Friends and Swinging

Alright everyone! I know that there are threads on here that talk about being outed and how to handle the situations that arise but I cannot seem to find the threads that will help in dealing with thoughts of being outed..

MrVan and I were talking today briefly by IM about some of our friends who have recently either outed us about being swingers or have heard that some of our friends "think" we are swingers but have never said anything to us. It seems that as our friends have found out, it appears that they have distanced themselves from us or get upset when we do not have time to spend with them and not because of the LS but because our lives are busy with our children. How do you overcome and handle situations with friends (vanilla) who have found out that we are swingers and have distanced themselves?

Maybe we are at fault for making it seem obvious but MrVan and I have changed in personality and when we go out (even to a vanilla club) we like to have fun. We will dance with people and just have a good time. We had went out about a month or so ago and because MrVan and I were checking out a wife of one of the couples with this group, the friend/co-worker of MrVan's noticed we were checking out this woman and said "are you guys swingers?" WTF..Can a woman not check out another woman and compliment that she is hot? I know, I know..Normal vanilla woman do not talk to their husbands about a woman who is attractive and both find good looking, but come on..

So what do you do if you feel your loosing your vanilla friends? Do you just let them go and move on in life? I hate that our friends look down on us so to speak but it just feels like maybe they are not approving our decisions that we have made in our relationships..Some suggestions or thoughts would be great..

MrsVan

[LFM2]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

How do you overcome and handle situations with friends (vanilla) who have found out that we are swingers and have distanced themselves?

We've never personally felt this, but we'd be hurt. We're still the same people they knew before we were outed, so why would they shun us? Probably because their mores and values differ from ours. That's fine with us.

Originally Posted by MrsVan

MrVan and I were checking out a wife of one of the couples with this group, the friend/co-worker of MrVan's noticed we were checking out this woman and said "are you guys swingers?"

Was he asking out of curiosity, or was he asking in a disgusted kind of tone? Personally, Mr. LFM and I went out about a month ago with a couple vanilla couples, as well. Mr. LFM was dancing with this young cute thing and I was actually admiring his moves with her. Both of the other wives was asked me why I wasn't jumping up to rip her eyes out. I wasn't sure what to answer without outing our lifestyle.

Originally Posted by MrsVan

So what do you do if you feel your loosing your vanilla friends? Do you just let them go and move on in life? I hate that our friends look down on us so to speak but it just feels like maybe they are not approving our decisions that we have made in our relationships..Some suggestions or thoughts would be great..

MrsVan

I'd hate to think this would ever happen, but I think I would just move on. We're not going to live or change our life for them. Our marriage is OUR marriage. That's between us and us only. If our friends felt that they were the marriage police and they were the superior ones that we were to follow their example, it would be time for us to move on. Man, did I go off topic? I was kind of ranting about our vanilla friends whom we went out with.

[VegasLee]

These are my views that have worked in my life, many can not live as I do or desire to live as I do but they work for us. Your mileage may vary.

First off, we don't believe true friends will look down on us or leave us or question the decisions we make that pertain our life as long as they are not decisions that hurt others.

Over the years we have met and know a great number of people, we have very few true friends in our life. Friends that are willing to stand by us and stand up for us if needed. True friends understand when we don't have time for them, be it time needed for our family or our lifestyle. They do not get their feelings hurt because we have other things that do come first.

We do not feel at "fault" for being who we are. We are happy with who we are, our lifestyle and our life in general.

To us this is where it breaks down to being a hobby or a Lifestyle.

If your golf playing was getting in the way of your friendships are you willing to give up those that you consider friends to play golf? Will those friends understand?

If it is your lifestyle, not just a sometime hobby, do you adapt and end up with your circle of true friends being people that are like minded of your lifestyle?

We do have some non-Lifestyle friends. They are true friends that accept us for who and what we are. Others that have found out over the years and did not accept it and left we looked back at, no down at, and accepted that they were not true friends.

At first glance it can make for hard decisions. You are on the fence about your position in life at the moment. You are not sure who is a true friend or not. You feel some are looking "down" on you. Are those you feel are looking down true friends or just people you have been around for a long time?

Any Lifestyle that is different is not easy at times. It all depends on your own views and how you feel in your own skin. If you are happy, go on with life and enjoy it and let the chips fall where they may. It works out in the long run as long as it is what works for you.

