Getting close to friends

[blueguitar]

Hi there. I am new to this site, but I have read a lot of the posts in the new swingers forum. I didn't really see anything addressing the situation I am in, and I was hoping for some advice from more experienced swingers. Sorry if this post is a little wordy. I have been engaged to my wonderful fiance for about 1 1/2 years. We have been together for almost 5 years, and living together for about 3 years. Both of us are quite open minded regarding sexuality and relationships (and we have a very stable, communicative, sharing relationship), but until recently neither of us have really explored the idea of swinging..

The two of us are finding ourselves in an interesting situation. About six months ago, we had a pretty bad threesome experience (very drunk) which was unplanned and not something that would have happened sober. It was the first time anything involving a person outside our relationship had happened, and we had sort of dismissed the idea, probably due to social taboo. It was something we sort of had a hard time dealing with because we could no longer say "you are the only one i've had sex with since we started dating". Even though we were both a part of it, and shared the experience, it was unplanned and with the wrong person. Since we had no frame of reference to deal with this, we went to our best friends (a couple we have known since early high school) and revealed what had happened, to get advice from them. Because of this, we found out that they had been through a similar situation, and we talked a lot about all of it. The end result was that we all felt more comfortable with each other, and with ourselves regarding our sexuality and everything that we had been through. Since the threesome and subsequent talking with our best friends, we feel fine about what happened, and view it as a learning experience.

Since then, my fiance and I have started talking about threesomes and what place they have in our life. The idea of a threesome doesn't appeal to us exactly, so we kept talking about it, and researching. Over the months, we have gotten much closer to our friends (that we had revealed having the threesome to) both in a platonic way, and sexually. We spend a lot of time together doing non-sexual activities, and we talk more about sex, watch porn together, read erotica occasionally, and it seems that there has been some more intense flirting going on.

I guess I would like some advice on how to continue with the situation. My fiance and I are talking more and more in depth about swinging, and have figured out a few things.
a) Both of us find the idea of being with another couple (not a single person) very sexy, and the idea of seeing each other with other people very sexy.
b) I (a woman), would like to explore my bisexuality more, but with my partner.
c) both of us have fantasies involving more than just one person, i.e. double penetration... which could be fulfilled by swinging
d) neither of us like the idea of anonymous sex, or having sex with couples we don't know
e) we like the idea of allowing each other to try being with other people and getting that experience under our belt (so to say). I have only been with my current partner sexually. We got together when we were 17.
f) We would both prefer a more intimate, emotional connection to the couple we are involving, and figure that a couple we have been BEST friends with (all four of us) for almost 10 years would be a safe place to look for people we already trust and care about.
g) we know neither of us would threaten their relationship, and we know that neither of them would threaten our relationship.
h) There is major sexual tension that seems to build every time we see them.
i) We spend the night at their house, and vise versa, frequently, because we live in different towns, and really enjoy each other's company.
j) we already discussed all going to get Brazilian waxes together for valentine's day.
k) Both my fiance and I feel that if its something we didn't like, or something they didn't like, we could return to the level of friendship we had because we would all be able to talk about what happened, and we all respect each other's boundaries.

Do you think this is a situation where swinging might work out? Is it a bad idea to swing with good friends? Is there a certain way to go about broaching the subject with them? I mean, we talk about sex, and are very open, but I think it would be hard for me to actually ask if they might be interested in that... And I want to make sure we talk about it all together before anything happened. Any tips or suggestions on where to get from here?

Thank you all for reading through this, I know it was kind of long, but I just feel (from reading what I have) that this particular situation hasn't quite been addressed, and I would love some input.

THANK YOU!!!

[oncewere]

Many people advise against playing with friends but we've seen it work out more often than not. In any case you seem to be well down the road already. They seem to be good enough friends that some serious exploration wouldn't threaten the relationship.

Three modest suggestions:
Talk to her woman to woman about your feelings and concerns. You'll each wheedle out of each other what you really feel like.

Some evening arrange to sit around the computer with them and show them some discussion threads on this board which might be interesting to them. Include yours and see how they feel about it. Don't tell them it's yours until they've read it and you've discussed it. Use the forums to initiate conversation.

Get "carried away" some evening when you are watching porn together. Heavy make-out, see how they react then maybe make love to your SO in front of them. Watch their reactions to see how far you should proceed.

