When swingers become friends and things go downhill

[northindycpl]

So I am turning to you my SB friends, to hear me out and most importantly, guide us into the next chapter of our swinging world.

When you pass the title of Newbie but still don't think you have had enough experience to be considered Pro's- you wind up in between and that is where we are.

Typically, we are somewhat casual friends with our playmates. Arranging activities, going to clubs, whatever. We are not a notch gathering couple, and prefer to meet and see couples we have vertical fun and friendship with- or so we thought.

We met a couple last year and starting spending time with them. They are new to couples, not the lifestyle really, they have had a several year's long MFM situation with a single man, which was their only experience. After they met us they decided they wanted to try couples and they decided to try us.

Honestly, the sex wasn't great, but the sex coupled with the friendship was nice. She became my friend, he became Mr. Indy's. I spent a lot of time answering her questions about sex, swinging, etc. and we spent a lot of time 'mentoring' them on rules, boundaries, etc.

Becomming a friend to people you seek recreational sex and fun with, seemed like a good idea. Kill Two birds with one stone, I thought. We didn't have any type of of exclusive friendship with them or anything. We still sought out other couples and still went out. We just really started seeing them a lot. We saw them more than anyone else.

There were things that occurred that were irritating to us-because of the depth of the friendship that was forming. Things that wouldn't be irritating if they were just friends. But were irritating because they were friends we fuck. We began to know a lot of stuff about their vanilla lives. Job issues, kid issues, money issues.

Because of those things occuring in their lives, there was drama. There was a lot of drama. Because of the drama we don't play. We haven't played with them in about 8 weeks. Mr. Indy and I just don't want to. Mr. Indy and I just stopped having fun, and stopped wanting to see them. The drama just consumed our friendship.

Mr. Indy and I had a long talk about it, and we decided to give them an opportunity to reform the friendship within mutually exceptable boundaries.
(IE stop telling us all your problems with money, kids, job)

We tried to clear the air with them, many times. Give them an opportunity to clear the air with us. Nothing worked.

We decided for our sake to end it.

So we have now ended everything with them. In fact, I did it today with an email. (Chicken-shit as that may be)

I feel terrible. My heart hurts. As frustrating as they were, I still feel like I could just cry. We made the right decision, but it still hurts a bit.

I know it is best to add it up to experience. But this experince sucks. I have lost my friend and we have lost a couple we used to have fun with. This experience has caused me to greatly reflect on our experience.

How do you not get some sort of emotional tie to the people you swing with, those that become friends over a period of time? How do you not care about them to a degree? How do you end a longer term friendship when it isn't good for you anymore?

I find that I have to have some sort of connection and desire for the other couple. I have to have had a few meetings (maybe drinks and coffee) before I am ready to play. I have found that the longer I know them, the better they play becomes because of the added trust and security that is present. But in that time, I just don't see how you don't become friends?

I think that this couple looked to us as their Mentor couple. Maybe I did get attached and egotistical because of that. Maybe I am just disappointed because my idea for them was something bigger then was possible for them to achieve. Maybe we should just start collecting notches.

My gut says to not become friends with anyone we play with again. Seek out our pleasure and run at the first sign of 'friendship'. But, I still just don't think that is going to fit my wants out of the lifestyle.

I am also wondering if you guys think this happen because of their newness or inexperience with couples.

Fill me in on this chapter. I look to you for guidance.

[Maybe_Someday]

Mrs. Indy,

I am sorry for your loss. It is unfortunate that this relationship has ended, but I agree it was for the best for you and Mr. Indy.

As some one who has not yet been swinging, I am curious about the same questions you pose. How close is too close? Do you have to set emotional boundaries like you set physical/sexual boundaries? I too would like to here what others have to say.

MS
-----
Swinging would be nice, but Vanilla is better than Rocky Road

[biblonde]

