Vanilla friend trying to understand

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by taomaster

You might find this quote interesting:

"The Christian influence on Western sexuality has been to keep us focused on the business of biology and alienate sex from pleasure and love. For the Christian, sex is for procreation; for the [ancient] Chinese ejaculation is for procreation, but sex is for pleasure, therapy and spiritual development. All pleasures of the flesh are deemed sinful in the Christian view, and sex as an expression of love ranks a poor third behind love of God and brotherly love. For the majority of the [ancient] Chinese, the sacred resides within nature, and sexuality as a part of nature belongs to the fundamental design of the universe. Nature is not only sacred but the source of 'medicine'; one becomes holy by becoming healthy. Sex, being a natural function, also is seen as a source of bioenergetic medicine."

- Douglas Wile, The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics

So it may not be only the love=sex=love confusion that Western culture is suffering from but a confusion as to whether sex is actually 'OK' or not. If you feel bad about your sexuality it's hard to relax and have an open mind about it.

There's nothing wrong with feeling a bit of love while having sex, is there? Maybe the real issue is the neediness, insecurity and resulting poor communication that is based on a fundamentally flawed view of sexuality as something that is 'bad' and needs to be kept 'private' and 'hidden'.

Mr. T

I'm going to make a comment here that's based on my religion so this is my little disclaimer: if you don't want to hear anything about my views of God and religion, just don't read this post, okay? I don't want to offend anyone, but religion is a part of life and as such is fair game for discussion. It plays a part in each person's decision whether to swing or not. This is just my opinion.

I am actually a Christian, but I can't remember the last time I went to church. I truly don't think that I'm twisting the Bible's words to suit my lifestyle; I'm just interpreting what I see in it realistically. What I see are people getting so hung up on minutiae of the "rules" that they don't stop and think why God made the rules in the first place. He gave me a brain, and I'm not afraid to use it. So if I follow His advice and stop getting bogged down in the fine print and just look at the main objective, the whole point is to keep it simple. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to lead a good and worthy life. You focus on not hurting people, but helping them and recognizing their beauty and potential. You stay honest and do the right thing, regardless of whether or not it's popular. Keep a sense of humour and don't wallow in the negative aspects of life but move forward and keep trying. Lead by example. Use common-sense. Don't take anything for granted, and remember to say thank you. Be a good citizen by being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Be brave and take risks. Respect yourself and your needs equally with those of others. Don't let things get to you. Remember that this life is only temporary, kinda like boot camp for the soul. And recognize a good thing when you see it. I mean, it's pretty basic stuff!

No, I don't believe that God intended sex to be some kind of thorn in our sides, a burden of the flesh. If he didn't mean for us to enjoy it, he would not have made it pleasurable. And I really think that if he meant for us to ONLY enjoy sex with our spouses, he would've taken away the desire for sex with others. It's not a cruel joke. Sex was meant to be enjoyed in moderation, just like food, sleep, liesure time, etc. It needs to be respected, but it sure doesn't need to be vilified and/or put up on a pedestal as something to be worshipped in and of its own right. I mean, come on! It's a bodily function. God wants us to get the most out of the life we were given, and we'd be doing Him a disservice if we threw this gift back in His face, saying that it was dirty or wrong, or abusing it just to indulge our selfishness.

But apparently we're sick because we don't just automatically believe what we're told by people who (they tell us) have some kind of inside knowledge of such matters. Excuse me for laughing, but I think it's pretty arrogant to believe that anyone has any kind of advantage over anyone else in matters of spirituality. The disciples weren't university educated men. They were your average working joes. They had ordinary lives that became extraordinary because people suddenly took an interest in them. Everyone has something extraordinary to offer if we'd only take the time to look.

And speaking of people in positions of power dictating values to the masses, do you suppose Dr. Phil has an ordinary text-book marriage or sex life? You don't see him taking the cameras into his house and allowing the general public to pick apart and critique his marriage style, yet he has no qualms about judging the lives of others. Swingers aren't any different from anyone else; we're just made to appear so through the lens of the camera and through the (mis)interpretations of people "in the know" like Phil. You know what they say about absolute power... I think I was born in the wrong decade.

[taomaster]

Originally Posted by BradAndJanet

I think you're right, taomaster, but I'd say 'American' not 'Western' culture. Europeans don't seem to have as many hangups about sex as do Americans.

