affects the lives of 10, 20, 100 others? Where is the line? Or is there one?

If your "Outing" will cause a chain reaction and innocent lives will be impacted, should you swing, should you limit how much or throw caution to the wind? If your actions in NYC have an effect on the portfolio Joe Blow's Granny and Grandad in Copasquat, Iowa, Is that ethical swinging? Hell is there such a thing?

We have read here , on many occasions, that cheating is a No No, because of the dishonesty, the harm to innocent parties (specifically the unaware spouse) Do we apply the same theory here? Think for a minute if Hillary knew and later that evening she and Bill were having hot passionate sex dirty talking about Monica. Does that change things?


I really dont have any complex thoughts as of yet on the subject. I think private lives are that, private. Yet at the same time a certain amount of compassion in me says that if some unassociated party will be a) involved and b) harmed then maybe the situation should be evaluated again.

Maybe I am overthinking (as I tend to do at times.) things.........

[prettylady]

Who can you hurt.
I am new here and still very nieve, but again, who are you going to hurt. Sex is a private matter. Yes an affair can hurt others because of families coming apart. But if you and your wife agree to swing and enjoy the experience then what? my kids don't need to know what goes on in my bedroom. Same goes for my parents sisters and brother. Although just found out my sister is part of the lifestyle so hey, were good.
I love to have sex, I have been called insashible (? can't spell) I remember my life falling apart when I found out my parents were into alternative lifestyle, then a couple of days later I recovered and went on with my life. Good for them I say.
Family is the only ones who you need to concern yourself with and they love you and will deal.
You can not bring what happened with Bill into this and say what if. There was no what if. He cheated on his wife, end of story.

Ya buddy, I think you have over thought this one a little too much.

Your friend,
Prettylady

[blinkey]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

Pondering the "Secrecy" thread brought me to the ask the question. At what point do we, as swingers, say the damage of being outed outweights the needs to swing? When it affects the lives of 10, 20, 100 others? Where is the line? Or is there one?

You mean like, if you were seen in public with me, and I got "outed", you're afraid that through association you'd be outed too? I don't think that anyone with half a brain could conclude that because person "A" is X, then all people with whom person "A" has met is also X. People may wonder, but nobody could possibly know which of my friends are swingers just because I'm one. (Unless they follow me around with a camera, but again THAT is not a repurcussion of my outing, but of something else entirely.)

So perhaps you could suggest some sort of scenario where one person's outing would reveal 100 other people's identities? I ask because it seems like a contrived problem and it confuses me. I'm assuming that the original person is not going around talking, blabbing out people's names, because that's a different situation than being outed too, and could happen independently of it.

How might this chain reaction actually take place?

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

If your "Outing" will cause a chain reaction and innocent lives will be impacted, should you swing, should you limit how much or throw caution to the wind? If your actions in NYC have an effect on the portfolio Joe Blow's Granny and Grandad in Copasquat, Iowa, Is that ethical swinging? Hell is there such a thing?

I think ultimately we're responsible for taking steps to protect our own identity most. If they are swingers, and they get outed for it, it's not like they're exactly innocent. It's just the truth. If you are worried about being outed, or have a lot to lose, then play away from home, in private places, with people you trust to not talk, and don't reveal your true name. If that's not enough, wear a mask and don't take it off. Heh. That can minimize the risk of anyone knowing you. (I'm assuming non-celebrity status, of course. I don't know what to tell a celebrity, but I'm sure they have their own sources of advice.)

If you're going around in public making out with a group of people, then you've outed yourself, and everyone involved is responsible for their own actions and repercussions.

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

We have read here , on many occasions, that cheating is a No No, because of the dishonesty, the harm to innocent parties (specifically the unaware spouse) Do we apply the same theory here? Think for a minute if Hillary knew and later that evening she and Bill were having hot passionate sex dirty talking about Monica. Does that change things?

I do not see the parallel between cheating and accidential disclosure of information of others solely resulting from the disclosure of my identity. In fact, I still don't see how that would even happen in the first place. However, supposing it could happen, and I knew it would happen if I were discovered, then I should at least warn them of the danger.

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

I really dont have any complex thoughts as of yet on the subject. I think private lives are that, private. Yet at the same time a certain amount of compassion in me says that if some unassociated party will be a) involved and b) harmed then maybe the situation should be evaluated again.