We usually have a friendship with those we play with. We chatt online, talk on the phone, go on vanilla type outings and such and doing that you do get some attatchment. We feel there is an unspoken rule that first...money is never discussed with ANYONE...not even family it is our business and if someone else starts talking about it we change the subject. As for family problems and job..that would get annoying real fast! Even with vanilla friends it would annoy us. I dont mind hearing some but not constantly. It would take the fun out of it for sure. As for how you are feeling..Well you did loose a friend and well that hurts but because of the issues I think you did the right thing. When hearing about problem after problem it brings you down also and well I think life should be fun. I wouldnt say though that you shouldnt build friendships with those you play with. We have lifestyle friends that are also vanilla type friends. And we have friends in the lifestyle that are only vanilla type friends with us. We share pics of new toys...say hi how are ya....and such we just dont play with them..although we have in the past it just wasnt what we were looking for. Then we have had playmates that got overly possesive and well they went on their way...Lifestyle friends is something that is special at least to us...we can talk about everything and not have to worry about saying the wrong thing (which I have accidently done to people that had no idea about us..yickes!!) Look at it this way...you really did give them chance after chance after chance and well ....they didnt get it. Take a deep breath and know you did do the right thing with these guys and the pain will go away in time. We have had to give up friends that we really liked because they just didnt get it and yes it hurts alot and you think about them often but it gets better as time goes on. Dont beat yourself up over it...know you did what you had to do for YOU guys which is the most important in life. I really hope you feel better about this soon and best of luck to you guys!!!

[northindycpl]

That is a good question and thanks for posting a reply to my long thread. I think you do have to set emotional boundaries. Mr. Indy and I have to a degree. The gray area for me seems to be what happens after time. I mean, even after time I become somwhat attached to my mailman or hairstylist. I think it is just human nature. People still care about people.

I am waiting to read others thoughts, too.

[biblonde]

Your right there is an emotional attatchment and really I have no answer on how to not become that way. I love that feeling of being safe and freedom you have with someone you trust and feel close to. The loss is always hard to deal with. We have never tried to set emotional boundries other than dont tell either of us you love us (in that way..we had a lady ask hubby to marry her after they finished playing which I didnt think was funny in any way!!) but other than that we like the friendship to build and go in whatever direction it takes us. Which I guess kinda sets us up for heartache at times...but that is life I guess.

[tribbles]

I'm sorry for your loss too. We are still pretty new at this and do think mostly we want friends with benefits. Maybe there will be too much drama tho...
Looking forward to more on how others cope with this.
Thanks for sharing

S

[WoodyInSoCal]

I have been swinging as a single for a long time and have made several deep and meaningful relationships with some of the couples and single women I've met.

One couple celebrates my familys birthdays with me and I with them. They have accompanied me to family funerals too.

I think it is inevitable that if you intend to have more than a "Hit and Run" play time that you will develop a deeper attraction to some of your playmates.

And I think it's just like when two people have a relationship. Sometimes there's lots of baggage that comes with the person. So it is with a couple.

I think that when you become friends, not just a monentary pleasure, then you have to be a real friend - sharing and giving advice and asking for advice and laughing together, and crying together. That's what friends do for one another.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by northindycpl

Honestly, the sex wasn't great, but the sex coupled with the friendship was nice. She became my friend, he became Mr. Indy's. I spent a lot of time answering her questions about sex, swinging, etc. and we spent a lot of time 'mentoring' them on rules, boundaries, etc.

I don't see your story so much about loss as it is about feeling bad - maybe even a little guilty - about dumping your playpartners. It's never fun, or easy, to tell people that you no longer want to be friends.

You admit the sex wasn't that great, so I doubt you're missing that part of the relationship with these people. I think the strength of the relationship was built on the good feeling you got from helping people learn more about swinging. It was rewarding to see them blossom and grow with your assitance. They appreciated you, and you added something unique and special to their life.

I think that if you hadn't minded hearing these people talk about the drama in their life all the time, you would have kept these people as friends and the relationship would have evolved to a nonswinging one over time.

But the scale was falling to the side of negativity, drama, and downer conversations with this couple. The positives were disappearing. That's no fun in a vanilla friendship let alone in a swinging one.

These decisions arise, whether with swinger or nonswinger friends, and our emotions will always be tugged at. But I feel that's okay. It lets us know we have hearts. We are better people, and swingers, for it.

LM

[twoplayful2]

Interesting question and look forward to reading more replies Unfortunately, not much advice we can offer since we're most definitely in that inbetween area as well. I was sorta wondering though if you can just have a relationship with another couple where you're just like fuck-buddies? Like when you're younger and single and you've got a friend of the opposite sex that you just managed to cross just the right lines with. It's probably tougher with singles since someone is always looking for a mate but if you've got a friend that rates somewhere between maybe casual to good friend and you can just have totally no-strings sex with whenever you're both feeling in the mood it doesn't seem like it would be that big a deal if sometimes a little real-life drama sometimes got in the way and one or both of you weren't in the mood. Seems like the same could work for couples. We've got a vanilla couple we're great friends with that we'd never have sex with but we do get extremely sexually flirty with whenever we're all partying together. Honestly, sometimes they're a pain in the ass, totally drive me nuts. But next time we're together we're good again, maybe flirty again. Couldn't that work but just sub sex for flirty?