Originally Posted by LFM2

Was he asking out of curiosity, or was he asking in a disgusted kind of tone? Personally, Mr. LFM and I went out about a month ago with a couple vanilla couples, as well. Mr. LFM was dancing with this young cute thing and I was actually admiring his moves with her. Both of the other wives was asked me why I wasn't jumping up to rip her eyes out. I wasn't sure what to answer without outing our lifestyle.

It was actually a she that made the comment and she did not really come off as disgusted but just asked in a joking manner..But when she made the comment I wondered to myself "do vanilla couples not check out others and make comments abou them?" Maybe that is what has helped MrVan and I in the LS as even before we got into the LS we both made comments about others that would walk by that we found attractive..Looking back now, maybe that was a sign for us.

I'd hate to think this would ever happen, but I think I would just move on. We're not going to live or change our life for them. Our marriage is OUR marriage. That's between us and us only. If our friends felt that they were the marriage police and they were the superior ones that we were to follow their example, it would be time for us to move on. Man, did I go off topic? I was kind of ranting about our vanilla friends whom we went out with.

I know that in the long run MrVan and I feel the same that it is OUR marriage but I guess it is more disappointing to find out that friends would not want to accept us for who we are..We have not changed other than I have become more outgoing and less shy since we got into the LS.

MrsVan

[TNT]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

So what do you do if you feel your loosing your vanilla friends? Do you just let them go and move on in life?

MrsVan

As usual, Lee pretty much said it all. I did want to give a few of my thoughts

Ted and I have had the conversation of "What would we do if people found out". Here's what we decided and how we feel.

Basically there are four people in our lives that it would devastate us if they turned their backs on us...our four children. Yes, we love our parents and our siblings and a few of our vanilla friends but...we can live without their approval and/or them turning their backs on us and never speaking to us again...to have our children not want to have anything to do with us would come close to killing both Ted and I.

With that being said, we also realized that our children would (and three have) grow up and would be making lives of their own and we had to do what was right for us. All we could do was try to let them know that whatever decision we made for our life it played no part on how much we loved them and once they were adults if they chose to disconnect themselves from us, it would be their decision.

We obviously did something right. Our two oldest know what we do. Our third we're 98% sure she does and our fourth we're 95% sure he does. All of them could care less. So for us, if vanilla friends/family didn't want to have anything to do with us, it would sting a bit but the sting wouldn't last long because the four that really matter to us, don't care.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's your life. You have to live it the way you feel is right for you. If your friends aren't happy that you're happy, let them go and move on with your life.


Teresa

Originally Posted by VegasLee

If your golf playing was getting in the way of your friendships are you willing to give up those that you consider friends to play golf? Will those friends understand?

In response to this question, NO I would not give up golf for my friendship if it was something that would make them "feel better" cause I gave up something that I enjoyed. If they did not understand then I am sorry but this is my life.

If it is your lifestyle, not just a sometime hobby, do you adapt and end up with your circle of true friends being people that are like minded of your lifestyle?

We do have some non-Lifestyle friends. They are true friends that accept us for who and what we are. Others that have found out over the years and did not accept it and left we looked back at, no down at, and accepted that they were not true friends.

I would hope that our friends would accept us for who we are regardless of the decisions we have made in our lives. And would hate to see that they would stop being friends or become distant because they disapprove of us. But at the same time I want people in my life who are supportive of my decisions no matter whether or not they approve, instead of those that look down at me.

At first glance it can make for hard decisions. You are on the fence about your position in life at the moment. You are not sure who is a true friend or not. You feel some are looking "down" on you. Are those you feel are looking down true friends or just people you have been around for a long time?

The friends who we are talking about have been long time friends of MrVan's since before we got together. I have become good friends with them through MrVan's friendship and as his one friend got married, I became good friends with the wife. I would think that they all would be considered true friends and just hope that maybe I am reading into their actions more that what is going on, but it just feels like the may disagree with us and are not wanting to be around.

Any Lifestyle that is different is not easy at times. It all depends on your own views and how you feel in your own skin. If you are happy, go on with life and enjoy it and let the chips fall where they may. It works out in the long run as long as it is what works for you.