[carlos_pchot]

Hi There, i think oncewere had said it right, have to agree on their 3 suggestions, just keep doing what you have been doing so far: Talking!! you have gotten this far because you dared to talk with them about it, so keep doing it!!
You can get a sexy card game to play on one of your usual evening encounters and see where it gets you, always going starting soft and going to higher levels of intimacy.
One thing that everybody knows for sure, it's that women rule the swinging lifestyle, so tell to your gf that have a good chat or talking with the other woman and I'm sure they'll be able to see if there's a chance for it, look, if they both (women) want to do it, it's probably going to happen, because I don't think you're going to let go that chance to enjoy yourselves with them, but of course, always try to set how far you want to go, the comfortable zone, so you both won't make again the same mistakes that had with your threesome.
Would recommend a soft swinging for starters, and see where you can both develop from there, just watch and be watched, a game or a movie can be a great trigger for it, since everybody it's already in the mood after a while without making any big work.
Would love to know how you do with it, keep it up and hope to see your friends on the site soon too!!
Take care

[good times]

Can't say I would agree completely with what has been said above. We had a very similar situation with our longtime friends before we started swinging. In fact, it had gone much further than what you describe as having done with your friends, to the point that we had done what we came to know as "soft swinging" with them on several occasions. Once we approached them directly about going further than we had been though, they took it badly and we haven't been friends since.

I would say that making swing partners out of friends is possible but much more often than not it turns out badly. We have seen the stories here on the board over and over again.

That being said, if you do decide to pursue it with them I have a couple of suggestions that might help you avoid what happened to us.

First, discuss it with them in a general way. Don't say something like "hey what do you guys think about having sex with us?" or something similar. Say something like, "what do you think about these people that are into having open relationships, do you think that is something you could ever do?". That way you get to find out what they think about it without putting them on the spot or making them feel that you want them to jump in the sack with you. In this case the indirect approach is best.

This is very important, discuss it with them when you are all sober. If you are all partying hardy you will find that the answers you get don't hold up under the light of sobriety.

Whatever you do, do not try to coerce them into it, or try to seduce them as some have suggested above. In my opinion, based on experience, more often than not you will end up with friends that won't call you the next day, or ever after for that matter, if you use this approach.

If you discuss it with them rationally, in general terms, it shouldn't take long to find out if they are receptive at all to the idea. If they seem to be receptive then you can get more direct and see if they would be interested in going there with you. In our experience and from reading about the experience of others, one of two things will probably happen. Either they will reveal somewhere in the general conversation that they had been considering swinging themselves or actually are active swingers, or more likely, they will respond to the general discussion with distaste and be appalled that anyone would consider such a thing, at which point you can change the subject and forget about it, no harm no foul.

Don't be surprised if they throw it right back at you saying something like, "no, we could never do that, could you?" In this case you can answer back with something like, "we aren't sure but we are curious about it". You never know, often times if you handle it right it is like planting a seed. People tend to be appalled by the idea when they first here it, thinking that this type of thing only happens in porn movies. But when they get to thinking about it later and start discussing it with each other, the idea might become appealing to them. Regardless of whether this happens or not, from your standpoint it is best never to bring the subject up with them again, if the seed you planted germinates, they will bring it up to you.

[intuition897]

Well BG, I usually advise against swinging with close friends, but then again, I'm a bit of a control freak and I readily admit that I am NOT a risk-taker by nature. It's something I have to force myself to be, because I realize that there's great value in it. But in this caase, you and your fiancee strike me as the type that has thought this through quite a lot. You've already had one stinker of an experience, but while that might've stopped other couples in their tracks and sent them home crying, you are using it as a stepping stone...not a stumbling block. A "learning experience", as you said. This is absolutely vital to success at swinging. Lemons into lemonade.

Also, while there is definitely a risk that your relationship with your friends could change for the worse, that usually only happens when it is allowed to happen. If all four of you are determined to not allow a little sexual experimentation interfere with the friendship you share, then it won't. It IS just an experiment. It IS just sex. And only the four of you know whether or not you can handle it. You seem to have excellent communication all around, which is great. If it does work out for you, I'll definitely be envious. I only wish we had playmates that we were close friends with.

[blueguitar]

All of you have had interesting viewpoints, and have give me a lot to think about! Its really great to hear these ideas from all of you who have had more experience, so thank you for taking the time to write back!

I actually forgot to mention (I was very tired when I wrote that original post) that we already have a bit of a sexual past. About 5 years ago, my fiance and I had sex together about 4 feet away from the two of them having sex... and it was exciting and worked out just fine. Since then, we have had sex in the same tent at the same time. So, there is some history of almost "soft swinging", which also helps.