EDIT: and sorry if I'm side-tracking or confusing things too much...it all made more sense in my head!

[northindycpl]

The casual friendships (ie Fuck buddies) is a way to go. What I have found is that, your friendship does evolve over time. Maybe you start there, and the more you see each other, the more valued the relationship becomes. The deeper it becomes.

I think you meet different types of swingers. There are certainly swingers that are just fun people. People that you meet up with, laugh with and screw. Over time, you find you have little in common outside of swinging, and so even though they have become good friends, it is still just fun and sex. But sometimes you want more. Sometimes, accidentally you find more.

Then you have the couples that start off as the couples above, but over time you find that you share a lot of similar interests. People you genuinely enjoy both in and out of the bedroom. That adds an extra level of friendship to your swinging. There is an extra level of mutual generosity, trust, compassion for each other that just doesn't exist with the other kind of swinging. And when that happens, even if (like in our case) the sex isn't the hottest you've ever had, it makes it the hottest because you have this extra je ne sais qua in the background.

That extra level develops into a bond of sorts. Then something goes astray and you are left with the loss. It takes a lot of time to develop that extra level, and as with anything else, your emotional attachment forms. I am not talking about a romantic or sexual attachment. I am talking about emotionally attached to them as friends. Just like you were emotionally attached to your best friend in highschool or college. Expect these are people that you have no pretenses with.

It is just different. The sexual chemistry felt, is different.

My underlying question is; can you have that different better sex with great friends, and not create and emotional bond? Is it just impossible to do?

And it occured to me last night, maybe it is us. Maybe we didn't close converstaions we had with them quickly enough. Maybe we should set conversation boundaries. Does anyone out there do that?

[islandgirl]

Friends.....where do you draw the line with any friends......the money discussion for me is a big one certainly, I grew up in an environment where money, religion and politics were discussions not for the dinner table, and avoided as much as possible....I believe that is a good thing for the most part though the religion and politics can be fun to debate with the right people at the right time.

We all have drama and troubles in our lives, sometimes it is hard to see that we aren't the only ones in this position though, which is where discussing them with people we feel are our friends can help. When we have a friend who is always in a negative mood though, it is a big downer, and who really wants to be there........of course it depends on many factors (type of relationship, length of it...you get the jist)

For me this is an interesting thread.....being in a small place like we are, the potential playmates are limited, and being friends with them in both a vanilla setting and a swinging setting is necessary. We have yet to swing, and I am perusing this board regularly to help us in setting our own rules.....this is one of the factors that hadn't come to mind as a possible problem. Thanks for the food for thought!

[Vespertine]

Originally Posted by islandgirl

Friends.....where do you draw the line with any friends......the money discussion for me is a big one certainly, I grew up in an environment where money, religion and politics were discussions not for the dinner table, and avoided as much as possible....I believe that is a good thing for the most part though the religion and politics can be fun to debate with the right people at the right time.

We adhere to the same guidelines. We never discuss money, religion or politics with aquaintances. We may have some friendly debates with our close friends regarding religion or politics, but only if they're the type of people that can discuss those topics without jumping on their soapbox.

I also always make an effort never to talk negatively about my spouse/children to people. We're a team and if I put him/them down to others, I put myself down as well by doing so.

[dutch51]

This whole thread is very interesting, and similar to something we've been discussing a lot lately. We're probably nuts, but we want to be friends with our playmates and as a result sometimes run into difficulty. We like couples who are like us- married, with kids and the ones we get along with the best are actually a bit older than we are- we like to have things in common, shared interests, etc. That way we have something to talk about besides just sex, lol. Being physically attracted to a couple is easy, but we've learned that if that's the only thing we've got going with another couple, then any playtime with them leaves us feeling rather empty and disappointed. For us, we need to feel a connection on more than one level- it makes the sex better and lots more fun for everyone.

Now, that being said, we also don't want to be so close that we know their every deep dark secret. If they are having marital discord or money problems, we don't need details because that just makes everyone feel awkward. But we like to be able to do social things with another couple that may or may not lead to playtime later, and even going someplace fun where we can take kids is a welcome change when we can arrange it.