I feel good in my skin when it comes to the LS and am not ashamed of being a swinger. The LS works for MrVan and I in many ways and has brought us closer than we were before we got into the LS. We have an amazing marriage and it was this way before the LS and the LS just added to our amazing marriage. I just hope that our friends although they disapprove with our decision, will not be afraid to be around us.

MrsVan

Originally Posted by TNT

Basically there are four people in our lives that it would devastate us if they turned their backs on us...our four children. Yes, we love our parents and our siblings and a few of our vanilla friends but...we can live without their approval and/or them turning their backs on us and never speaking to us again...to have our children not want to have anything to do with us would come close to killing both Ted and I. Teresa

Teresa,

You and Ted sound a lot like MrVan and I..The four people in our lives that would kill us if they decided to not come around would be our children..I do not think we could live our lives knowing that our children disapproved so much to want to have nothing to do with us.

I would hate for my family to find out but like you said, it would not kill me if they decided to not want anything to do with me again. It is hard for me to accept the friends being upset as I do not have many friends so having his friends around every now and then is nice for me, so to not have friends around would be tough but I think I would get use to it.

Thanks for the advise..And as you stated Theresa, Vegas Lee said it all very well and gave some great advise.

MrsVan

[Mr. Sweet]

Good question....One that has had some discussion in our house especially since on of my closest coworkers and my best friend almost found us out a few months ago. In fact, I kinda think she still suspects something, but has let it drop.

....Halloween Party....nuff said.....

But with that, I can't say I'm altogether too concerned with losing my "vanilla" friends if they find out. My closest friends I know well enough to realize that they aren't going to be too shocked and offended by it. Maybe it's just because Mrs. Sweet and I, and most of our friends to date, tend to be of the standpoint that as long as you're not hurting anyone and everyone's OK...go for it. Are there some friends we might lose if we're outed...yes....but if they're willing to drop us just for finding out and not us trying get them to join our AMWAY pyramid.....so be it, it might have well been been our political views that turned them away.

Mr. Sweet

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

In response to this question, NO I would not give up golf for my friendship if it was something that would make them "feel better" cause I gave up something that I enjoyed. If they did not understand then I am sorry but this is my life.

MrsVan,

You said it ALL right there. You are going to do just fine either way.

[sweet_tna]

MrsVan,

Quite simply, if these folks are avoiding you because they found out about you being in the lifestyle, they're not really your friends. And it stings, but you'll be better off without them in your life. Our kids are the only people that would really devastate us for turning away from us. But they're young, and I hope we're able to teach them acceptance of others before they do find out.

Friends understand when you're busy, for WHATEVER reason you're busy and are there for you when you need them.

As you said yourself, this is YOUR marriage and YOUR life. You have to live it.

Hugs,

=)

[mrs good times]

When I outed us to our best friends it cost us what we thought was a life long friendship. It hurt terribly at the time, but it didn't take us long to realize that a true friend accepts you as you are, no exceptions. True friendship is kind of like unconditional love to me. We all have faults and things about each other we may disapprove of but if you truly care about someone you work through the problem not avoid it.

Because of this "outing" other vanilla friends found out, but those that were told stuck by us and accepted us for who they already knew and cared about. While we don't discuss it with them they don't judge us for our decision either.

Because of mutual relationships we still run into this couple on occasion and we are cordial to each other, but that is it. I am not willing to mend fences with them because I don't feel that they ever were true friends to begin with.

Does it hurt, Yes. Is it worth being someone you are not, No.

[intuition897]

This is a great and very thought-provoking thread.

Mr. intuition and I have been "on hold" for a long (loooooong) time now. But although we aren't particularly relishing our unwilling return to monogamy, it's given us the chance to really appreciate why we enjoyed the lifestyle in the first place and understand that we would readily choose it again, circumstances permitting. We're seeing how stifling monogamy really can be for those for whom it isn't a good fit. That's getting dangerously close to that thin red line between choosing to swing and "needing" to swing, but I still say we don't need it. It just makes us happier - truly happier - to really live in the Lifestyle. It enhances, highlights, and beautifully frames what we already have.