[The_Phoenyxes]

Hello Blue! Mr. Bird and I were in a very similar situation with a good friend of ours. He was our best friend for a few years and we spent a lot of time with him. Eventually after a day of heavy flirting between me and our good friend and my husbands want to fulfill one of my greatest fantasies (and the pact that he trusted our friend very much), we all ended up naked and hugging each other by the end of the night and haven’t looked back ! It definitely wasn’t something we though would happen, but once it did we all felt like it was a positive experience and we've been lucky to keep such a good friendship going even after the big change we made to it. I think what everyone has suggested is good advice and you really should keep doing what you have been so far. Intuition had it right on, a problem only seems to happen when you let them happen and communication is indeed key when in the lifestyle. You sound like you have thought this through and I’m sure you will be able to get this all worked out. Good luck to you and I hope everything works out!

[blueguitar]

Thank you Mrs.Bird! Its really really reassuring to hear the stories of others who have been in similar situations. What everyone has said has reinforced what myself and mr.blueguitar were already feeling, which is good. It's tough for me, because I tend to be the kind of person who once decided on something, I want to take action. However, I know we need to take it slow, and see what happens. Which is fine, but man! Have the fantasies been rolling through my head about what is possible sexually between four people. Its exciting!!! (literally, )

I just hope I am interpreting their actions (and words) correctly, and that once we find ourselves talking about it, they are interested.

Mr.Blueguitar and I keep talking about it, since it's still a very new idea to us. Its interesting finding out where our boundaries lie, and analyzing that from different view points. For example, we have discussed how I am pretty sure I would have no problem being with either one of them (male or female), and in fact have fantasies of being with each of them & both of them, and mr.blueguitar. I also have no problem seeing him with her, that doesn't bother me. However, he still has some reservations (of course, we haven't been talking about it that long) about seeing me with another man, but not with another woman. However, he seems fairly sure that is something that will slowly change as we talk about it more.

Interesting how society conditions us though huh? Its okay to be with another woman, but not with another man. That seems to be the overwhelming idea in the US.

Okay, done musing here. Thanks for the advice! Also, anyone else who has a similar story, please share!

[iapr]

In regards to playing with your friends, as a general knee-jerk rule it is usually a bad idea to play with friends. If you do have sex with them it will change the nature and dynamics of your friendship. That does not mean that it has to change it for the worse or that anything bad has to happen but the relationship will change and there is a risk of disaster and the question you have to ask yourself is are you willing to take that risk.

Ok now that I have said the standard disclaimer to keep all the lawyers happy I will also bring this up, if you have been sharing sex stories with them, watching porn with them, doing so serious flirting with them and all of this has been creating sexual tension in both you and your partner and in them as well then to a certain extent you are already swinging to a degree. You may not have screwed them or even touched them yet but you have brought another couple into your bedroom metaphorically speaking. From your description it has also altered some of the dynamics of your relationship with them though from what I have been able to determine it has been positive and has brought you closer. That may be a good or a bad thing. There is a possibility that as you delve deeper into this relationship with them things could continue to go well and all could be good. However you never know what will happen once things go physical.

you have already had one physical encounter that did not go well and left some residual bad after taste in your mouth are you ready to risk that with long term friends? Here are some questions to ask yourselves

- Are you and your partner as solid as you think you are or could being physical with someone else bring out some insecurities. As these are close friends they each know where you live, your personal phone #s, emails, etc. They will know when one of you is at work or out of town, is there a possibility of one just happening to "stop by" while one of you is out of the house? Will you start to worry about that or get suspicious down the road?

Are they as secure a couple as they seem? Will one of them be at risk of falling in love with one of you? Will one of them try to sneak in a little "off duty" time with one of you? If so what would the fallout be?

What if you do have some kind of falling out, will they "out" you to your other friends and family?

If you and your partner have a big fight will one of you go running to them for "comfort" or will one of them do the same if they have a big fight?

What if one of you (as in couples) decides you want to become actual swingers and go to parties and meet a variety of couples/singles and the other wants your relationship to be exclusive, what then?

What if they become active swingers and get outed outside of your relationship and all your friends and family now know that they are now swingers and also know you are very close friends with them? Will that create talk around town?


Here is a very real possibility, what if you do have sex with them and it sucks? Here is a newsflash, some people are not very good in bed and do not do it for you. Just because you are close and good friends does not mean the sex will be good. What if one of you likes it and the other doesn't? Is one of you going to take one for the team whenever you get together for one of your friday night pizza parties?


Here is another possibility, what if you have sex with them and it is the best sex ever? What if you love it and your partner is greatly disappointed or vice versa? Are you going to be looking at the other guy with sneaking sideways glances for the rest of your life? Or what if she does it for him big time are you going to get insecure every time he is around her?