It can be a hard line to walk though- getting too close, knowing too much and the drama that can ensue. We feel for you northindycpl, because that's not an easy situation to be in. It seems like you made the right decision though, for everyone's sake. Once things get too difficult, sometimes you have no choice but to go your separate ways.

You did raise an interesting point with your question about conversation boundaries. We've not looked at it that way before, but that's not a bad idea. We've always tried to stay aware of emotional or physical boundaries, and the rest seemed to fall in line, but it just makes sense to have certain topics off-limits. We don't normally discuss money really, but religion and politics have come up as a normal course of exchange. Not as a debate, more like discussing news of the day. That hasn't been a problem; what we've run into has been when someone wants to share too much about their spouse or their personal history without involving their spouse first. We don't want to be told anything that your spouse doesn't already know about unless it's plans for a surprise birthday party, lol. We do not want to be dragged into another couple's marital dramas. It tends to make us want to run away as fast as we can.... and we have...


From northindycpl
Then you have the couples that start off as the couples above, but over time you find that you share a lot of similar interests. People you genuinely enjoy both in and out of the bedroom. That adds an extra level of friendship to your swinging. There is an extra level of mutual generosity, trust, compassion for each other that just doesn't exist with the other kind of swinging. And when that happens, even if (like in our case) the sex isn't the hottest you've ever had, it makes it the hottest because you have this extra je ne sais qua in the background.

That extra level develops into a bond of sorts. Then something goes astray and you are left with the loss. It takes a lot of time to develop that extra level, and as with anything else, your emotional attachment forms. I am not talking about a romantic or sexual attachment. I am talking about emotionally attached to them as friends. Just like you were emotionally attached to your best friend in highschool or college. Expect these are people that you have no pretenses with.

It is just different. The sexual chemistry felt, is different.

My underlying question is; can you have that different better sex with great friends, and not create and emotional bond? Is it just impossible to do?


We've wondered the same thing. We hope it's not impossible, but we understand it's going to take some more work. And we don't expect this with every couple we meet, but it seems to happen with certain ones, and those are the times that stick in our minds the most.

I guess we're in the same gray area you are in northindy, not really newbies, but don't consider ourselves pro's either (if there is such a thing, lol). Every new couple, situation is a learning experience and we've revised a lot of things along the way. It's been an interesting, enlightening year.

Well, this post is long enough, but we'll be looking forward to hearing others' thoughts and ideas. Just know that you are not alone northindy... (((hugs))) to you both!

[WildMiCouple]

This is quite an intriguing topic, Mrs. Indy. Not necessarily one you even think about until the dynamics of it surface.

We're still in the early stages......we've played quite a few times, but haven't developed the friendships past playmates yet. When we first ventured into the lifestyle, I was of the thought that finding couples with similar interests and seeking long term "friends with benefits" was the way to go. Tammy, on the other hand, thought that just keeping it playmates and not bringing them into our everyday life was the way to go. She didn't want the baggage and drama. Seeing your situation kinda supports her thinking.....who needs that crap :rollseyes

We would have certainly done the same thing as you in ending the relationship. We would never burden our friends with our personal problems....why would we put up with it from them? If it was vanilla friends dragging us down with too much of their problems, we'd be seeing alot less of them, if at all.

Tammy and I are both opinionated type A personalities. But, like others, we don't talk about politics, religion, and money with but a very few of our friends. I'd bet all but one friend wouldn't know what religion or political persuasion we follow Besides, you're never gonna change anyone's mind about either anyway

Brett (and Tammy)

[Dynamar]

Originally Posted by WildMiCouple

We would have certainly done the same thing as you in ending the relationship. We would never burden our friends with our personal problems....why would we put up with it from them? If it was vanilla friends dragging us down with too much of their problems, we'd be seeing alot less of them, if at all.

Indys... As others have mentioned, sorry for the loss you are feeling.

As I think about this topic... Brett seemed to sum it up best for me. If I run into a challenging situation, I compare and contrast what I'll put up with, for lack of a better term, in swinging vs. vanilla life.

I don't think laying down or discussing a bunch of "emotional boundaries" is necessary. Heck, the people those are usually aimed at often think they're immune or that your rules don't apply to them. Either you'll accept your friends or potential friends the way they are, or you won't. And if you don't, then end the relationship. Sounds curt and cold, but isn't that the way friendships are in the vanilla world? Sometimes, you just fall away from people you were once close to, other times you have to end it in some more official way. Hate to say it, but... "That's life."