My first swinging experiences...

[BorisNatasha]

Well Spoo I wasn't suggesting that men go out and start screwing each other solely for the benefit of their women. What bothers me is that guys who want to do this basically can't without fear of reprisal, exclusion, or outright hatred. People seem to think because THEY won't do it then nobody else should either, and definitely not in the same club THEY are in! The reason it bothers me so much is that some people have to sacrifice what makes them happy to keep these bigots happy. Platinum24 is a good example of such a person who is being told he can't do what he wants even though he isn't hurting anyone. I can sympathize. It must the libertarian in me.

Chicup, I'm not fighting any personal demons in regards to this specific issue. I'm just intolerant of intolerance. There's no bigger turnoff in the world than seeing people act ignorant and ugly right in front of you. That was a nice deflection though.

Boris

[Vespertine]

Originally Posted by WildMiCouple

How would you like to find out the single male that you went to a playroom with was gay......after he had enjoyed Mrs Spoo? Just a thought

Brett

If a gay man enjoyed a woman in a playroom- wouldn't he then be considered somewhat bisexual? I think he would be misrepresenting himself if he labeled himself gay.

Hell, if a woman could get a 100% gay man to go down on her- waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to go, for her! Most gay men, I know, loathe pussy. She's gotta be something special.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

What bothers me is that guys who want to do this basically can't without fear of reprisal, exclusion, or outright hatred.

Honestly - this thread has just gone to two pages... With only one person saying anything remotely close to "outright hatred". I gotta say - we ARE proving to be a fairly tolerant bunch...

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

I'm just intolerant of intolerance.

It is this sort of double standard that has always made me see the "man behind the curtain". The "tolerance crowd" is always just as intolerant themselves...

A person has just as much right to be turned off by homosexual acts as another person has the right to be turned on. The problem is, neither side is very willing to "live and let live." Trust me - as a straight guy I read more crap about how everyone is a "little bit bi" that I realize those people are just as narrow minded as they say I am... Actually, probably more so. At least I allow others the freedom to define and identify their own sexual interests

I was at work yesterday talking to a friend and the conversation drifted towards religion. Well there has been a big "diversity and inclusion" push at my office for about two years. So - having just sat through "another" seminar about "tolerance" I looked at her and said, "you know - we should talk about religion. It isn't inclusive. Let's talk about being gay!"

It's just amazing to me how intolerant the whole "tolerance" issue really is

Spoomonkey

[good times]

This thread has brought up a couple of things that I have always found to be interesting assumptions that I don't think are true in the real world.

The first one is that swingers are more open minded folks than the rest of society. I don't think this is true at all. It is true that we engage in an activity that others in society may not approve of, but that, by itself doesn't make us more open minded. It just means we have different interests.

In this case I think people have about the same reaction to a gay man at a swing club as the gays would have if a swinging couple showed up at a gay club looking for an MFM partner.

This is actually kind of a funny example for us as we have a local gay club that hosts a once a month swingers party. I haven't been to one of these parties but I understand that the swingers and gays stay in seperate parts of the bar and don't interact. I have thought about going just to find out what the gay people thought about these swingers. I have a suspicion it would be a lot the same as what we think of gays in our swing clubs.

At the clubs we go to Male/Male contact is strictly discouraged, does it happen, probably, but if anyone complains about it the persons engaged in it would be asked to leave.

As far as I'm concerned they should go to a gay club for that. I might piss some off by saying it, but I would prefer no Female/female only activity at the clubs either, but their sure is a lot of that (not bi activity, but women that come to the swing clubs just to hook up with other women).

My point is that if, for example, you went to a sports bar and started having sex on the table you would be tossed out in short order. So why is it any different at a swing club? I don't think it is narrow minded at all to expect that the activities at the club are limited to the intended purpose of the club. I don't have anything against anyone who wants to participate in the gay lifestyle, but at the same time I don't think it is narrow minded of me not to want to see it, I am sure a gay guy would find it equally disgusting if he had to watch me have sex with my wife at a gay club.

[BorisNatasha]

Originally Posted by good times

The first one is that swingers are more open minded folks than the rest of society. I don't think this is true at all.

This thread has done a lot to convince me that you're correct. My mistake was assuming the opposite was true.

Spoo - I'm curious... are you saying intolerance should be accepted?