I have to assume that we're meeting up with adults who understand the risks and benefits of their decisions and are comfortable operating within those parameters. It is, afterall, an informed decision.

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Originally Posted by blinkey

So perhaps you could suggest some sort of scenario where one person's outing would reveal 100 other people's identities? I ask because it seems like a contrived problem and it confuses me. I'm assuming that the original person is not going around talking, blabbing out people's names, because that's a different situation than being outed too, and could happen independently of it.

Not reveal other swingers identities, maybe I didnt say it correctly. The OP of "Secrecy" implies that if he was "Outed" , Stocks could decline, his company would in turn suffer financially, loss of potential clients, lower receivables lead to layoffs and stockholders would lose a portion of money. Should he be thinking of swinging, or anyone in a similar situation.

Take my wifes company, they just spent a a few bucks purchasing a company that will supply the clientel for a software she is developing. If she were "Outed" and lost her job as a result, not only would we lose, but so would the company, one that has spent some money laying the foundation for the project, and treated her extremely well. 3 other employees would probally be laid off, while the parent company looked for her replacment, the project would be at a standstill and losing money daily. All by her being outed as a swinger. That is my question where do we draw the line and say swinging must wait or just say "Fuck it" and go out, have fun and do the best we can do to be discreet.



Perhaps this is the bottom line.

Originally Posted by blinkey

I think ultimately we're responsible for taking steps to protect our own identity most. If they are swingers, and they get outed for it, it's not like they're exactly innocent. It's just the truth.

PrettyLady,
Just because your new doesnt detract from your opinions and you are certainly not naive. I hope I have answered your questions above. I was just thinking out loud and wondering if Mr. Disturbed should be thinking of swinging in the first place and if the Mrs and I had made the correct decision to lie low and let some life things go by before actively pursuing the process

[Chicup]

This is an interesting question.

Saddly for me an interesting question is one where I really don't have a good anwer.

From my standpoint an outting would have to be rather public and pretty unlikely for there to be a negative effect on the innocent. If my employees knew it would be embarassing but no more than that. If our families knew it would again be embarassing and my mother would most likely try to lecture me, and Mrs. Chicups ultra sexual conservative (on paper, the worst of them in terms of being shocked at swinging was preg at 17) aunts heads would asplode, but really no one would be 'hurt'. So for us no one would really be 'hurt' by our outting.

I'm not sure if it would matter to me if they could be though since I do not view swinging as morally wrong. If I was high profile enough (like say president Chicup) odds are that would be the end of it, and I wouldn't be stupid enough to be cigaring an ugly intern in my office.

[blinkey]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

Not reveal other swingers identities, maybe I didnt say it correctly. The OP of "Secrecy" implies that if he was "Outed" , Stocks could decline, his company would in turn suffer financially, loss of potential clients, lower receivables lead to layoffs and stockholders would lose a portion of money. Should he be thinking of swinging, or anyone in a similar situation.

Ok, thanks for clairifying. The chain reaction was affecting non-swinging people who fall along with the outed person. Gotcha. That does make it a little more interesting. Maybe--if the costs of discovery are too great--the risk/reward tradeoff could leave you only one reasonable choice: don't swing. (Or, go to extraordinary lengths to avoid chance discovery.) There would have to be a lot of trust between all the people involved, and so all should have relatively similar interests in discretion (dictated by similar circumstances of all involved.) That kind of reminds me of Rodney Dangerfield's definition of the ultimate trust: two canibals giving each other oral sex.

[2jersey]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

...If your "Outing" will cause a chain reaction and innocent lives will be impacted, should you swing, should you limit how much or throw caution to the wind?...

Good question!

If being 'outed' is likely to effect your life negatively, it stands to reason that you should take precautionary measures to avoid being outed. To behave otherwise is reckless. Similarly, if your being outed will effect other 'innocent' parties negatively you have an ethical obligation to take precautionary measures. To behave otherwise is both reckless and unethical.

A person who chooses to swing perceives benefits from swinging and this benefit should be weighed against the probability adjusted detriment of being outed. 'Detriment' in this instance should incorporate a consideration of the potential harm suffered by one's self as well as the potential costs to others. Ergo, it is our view that it is wrong to make a decision to swing without giving some regard to the potential impact on others.

