Vanilla friends who express and interest in swinging...

[sereneiders]

Moonlight,

I'd say you were right in you analysis, but also that you did a partial analysis here.

The questions it seems to me you didn't address was "why they're asking this question?" and "why they're asking US (specifically) this question?". That they know you're swingers isn't the proper answer, moreover, I'd say that what they think about why you're swingers was more relevant.

The reaction they had afterwards was against their own expectation on the outcome from asking you those questions. It seems to me those folks were in pain and wanted to move to some faster lante to get rid of the pain, as a desperate resource, as if they were expecting to be pushed into "swinging" (I quote the word because I am meaning what they understand swinging is about) by you two, who knows... get both a screw able to provide a relief.

What seems pretty obvious (after knowing the outcome, which is way easier than figuring this out beforehand) is that these guys made up their minds about using recreational sex as tool to deal with their pain way before this meeting with you, they look for someone able to ease the path to that tool, you were there as the obvious candidates, and they figured out that asking questions about swinging would be the proper way to reach their goal. When they found a wall (one perhaps more solid than the one their pastor/counselor would show them, but just because it was well grounded in the reality), they freaked out.

There's another problem here, and it is the way you two, presicelly because of being swingers, are being perceived by these guys, and the way they think your marriage is. It seems they extrapolated what happens to them today to what may be happening, or had happend before, to you two: that you two engage in swinging to run away of the pain in your marriage.

Perhpas this is the more concerning thing here, because this is fepriving you from a ground from where to throw them a piece of rope to help them come out from the water.

As an aside, I doubt of the hability a pastor may have to act as a counselor in this very case. This couple is thinking on their own on alternative ways to solve their problems, and because of the morals involved it is likely that they're deprived from the chance of discussing them with the pastor, and it is likely that the pastor wouldn't be able to avoid a prejudgamental attitude if they were bringing the subject. The fact is, they way they understand this lifestyle is pretty close to those prejudices, as to have a well grounded explanation on why this isn't a solution.

It is supposed that a counselor should help them to think about the problem and reach their own conclussions, and for this to be effective they should be able to take a look at every aspect of the problem and inspect every alternative they think of, with the counselour help to remain objective. So far it seems to me this counselor doesn't fit the requirements: they have a huge issue with their sexuality, and no one seems to be helping then being objective about this. They have a foolish attitude as a result of the desperation when meeting you, which tells me this counselour is failing to achieve his task.

[JnCC]

"Men get to China, both by the straights, and by the Cape"

Likewise, swinging. Ideally, a couple comes into this as a shared adventure. But sometimes, one or both partners just need a little more "novelty" in some facet of their life than any one person can possibly give them. When they decide that they're in the mood for something different, whether it's sex, romance, or intellectual stimulation, all the counseling in the world won't help them. They'll delibrately pick fights with their partner in order to justify (to themselves, at least) doing whatever it is they want to do.

If they're in therapy, they'll sabotage the process in any way they can. It's their unhappiness that justifies their affair with the other person.

For some people, knowing that being in a relationship doesn't have to mean "One pussy (or one dick) FOREVER" is what gives them the strength to commit to that relationship in the first place.

Sharing some of the details about your lifestyle with your friends may give them another perspective with which to approach their marriage. Just make sure they understand that this is something you do to enhance your marriage, not replace it.

[MissMaryPA]

Hi there....

I've been involved in similar situations several times in the past---meaning, trying to talk someone out of damaging their marriage because they're foolishly trying to bandage it with swinging or with an affair. And it IS foolish. Personally, I think you've done the ethical thing in providing the warnings and advice. Whether they take it or not---well, that's their decision and they are being irresponsible and judgmental in trying to abdicate some of the responsibility for that decision onto you.

I hope things worked out well for you and for your friends.

[MoonLightKiss]

Originally Posted by JnCC

Sharing some of the details about your lifestyle with your friends may give them another perspective with which to approach their marriage. Just make sure they understand that this is something you do to enhance your marriage, not replace it.