On another note you're right, this thread is only 2 pages long and I guess I am bringing things to the discussion based on a lot of other posts I've read on this board but hadn't commented on till now. There are plenty of posts on this board, usually by women, bemoaning the fact that female bisexuality is embraced and celebrated while male bisexuality is not tolerated. Nobody is joining in to this thread to voice that opinion now, perhaps because the poster identified himself as gay. I have to agree with Vespertine... if he enjoys playing with women, perhaps he's not quite as far on that side of the Kinsey scale as he thought.

I understand this issue is just like racism. I'm not going to convince anybody to suddenly 'see the light' anymore than they are going to convince me I'm wrong about how I feel. My generation will hopefully be the last that thinks like this though. As the old school dies out, the new school of thought takes over. I hope that's what happens anyway.

I also realize that defending gay people is unpopular, as much on this board as anywhere else, so I think we can leave it at that and I'll be finished with this line of discussion.

Boris

[imsnowman]

Originally Posted by good times

This thread has brought up a couple of things that I have always found to be interesting assumptions that I don't think are true in the real world.

The first one is that swingers are more open minded folks than the rest of society. I don't think this is true at all. It is true that we engage in an activity that others in society may not approve of, but that, by itself doesn't make us more open minded. It just means we have different interests.

Actually, these folks found that swingers are more tolerant.
Swing Study

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

I understand this issue is just like racism. I'm not going to convince anybody to suddenly 'see the light' anymore than they are going to convince me I'm wrong about how I feel. My generation will hopefully be the last that thinks like this though. As the old school dies out, the new school of thought takes over. I hope that's what happens anyway.

I also realize that defending gay people is unpopular, as much on this board as anywhere else, so I think we can leave it at that and I'll be finished with this line of discussion.

Boris

When it comes to sex, to each there own, and that includes their turn offs. A swing club is not some microcosm of society where we all need to be accepting of each others personal preference. If a lot of people find MM activity to be a turn off, why should anyone care if its not allowed at some clubs? Apparently the OP found a club where that was accepted and good for him, no one is saying he shouldn't do it there. We are saying he should state his preferences before he hits the play room with a couple, the same way we would want any other couple/single to let us know what they were into before we go upstairs.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

Spoo - I'm curious... are you saying intolerance should be accepted?

I don't know... Seems you want your brand to be accepted... Personally, I think the trap of "tolerance" is that it fails to tolerate. It simply seeks to shift the lines of acceptance.

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

I'm not going to convince anybody to suddenly 'see the light' anymore than they are going to convince me I'm wrong about how I feel. My generation will hopefully be the last that thinks like this though. As the old school dies out, the new school of thought takes over. I hope that's what happens anyway.

Boris - I have a question...

What would this look like? If the next generation does not "think like this" (which I am not entirely sure you've even defined what "thinking like this" really is) what will it think like? I am very curious about where you are coming from.

So far - folks have said "if it works for you, do it." I can think of no more tolerant sentiment. How much more tolerant a people supposed to be?

You state that defending gays is unpopular... Who are you defending gays from? I think the guy who posted the "stick to your own kind" post pretty much got the point. His "error" was made clear by a few posters on this thread - not just you. So - it seems to me that defending this guys right to play as long as he does so within the rules of the club and the boundaries of the couples he plays with, is actually quite popular.

It seems you have a rather unfocused beef about something that has been bugging you for a long time. My guess is you are doing a bit of shadow boxing, though, because I don't see much evidence of the "old school" you're referring to.

Spoomonkey

[good times]

Originally Posted by imsnowman

Actually, these folks found that swingers are more tolerant.
Swing Study

True, but I question how accurate a study is that was mostly based on a volontarily taken questionair on the internet.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by good times

True, but I question how accurate a study is that was mostly based on a volontarily taken questionair on the internet.

Dude - if it is a "stat" it is true...

Statistically speaking all statistics are statistically accurate... About 87.4% of the time...

Spoomonkey (making up statistics since 1973)

[txduo2000]

I will jump in here and admit that I am one of those "women bemoaning ...." that Boris was referring to, with regard to double standards. I HATE them!!!

As I have stated MANY times on this board, I am NOT bisexual, not in the least bit interested in F-F play. BUT, I do not begrudge those who are, as long as they do not try to "convert" me. lol

Similarly, I do not begrudge men who are bi or bi-curious, though I have no real curiosity about watching bi-male activity. To each their own. Whatever turns someone on is fine.

And I do agree with all who have stated that the only "HATER" to the OP was promptly shut down. I didn't see any subsequent posts by him/her, so apparently he/she got the message.

I think we, as swingers, are more tolerant of many things, but tolerance is subjective to each individual's preferences in many cases.