As a European living near Brussels ('capital of Europe' - what a joke!) I would beg to differ. It's true, people here are not as prudish or uptight as some of the Americans I've met. But that doesn't mean the hangups aren't there - they're just different.

We had a really amusing time at a club a few months back that illustrated this perfectly. There just happened to be some Americans there that evening. What we noticed when watching was that the Europeans were happy to start having sex but were a bit shy about starting a conversation. The Americans seemed to have just the opposite problem!

Mr. T

[BradAndJanet]

Originally Posted by taomaster

... What we noticed when watching was that the Europeans were happy to start having sex but were a bit shy about starting a conversation. The Americans seemed to have just the opposite problem!

Mr. T

Very interesting!

-B

[twoplayful2]

Originally Posted by Mrs Spoomonkey

This part of your post just really jumped out at me. Why do "vanilla" people think or go into almost a panic when they find out your a swinger and assume that your going to try to "convert" them or something?

Mrs Spoomonkey

Before we became swingers we didnt know crap about what swingers really were or how they acted. I think all we really knew was tidbits from news stories or movies here and there. Maybe it never really occurred to us that they were just normal people like everyone else. Obviously we now know different, but all the non-swingers still out there don't really have anything to go by unless they've happened to see the VH-1 or Oprah shows, for what good those did. I can understand how "they" think the way they do though.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by twoplayful2

Before we became swingers we didnt know crap about what swingers really were or how they acted. I think all we really knew was tidbits from news stories or movies here and there. Maybe it never really occurred to us that they were just normal people like everyone else. Obviously we now know different, but all the non-swingers still out there don't really have anything to go by unless they've happened to see the VH-1 or Oprah shows, for what good those did. I can understand how "they" think the way they do though.

You're right. If you've grown up all your life eating nothing but bulls**t, been educated that "This is what 'good' tastes like", and then told that "No, cherry cheesecake tastes bad! It's bad for you!"...Well what are you supposed to believe? It's amazing what people can be convinced of if enough people buy into it. It becomes truth. Not all, but many of us came from hard-core vanilla backgrounds with a lot deprogramming that needed to happen. I can still remember equating love with sex. And I was thoroughly convinced. As you say, non-swingers out there really don't have any solid facts to go on. So the myths are perpetuated over and over again. There seems to be more awareness and openness than before I think, but I hate being labeled 'swinger' because people form an opinion about what we do before we can defend ourselves. Without the label, and with simple, intelligent, open conversation it's much easier to explain what we do. Ok, it's still not easy, but people I think are much more receptive if they think it's just a new or different concept. But as soon as you slap on your 'swinger' badge, all the old stereotypes and misinformation come right back. Sad. Really sad.

[JustMrJ]

I was raised in a 'Christian' household and my wife was raised Catholic (gotta love those Catholic girls )

I would say that I've always been more open minded. And I blame my parents. They taught me to think for myself and encouraged becoming my own person.

They taught me responsibility and respect, and all the other things that you need to co-exist peacefully in this world and I know my mother would be appalled if she knew I had swung once before or if my wife and I get to that point. (The closest we have been has been skinny dipping with two of my closest friends at the lake, specifically, the two I had a swing with when I was younger.)

Most people don't understand the part about it being fun, and twist it all up to be some kind of trust breaking, cheating, evil, thing.

I can honestly say that sex is fun and if consenting adults choose to do so... then by all means GO FOR IT!

I think the main hangup with a lot of folks again is what SpooMonkey and others are saying about what is 'ingrained' in us. We've been fed the same line for so long we believe it.

My wife and I are best friends first, and 'married' second. We will have fun however we choose because we trust each other implicitly.

Good topic guyz, keep them cumming!

JustMrJ

[driveajeepnaked]

None of "my" friends know about our lifestyle choices, but a few of Mr Jeep's male friends do know ( and are envious of his "fortune" in having wife that "gets it"). One very young couple seemed interested and open minded enough to ask us about our Hedo trip last fall. We invited them over to see our vacation pics and a hot tub visit. We had to find our bathing suits for their visit!! Next time they came over a few weeks later, they had booked their Hedo trip, and stripped down to "practice" for Hedo in our hot-tub!!
Even though they are not into swinging, they respect our choices, and enjoy the nekkid freedom they get in their visits to our house. They are true exhibitionists, and we are happy to entertain them...