I recently went through a similar loss of friendship with a vanilla girlfriend of mine. It's on my 360 blog if you want to read about it (see my signature line below for the link, and it's titled "The Worst Thing About Swinging"). She was unable to absorb that what we were doing was normal, healthy and a sign of a good relationship. It was a good experience, because I've never had to dump a friend because he or she couldn't respect me, and it made it very clear to me what a treasure real friends are.

The story has a happy ending, though, because after quite a long time (about a year I think?) she emailed me out of the blue and apologized. She was going through a "cleansing and purging" period in her life, ridding herself of anything she thought was dead weight. She had been angry with me for not making the time to see her as often as she would've liked, and she went off on a rant. I figured I had best cut my losses if this was the way she was going to insist on behaving. Plus I couldn't respect someone who pitied me.

It seems now, though, that she's had time to reflect on the value of real friendship, too. She's quite open-minded, and although it's not for her, if it's making me happy, she trusts that I'm a big girl and can handle my own destiny and my soul's final destination.

Losing friends sucks, but Lee's advice is good whether you're out or not. While you may regret some of the trouble it gets you into with respect to the world around you, I can't imagine you would regret being respectful of or true to yourselves.

[Chris&Amelia]

One of our vanilla friends know about our past time, and while they've pretty much told us that it's not for them, they keep picking our brain about it whenever we're over at their place. Both Amelia and I have come to the conclusion that she's more interested in it then he is, but we're happy to answer any questions to the best of our ability and let them choose their own path.

But, as several others have already beaten me to the punch, if they find out and they dump you, well... were they true friends to begin with? I'm paraphrasing here, but isn't there an old saying that something along the lines of "A good friend will keep quiet if they see you kill somebody, while a true friend will help you rent the wood chipper."

And if they find out and then dump you... their loss.

Our big worry is about our parents (well, mothers actually) and to a lesser extent our jobs. There are very real, very significant consequences there. But, I must admit, when we went to the local meet & greet and saw my boss's secretary getting busy by the bar, it kind of put things in perspective....

[des1re06]

We had this same conversation recently. We were with our vanilla friends who hang out together every weekend (boating). Hubby asked if I missed it and would I want to give up what we do now and go back. I said absolutely no. I do miss the friendships, but I do feel the distancing since they are aware of our lifestyle. I know they're having a blast talking about us, and I don't really care.

I enjoy the freedom to be myself too much to go back.

Mrs. D

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by MrsVan

Do you just let them go and move on in life? I hate that our friends look down on us so to speak but it just feels like maybe they are not approving our decisions that we have made in our relationships.

Hi MrsVan,

I think that a huge part of why people distance themselves isn't only about you and how they perceive swinging affects you, but mostly about how it reflects on THEM. People are pretty self-centered creatures, and the bottom line is usually "how does this make me look?"

For example, if the wife suspects or realizes that her husband's longtime friend and friend's wife are swingers, she's naturally going to wonder if her own husband is thinking, "Why can't my wife be like that?" She feels she'll be compared to you. If the thought of swinging terrifies her or if she can't see herself doing that, and would hate it if her husband wanted/asked for it, she's going to want to pull away. She will feel that just being around you two will be an influence (even if you never bring it up to them). You no longer have monogamy in common.

The "How does this make me look?" way of thinking can be attributed to many things; just about any change that a person could make. For example, let's say that friends bond around food; every time they get together, they eat a lot, drink, etc. Then, one of them gets on a health and fitness kick. This one loses weight, drops a few sizes, starts dressing differently, has some different activities now. The healthy one wants to continue their friendship and get together, but won't order the greasy ribs and 4 margaritas anymore...she's eating a salad. She's changed. The friend who hasn't changed will avoid seeing that person now, because of how it makes her look to be seen with the fitness buff friend. It makes her uncomfortable. She feels left behind; they no longer have things in common that they used to have.

When friends don't have monogamy in common, that's a pretty big thing.

You are probably different in some ways than you used to be before swinging. (You mentioned that you and Mr. Van have changed in personality.) People who are still in the same place almost always feel threatened in some way when their friends change and go in a different direction...that's why they distance themselves.

Do you just let them go and move on in life? Yeah, you have to. They might come to accept your changes, but if they don't, there's nothing you can do about it, unless you want to change back to what you were before (or hide who you are), just to make other people happy.

Hugs!