When it comes to specifics, individual circumstances vary considerably. Some people are in a position where they should probably not swing under any circumstances - given the extremely high personal or exogenous cost of being outed. For example, If we were parents and felt there was a realistic chance we could lose our children due to our swinging activity, we would stop swinging immediately.

If we felt being outed could jeopardize our financial income, we would take strong precautionary measures to avoid being outed, but we would still swing (because of the offsetting benefits). In this example, our financial income effects both us and our ('innocent') dependents, so ethical considerations are in play.

Unfortunately for Aunt Martha, we're quite willing to risk the possibility that she will be morally outraged or embarrassed because of our swinging. Fortunately, the privacy protections which are currently in place (motivated by other factors) are sufficient to minimize our risk of being outed - so Martha receives 'umbrella protection'.

[Amanda69]

At one point the same question would have been asked of those how were gay...now it is with pride (excuse the pun) that they come out. Just because I choose to do something sexually and with consent it "should" not have any negative effects on my friends, family or business. It is unfortunate that at this time it certainly does.

[Couple_N_Ark]

I don't really think a business owner who is "outed" stands to lose all that much. I think the world has become accepting enough to not worry about such things. I can see where the type of business might make a difference.

Let's say you own a company that prints Bibles, or you're the director of a shelter for abused women, or some similar type situation. I think you get the idea. Then I would suggest that if someone found out you were a swinger, your business might suffer.

On the other hand, if you own Microsoft, or you're the CEO of McDonalds, do you think people will stop using your product or buying your hamburgers because someone accuses you of being a swinger? I'm not even sure it would be much of a news story to tell you the truth.

Personally I'm more concerned about my family finding out than I am anyone else. Just knowing how they would feel about the situation.

Jayson

[Spoomonkey]

Let's say you are a politician - or have such aspirations. You swing - sign up for a swing club, all of your information "protected" by some club owner with a home made computer...

A few years later, you are running for office. Hundreds of thousands - maybe millions of dollars - have been raised and sunk into your campaign by idealistic supporters...

Some reporter in some backwater town gets wind of your past - pays said club owner a cool twenty bucks for a little information - makes the front page of the Bonifay Weekly before getting his chance to interview on Fox News.

Suddenly - right or wrong - your stock is dropping like Wendy's since Dave Thomas died. And the faith, work and cash that people invested into you are now completely wasted...

I have to say that while I think there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with swinging, I don't think this guy can make good on these peoples' investment. He did "cheat" them. Ethically - he made a bad choice.

Great question!

Yes - there is a measured risk in swinging - but when that risk involves others, it is definitely compounded.

Spoomonkey

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

Take my wifes company, they just spent a a few bucks purchasing a company that will supply the clientel for a software she is developing. If she were "Outed" and lost her job as a result, not only would we lose, but so would the company, one that has spent some money laying the foundation for the project, and treated her extremely well. 3 other employees would probally be laid off, while the parent company looked for her replacment, the project would be at a standstill and losing money daily. All by her being outed as a swinger. That is my question where do we draw the line and say swinging must wait or just say "Fuck it" and go out, have fun and do the best we can do to be discreet.

You could draw that line with anything. Should she be driving out late at night? because if she would simply drive during the day she would be safer, and less likely to die. If she died, then that would cause her company to suffer.

So now it's not just her image, but her safety. And what about her diet? Does she smoke? That could be bad. She should really stay out of the sun too, because skin cancer could kill her and THEN where would the company be?

What about life insurance? If she takes any sort of health risk (swinging or otherwise) and has claims, then it raises everyone's healthcare because it affected profits and statistics.

Where do you draw this line? Me? You can't worry about everything. You have work, and you have personal. I keep them separate. People can choose to put work first, but thats not for me.

