Swinging friends came out to us this weekend

[nillagrrrl]

My girlfriend and I (not swingers) have a couple who are dear friends of ours. (They are a hetero couple; we are lesbians.) Over the years, we have skied with them, dined with them, opened up to them, they to us.... We love these people.

Over the last six or eight months, they have been distant, and we started to think they were mad at us. (We used to get together at least once per month, and we've seen them twice in the last eight months.) Well, last weekend, the male had a milestone birthday party. At this party were a bunch of new faces (we've known the couple's other friends for years as well, and none of these people was familiar to us). We ended up talking to one het. couple who seemed cool, but the female bungled the answer to our innocent question, "So, how do you meet [our friends]?"

Long story short, our friends ended up coming out to us at the crowded, loud bar where we were celebrating. I was quite surprised, because the female of the couple seems especially WASP-ish. But ya know, good for them. Hell, I'm gay. What the hell am I gonna do? Judge their sexuality?

We were a little surprised, but we really don't care if that's their scene. Good for them. It sorta makes one think about what one's friends are doing in the bedroom, but I got over that pretty quickly. (Not only am I completely satiated with my, as you say, "vanilla" lifestyle, but I don't particularly find either of them attractive. Moreover, the male has always seemed like a brother to me.)

What is bothering me about this whole thing, though, is two-fold. First, I hate that anything about this bothers me, and I've been analyzing the fact that it does ad nauseam since (blame it on nearly a decade of therapy and 12-step work). I don't want to be a hypocrite, and I can't stand it when gay people come out to their friends/family and the response is, "Oh, I don't care that you're gay; I just care that you lied to me." Bull$hit! That's utter crap.

That being said, there is a part of me that feels this way. Here is why I think, though, that it bothers me that they didn't come out to us. First, the male has always told me and my partner about deeply personal things (how he made a big mistake in his marriage long ago, etc., etc.). So how does he keep this a secret for 18 months? We're lesbians for god's sake. We don't have a problem with alternative sexual lifestyles. This male and I have always prided ourselves on being out and proud about who we are, and we were intolerant of hypocrites. In fact, he just shared a story with me about a friend of his who might be gay but is suppressing it. He said he didn't understand that.

The other thing that really hurt my feelings is that we have felt like they were blowing us off for months. Now we know why. They just wanted to get laid instead of nurturing a friendship. They blew us off so they could get off! It seems so friggin' high-school-boy like. "I know I could have a meaningful relationship with you two, but I gotta go screw instead."

By their own admission, nothing has changed between us that would have altered the friendship. Apparently, they just had something more interesting to do. For 6 or 8 months. It feels like they picked fu**ing over friendship, and that really hurts. Especially because I truly thought they were good people. (And maybe they are, but this situation has made me think otherwise.)

I welcome your comments. I have no interest in the "lifestyle," as the incredibly erotic sex I have with my very sexy girlfriend is all that I need.

[Pinmonkey]

I may be completely off here, but I'll give my opinion of why they kept it a secret. While they did share personal information with you about past marrages and relationships, it does sound like (or you didn't specifically mention) that they shaired their bedroom life with you. It read to me as if while you 4 are great friends, they viewed you not as lesbians first, and then couple, but as a couple first. And as such they didn't think that you would be accepting of them swinging or feel that you wanted to hear about it, or that is was simply part of their "extreamly personal" information and you didn't either need to know or didn't they you wanted to know.

But like I mentioned. I could be way off, but this is my impression from reading your post.

[warkman]

Did you ask them when they started swinging? If so, does their distance from you coincide with that? If it doesn't, then your assumption that "they picked fu**ing over friendship" may be incorrect. If the two coincide, it might be understandable that their new hobby has temporarily changed their focus.
If you're that concerned, why not call them up and talk to them?

[VegasLee]

"Oh, I don't care that you're gay; I just care that you lied to me." Bull$hit! That's utter crap.

With real friends that is not "bullshit". Many get offended because of lying and not the lifestyle. You seem to have just proven it is not bullshit. Your pissed about them not "coming out" to you.

Just because your lesbians does not make you any more open minded, just makes you different minded. Most swingers are not any more open minded then anyone else, just different.

They found something new and wanted to explore it. It took their time for them to do so, like kids in a candy store. That is very common in life so why get pissed off over it?

I am sure there has been some time in your life that you got involved in something that took a lot of your time and you cut back time with others, everyone does it no matter what their lifestyle is.

If you feel for your friends like you state you do, get over it, move on and have a great friendship with them. Allow them their time to be what they want to be as they have you.