Thank you for your advice on this. When we were all talking about it the first night, I explained my view points on it, told them that they were only my personal opinions, and told them about this site, in the hopes that someone with more experience would be able to guide them better since I am still new to this.

They have not posted anything that I can see, although plenty of people lurk and perhaps that is what they are doing now. They refuse to go to counseling, and both of them are disagreeing over the lifestyle. She is determined to do it with or without him, while he refuses to do it. At this point I have bowed out gracefully and refuse to offer any opinions on it. I do not think it wise to be dragged into their problems, nor do I want to be forced to take sides. So I offer them coffee when one of them stops by, give them a shoulder to cry on, and when they ask me what they should do, I simply tell them, I can not answer that question for them, they must decide for themselves, although I do love them and will be there for them. I gave them the number to the counselor we used several years ago, and simply told them "in case its an option you want to pursue".

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by MoonLightKiss

Thank you for your advice on this. When we were all talking about it the first night, I explained my view points on it, told them that they were only my personal opinions, and told them about this site, in the hopes that someone with more experience would be able to guide them better since I am still new to this.

They have not posted anything that I can see, although plenty of people lurk and perhaps that is what they are doing now. They refuse to go to counseling, and both of them are disagreeing over the lifestyle. She is determined to do it with or without him, while he refuses to do it. At this point I have bowed out gracefully and refuse to offer any opinions on it. I do not think it wise to be dragged into their problems, nor do I want to be forced to take sides. So I offer them coffee when one of them stops by, give them a shoulder to cry on, and when they ask me what they should do, I simply tell them, I can not answer that question for them, they must decide for themselves, although I do love them and will be there for them. I gave them the number to the counselor we used several years ago, and simply told them "in case its an option you want to pursue".

It would be nice if simply becoming "swingers" would fix their problems, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The path between "troubled marriage" and "successful swingers" doesn't lie in a straight line, it passes through a place called "trusting and committed relationship." If they start doing this now, they'll only bring their lack of trust and committment into the lifestyle with them, which as any experienced swinger knows, simply accelerates them along the path to ruin.

Have you ever seen one of those shows where they hijack some guys old car and rebuild it into a high-dollar hot-rod? Notice how the first thing they do after dismantling the entire car, is to repair the basic things that are wrong with it...rusted panels and floors, bent frames, stuff like that. Once that's done, THEN they start making all the "improvements" that make it a hot-rod...bigger engines, better suspension and brakes, fancy paint, etc.

The lifestyle is like that too. You have to have a solid foundation before you start this, or you're just wasting your time. It sounds like your friends don't have that foundation. When she says she's "doing this with or without him," she's drawing a line in the sand that she's hoping he won't cross. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if he does agree to do this with her, she'll draw another line in the sand. This time it will be to do this with people he doesn't approve of, or MFM only, or some such thing. This doesn't sound like a woman who's trying to reinvigorate her marriage, it sounds like a woman who's making a power-grab.

You're very wise not to take sides in this. I have a feeling (borne of some personal experience) that 6 months after they split, she'll be having second thoughts about their breakup, while he'll be having the time of his life. It's then that she'll need a friend like you...

[HappyPeople]

I believe the whole situation is their fowl... Asking a friend what you should do with your sex life and marriage is totally inappropriate because you're never going to like the answer no matter what it is.

People experiencing that much drama should hunker down and not draw others into thier vortex of madness. If a profession couselor is what they need, they should get it not try to seek free guidance from thier friends only to bash them for it.

I do not believe that there is advice you could have given without them thinking you shit for saying it.

[imsnowman]

Originally Posted by MoonLightKiss

Alright, really gonna work hard at keeping this short, so wish me luck.

Was I wrong about them not being ready? Should I have kept my mouth shut and just told them to come here, that I was too new to answer their questions?

Hopefully, they'll read these posts and not retaliate against yall somehow.