[good times]

Since this country is probably not going to be ready for a totalitarian dictator in my lifetime, I doubt if I am suitable for public office. :rollseyes

We are not overly concerned about being outed. None of our family lives within 300 miles of us, so I would have to be outed in a major way for them to find out. My business is more national in scope than local, so I think it would be highly unlikely that I would be outed to my customers either. Additionally, while my business is in a fairly conservative industry, the overwhelming majority of my customers are male, I am more likely to get a "You rock, dude!" from them than lose their business if they happened to find out somehow. While we are careful not to confirm it, I would guess that the large majority of our vanilla friends know why we are not available most weekends. We have heard enough rumor and innuendo to figure out that they pretty much know. Really, the only worry we have in regards to being outed is with my wife’s work. If we were outed in a way that their was no possibility of denial, she would probably be fired.

I think that their is a point when it would not be worth it though. If I were a major politician, televangelist, well known celebrity, or in some other high profile occupation, I sure as hell would not be swinging. That being said, I have seen major politicians, televangelists, and well known celebrities at swingers clubs. So, I guess it pretty much boils down to each individual and how much risk they are willing to take.

[ANGEDKY(mr)]

Nice to see ya back Jersey.........

Originally Posted by Mr. Truelove

You could draw that line with anything. Should she be driving out late at night? because if she would simply drive during the day she would be safer, and less likely to die. If she died, then that would cause her company to suffer.

So now it's not just her image, but her safety. And what about her diet? Does she smoke? That could be bad. She should really stay out of the sun too, because skin cancer could kill her and THEN where would the company be?

What about life insurance? If she takes any sort of health risk (swinging or otherwise) and has claims, then it raises everyone's healthcare because it affected profits and statistics.

Where do you draw this line? Me? You can't worry about everything. You have work, and you have personal. I keep them separate. People can choose to put work first, but thats not for me

While I appreciate your examples, you cannot use them as a comparison. Driving and overeating are things that by nature are widely accepted by society in general. To make an accurate comparison you need something that is frowned upon and a conscious decision to participate (or not).

Take that idiot from Coors Brewing (the CEO, Peter Coors) that got a DUII in May. He CHOOSE to drive after drinking and then ran a friggin stop sign, not something the general population accepts, Stock dropped in the neighborhood of $1.10ish when the news hit that he had his license revoked in July by the judge. Now say you had 1000 shares, you just lost 1100 bucks! Do you still value his buisness decisions with your money? All because his CONSCIOUS decision to participate in something that society dislikes and get caught. I know your saying now, but thats an illegal act. Ok so substitute DUII with a blowjob from his wifes friend, simple enough and most of have had an occasion to be driving and our SO gets all frisky and starts going down. Best case scenario the outcome is still the same, but I would venture a guess much much worse.

In typing all of this I guess I just answered my own question, yes we did make the right decision and yes as lifestyle folks I think we have a responsibility (albeit somewhat limited in nature)to look beyond our immediate circle when assessing the fallout potential.

Nice discussion, enjoyed it!


Angedky(mr)

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by ANGEDKY(mr)

While I appreciate your examples, you cannot use them as a comparison. Driving and overeating are things that by nature are widely accepted by society in general. To make an accurate comparison you need something that is frowned upon and a conscious decision to participate (or not).
Angedky(mr)

I disagree and still stand behind my responce.

My point is how would you change your life to better others around you or your place of employment/work. How far would you go? Would you infringe your personal happyness? What about convenience?

To some, this lifestyle is something they truly enjoy. To say that enjoying that lifestyle is putting people at financial risk is a foolish worry in my mind. Why should I give up my personal happyness so someone else can make a buck? Would you in turn ask that guy to give up other possible leisure activities that would put the company at risk? Perhaps skydiving?

Being accepted by society isn't the central issue I was dealing with. It's how much are you ethically expected to change your lifestyle (whatever it may be) to protect someone elses.

[Mike and Jan]

Why be 'labeled' if you don't have too be?

There are some things that society just can't understand, or handle for that matter.

I've never believed in a devine being and never could. But as a kid and most of my adult life I kept my beliefs to myself. I even went to church as a social thing at times.

Only my closest friends and my wife knew.

But I finally just had this need to let more people know and allow me to be more honest with everyone.

Well, now I'm labeled an 'atheist' at work and if it weren't a government job, where I'm protected, I'd certainly be fired for it. I accomplished nothing because the people just can't understand and won't try.

I think it's the same about 'swinging'. They won't be able to understand so why tell them?

Plus, like some exciting, and private, sex act a couple enjoys..., isn't it fun to have a sexual secret with your spouse?