Keep life simple and have fun. Nothing here to be pissed about. Being pissed does no one any good.

[two4youinswva]

Welcome to the board!

Here's a thought or two about your situation.

That being said, there is a part of me that feels this way. Here is why I think, though, that it bothers me that they didn't come out to us. First, the male has always told me and my partner about deeply personal things (how he made a big mistake in his marriage long ago, etc., etc.). So how does he keep this a secret for 18 months?

Most couples NEVER come out to their vanilla friends. It's just the way it is. If you were to spend some time reading the posts in the forums here, you'll see a recurring theme of keeping swinging separate from friends. Not everyone feels this way, but a large percentage do.

Apparently, they just had something more interesting to do. For 6 or 8 months. It feels like they picked fu**ing over friendship, and that really hurts. Especially because I truly thought they were good people. (And maybe they are, but this situation has made me think otherwise.)

My wife has a friend that she has known for 35 years. Over that time they were very close, drifted apart for a while, were close again, drifted again... you get the picture. Bottom line is they always know the other is only a phone call away. That's what often happens with friends, whether swinging is involved or not. People drift apart and then back together.
FWIW, her friend of 35 years does not know we swing.

I have no interest in the "lifestyle," as the incredibly erotic sex I have with my very sexy girlfriend is all that I need.

Good for you! A great sex life is a good thing.
Swinging isn't for everyone. Actually it isn't for almost everyone. But, for those of us that it works for, well, let's just say "it works".

Good luck, and don't be too pissed at them!

[TNT]

First to the Board.

I think it's great that you came here to try and find out why you're feeling the way you are about your friends, kudos to you!

I'm not sure that any of us will be able to give you an exact reason as to why you're feeling the way you are but...we'll sure try

From what I'm reading it seems that you are hurt that your close friends didn't share this part of their life with you...one thing you need to remember is that now that you have found out, your friends haven't changed, just your perception of them has.

And that's probably the reason why they didn't tell you in the beginning. They were afraid you would judge them.

When becoming involved in anything new, it's always exciting and time consuming. Your friends found something that they obviously both enjoy and they wanted to spend time doing it...yes, they probably could have balanced their time better between their new life/friends and their old ones but, when first becoming involved in swinging it can and does at times occupy a great deal of your time, mainly because of the excitement of it.

I think you're hurt because someone close to you didn't reveal every thing about themselves and you may feel a bit left out.

The good thing is that now that you know I bet you'll be seeing a lot more of your friends, as now they will feel they won't have to hide things from you and they'll be able to share this new part of their life with you.


Teresa

[Pensacolapair]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

......Nothing here to be pissed about.

Read the OP closely a couple of times.... and couldn't agree more!

As has been mentioned, your friends relate to you as a couple first... your being lesbians is just a part of the mix. There are many, many couples in the Lifestyle who are best of friends with 'vanilla' couples - grew up together, went to school together, in the service together, etc with whom they share family events, holidays, problems and the like. But the fact that they are in the Lifestyle remains unknow to said 'vanilla' friends! It's just one of the dynamics of the Lifestyle for many.

The fact that your friends did 'come out' to you is a testimony to the level that they feel your friendship is on. They obviously trust and respect you enough to share this extremely personal knowledge with you.

As was said, people often do get tunnel-vision when they get into a new pursuit... it doesn't mean their feelings about other relationships or pursuits has changed.

[JustAskJulie]

I can definately see where your feelings would be hurt here... and to me it's much more about the fact that they were apparantly blowing you for for the last 8 months or so. I would sit down and talk with them about your feelings, be honest. Ask them WHY they felt they couldn't be open with you and why they felt they had to put you on the backburner while they made all these new friends rather than allowing you to continue to be involved in their lives? Were they scared that if they came out to you that YOU would want to participate with them? Are they secretely attracted to you but know thatyou wouldn't be open to anything more and therefore felt that it was better to push you off?

Get all of these questions and answers out of the way and I just bet that you'll have your friends back to the way things used to be.

[nillagrrrl]

I appreciate all the feedback and info. Another thing that I am realizing that I am feeling is jealousy--not sexual jealousy, but friendship jealousy. They are apparently the type who stay friends with their FBs (what do you call friends you have swung with?), and they have all this affection for them, which I am happy for them in that respect, truly I am. But those friends share an intimacy with them that my partner and I never will (i.e., the sex), and I feel that the friendship will slip away slowly, as they hang out with the sex partners more.

As for them being scared to come out to us, the male (especially) knows me. He and I always joke that we're the same person--we finish each other's sentences, etc. He KNOWS (and I KNOW he KNOWS) that I couldn't give a rat's patootie if he and his wife were swinging--with others or from the chandelier. As long as innocent people (or animals) weren't being hurt, he knows I could not care less.