What if one of you couples really enjoys it and the other doesn't? What kind of discomfort is that going to create?


I am truly not trying to sow the seeds of paranioa but these are some of the things to think about before jumping into sack with friends. In your original post you said you did not want to swing with people you didn't know or weren't real close with but there are some huge advantages to people you meet through the lifestyle as opposed to close friends you have known your whole life. With lifestyle buddies if it appears that there is any drama or issues looming on the horizon you cut your losses and go back home and call it a day. When the shit hits the fan with lifelong friends you can be left with too many pieces than can be put back together.

[scottjlee]

you never indicated who the threesome was with..was it a man or woman.just helps to figure out who is the one that might be feeling guilty

[blueguitar]

Some good points iapr. Too tired to respond right now, but it was encouraging to myself when I skimmed through it and felt reassured that my SO and I had already talked about many of those situations, and had thoughts on the others. I will respond later when I have had more sleep.

Wanted to go into more detail about what happened with the threesome my SO and I had. We had gone camping with a group of friends, and halfway through the trip which was 4 days long, everyone except my SO, myself, and one of our close friends (a woman) had to leave. So it was just the three of us, and having spent much time together, and all three of us being close friends for the most part, we proceed to get drunk and dance around the campfire. That in itself, while not the smartest thing to do, was perfectly harmless and fun. However, after our woman friend and I had put away 1/5 of tequila between the two of us, and my SO had had a large bottle of wine, we decided to warm up (it was below freezing) in the tent, and smoke some weed. We all curled up under the blanket, and being highly intoxicated, and with three people in a small area, we just started touching, and we ended up having a full blown threesome, minus oral sex and kissing. Granted, before we really got hot and heavy, even though everyone realized what was happening, my SO and I looked at each other, and made sure the other one wasn't totally freaking out, as much as we could while intoxicated. (i.e. we were equal partners in crime) Afterwards, it was really weird, and we were starting to sober up, and we realized what happened. However, we all remember it happening.


There were several reasons why this situation wasn't okay with me, or my SO:
1) We had already talked about threesomes, and had decided we didn't want one (at that point in our relationship)

2) We were all EXTREMELY drunk when it happened, and as I would have been able to tell myself while I was sober, its best not to engage in that kind of sexual act when greatly intoxicated. If I wouldn't do it sober, I don't want to be doing it drunk/stoned.

2a) Our third had a boyfriend. She told him as soon as she got home, but that made us feel really guilty and awful, we didn't want to hurt him.

3) It was not with a person either of us felt attracted to.

4) While we were both there, as a couple, which is why we have been able to not let it affect our relationship, it was something we had agreed not to do, as a couple, but we did it anyway.

5) I really know you aren't supposed to be really drunk when this type of thing is going on. It just wasn't talked about or planned.

6) Anything my SO and I include in our sex life, we want to have talked about, and worked the kinks out of first.

I can only say that we were all 21 when it happened, and we were all in a somewhat party/crazy exploration stage at the time. And when you get drunk, emotions and feelings get amplified, and my SO and I were horny, she picked up on it, we picked up on her being horny, and it got crazy. Despite it being weird at first after it happened, especially given the circumstances, we have brought our friendship back to where it was before, not too long after this happened.

This all happened, and within a week afterwards, we told the friends that we want to swing with now about it, to get help dealing with all the stuff that came up as a result. Our friends related a similar experience, slightly different outcome, but very similar overall. The four of us have helped each other work out all the weird feelings that we've each had, and we've all been really supportive of each other about it.

In short, mr.blue and I feel very deeply that both of us would (and have the more we talk) be able to bring swinging into our lives very successfully. We have already had countless conversations regarding all aspects of swinging, relationships, love, sex, intimacy, friendships, what if's, etc. We've talked about all different types of situations we could find ourselves in, and what we would each be comfortable doing or seeing the other do. The great thing is, that because we have talked so much about sex with this couple we are friends with, we have a really good idea of what they like and do in sex, and its really close to how we would describe our sex life. Not that that tells us how good they are in bed or anything, but there is certainly a good attraction vibe going there as well as good communication vibe as well.

Who knows if anything will actually happen with them. Its okay if it doesn't, astounding and wonderful if it does, but either way it's spiced up our sex life already. We've shared our fantasies about it, both during sex and normal conversation. It even inspired me to write my first erotica, which seemed to turn out rather well, if a bit short. But, I lose track.

Sorry to ramble there, when I type out my thoughts, it gets kind of wordy.

Any thoughts or questions are more than welcome!!