It's kinda like being in a foreign land, when you find out these people you know (or thought you knew) have this whole secret life and all of these other "friends" and have been spending their time and money in these ways. I could see if we were sexually-repressed, Christian right-wingers, but we're liberal, open-minded, atheist lesbians. We've kept his confidences about sexual things he has shared related to his marriage.

To those who never come out to your vanilla friends: Give us a chance. If you lose friends over something you do in the bedroom, then I say they're not real friends. Don't risk losing them because they feel like they don't even know you because you managed to compartmentalize your life so very well.

I feel hurt that they didn't tell us, and when I went to that party, I felt like a complete jackass because we were suddenly not part of the group of friends and close to the b-day boy, but more like party-crashers who were now outsiders.

[nillagrrrl]

And I do appreciate the perspective of others, so please keep the posts coming!

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by nillagrrrl

I feel hurt that they didn't tell us, and when I went to that party, I felt like a complete jackass because we were suddenly not part of the group of friends and close to the b-day boy, but more like party-crashers who were now outsiders.

Now that I can understand. It does suck to feel like an outsider when you aren't expecting it.

People do things we don't like sometimes, and sometimes it hurts. If you don't think their intention was to hurt you, then try to forgive and move past it.

FWIW, when we started swinging a few years back, one of the first people we told was a very close friend of ours that happened to be a lesbian. She accepted this and was not really surprised at all, knowing us the way she does.

[nillagrrrl]

BTW, love the Sarah M. song lyric above your Calvin & Hobbes avatar.

[nillagrrrl]

I know I'm posting a lot (just trying to earn custom avatar priveleges, hee hee), but I just wanted to thank everyone for letting me process this here so that I can learn, vent, and understand our friends' position better and hopefully be able to remain friends with them.

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by nillagrrrl

BTW, love the Sarah M. song lyric above your Calvin & Hobbes avatar.

It's one of "Our Songs".

Attended Lilith Fair back in '97.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by nillagrrrl

Another thing that I am realizing that I am feeling is jealousy--not sexual jealousy, but friendship jealousy. They are apparently the type who stay friends with their FBs (what do you call friends you have swung with?), and they have all this affection for them, which I am happy for them in that respect, truly I am. But those friends share an intimacy with them that my partner and I never will (i.e., the sex), and I feel that the friendship will slip away slowly, as they hang out with the sex partners more.

I can definately understand this and I think it's a pretty normal thing. Even if there wasn't the swinger issue...just the fact that your friends suddenly have this new set of friends with different interests than you and you feel like an outsider.

As for them being scared to come out to us, the male (especially) knows me. He and I always joke that we're the same person--we finish each other's sentences, etc. He KNOWS (and I KNOW he KNOWS) that I couldn't give a rat's patootie if he and his wife were swinging--with others or from the chandelier. As long as innocent people (or animals) weren't being hurt, he knows I could not care less.

One thing to understand and I think you will more as you read more of the threads here is that it's hard for US (the swingers) as we work our way into this new lifestyle to know who to trust with this new bit of information about ourselves, we don't know who might judge us or who won't. And even if HE knows YOU can be trusted (he might not have been as sure about your partner, or perhaps his wife wasn't as sure. The only way you really be able to come to terms with these questions is to ask THEM and find out why they didn't tell you and let them know that their not telling you really HURT you.

I know that not seeing them hurt quite a bit as well, and I just had a thought that maybe it wasn't so much that they were avoiding you but just that as they were exploring this new hobby (that you didn't share) that much like when a friend gets a new boyfriend or girlfriend you see them less for a while. It's like having a new toy, you get so wrapped up in it that sometimes you let other things slide.

To those who never come out to your vanilla friends: Give us a chance. If you lose friends over something you do in the bedroom, then I say they're not real friends. Don't risk losing them because they feel like they don't even know you because you managed to compartmentalize your life so very well.

Excellent point. My best friend does NOT know that we swing, and I doubt I will tell her. Honestly, I think she probably would be ok with it but I just don't feel the need to let her in on this particular part of our lives. Much like the minute details of our sex life in general, it's just not something I go around talking to her about. I have a few other friends (on the other hand) that I don't consider to be as good of friends but they do know, because it has just come up for other reasons.

Some food for thought as you work way through this.... you may also want to take a look at a few threads from the other side of the coin, you'll find several threads dealing with various issues of friendship in this archive:
Friendship & Swinging - The Swingers Board