Frustrated with finding other couples

[lovemonkey#1]

hi guys,

i apologize for the length of this post and i promise that at the end, there is a question but first, a little background:

my wife and i have been swinging off and on now for about 2.5 or 3 years. In that time, we've only managed to find three couples that we actually got to play with (all of them through Swing Lifestyle). all of our experiences have been pretty good for the most part but we've found ourselves in the middle of a year-long drought.

our relationship with the first couple was almost 100% sexual. we found that we didn't really have all that in common and we just didn't click in the way we had hoped. while we managed to have some decent sessions with them, we kind of drifted apart in a quiet, mutual fashion. they were our first couple so we chalked it up to experience and moved on.

the second couple we met was awesome. we really enjoyed them, became pretty close and did our most exploring with them. we spent several months hanging out and just getting to know each other before we finally decided to play. because we became friends with them and liked hanging out with them, it made our playdates so much more relaxed and enjoyable. we played with them exclusively for over a year and then gradually we started noticing that the female half didn't seem that into it anymore. they ended up moving away shortly after that and we haven't played with them since. we went to visit them once with full expectations of playing but it never happened and we came to the conclusion that this era had simply come to an end. we barely hear from them anymore but we've all expressed interest in remaining friends.

the third and last couple started off very similarly to the second in that we spent a lot of time getting to know them and going out on dates together before we actually got down to business. we had one session with them that went ok, but not great. we hung out with them once after that about a week later and then they just kind of fell off the planet. we'd write them every once in a while and then we'd go weeks, sometimes months, at a time without hearing back from them. when they did write, they'd say something like they were really busy and sorry for not writing sooner. we certainly understand that things can get hectic and tried not to take it too personally. we'd write back and suggest getting together but when we'd make plans they'd flake out at the last minute. finally, after a particular long silence from them, my wife wrote them and asked point blank if they were still interested in swinging with us. they wrote back and said that they had been wanting to talk to us about it but didn't know how and then went on to say that they felt like they needed to work some stuff out between them and really needed to take a break. so, that's that.

we're now "single" and wanting to get back into the game but are a little reluctant about how to go about it. from our experience we've learned that we only feel comfortable taking on one or two couples at a given time and that we prefer for our relationships with potential partners to extend beyond the bedroom. we're not looking to become best friends with anyone but we do want to LIKE them. we find that it's much easier to communicate wants/needs in that situation not to mention much sexier.

now, we're finally getting down to the question(s) . are we setting our sights too high? we want to meet people that we can be friends with but we're both pretty sensitive and it seems to hurt our egos when we invest time into people just to have them suddenly drop off the planet. we thought about meeting people for "just sex" but found our main problem with that first couple we meet was it felt too cold and clinical. i know that everyone's experiences are different but i'm wondering how other couples on this board are choosing to relate with their swing partners. what are you looking for and have you found it? if so, how? advice?

thanks!

[playinginmacon]

Originally Posted by lovemonkey#1

are we setting our sights too high? we want to meet people that we can be friends with but we're both pretty sensitive and it seems to hurt our egos when we invest time into people just to have them suddenly drop off the planet. we thought about meeting people for "just sex" but found our main problem with that first couple we meet was it felt too cold and clinical. i know that everyone's experiences are different but i'm wondering how other couples on this board are choosing to relate with their swing partners. what are you looking for and have you found it? if so, how? advice?

I don't think you're setting sights too high. I think it's reasonable to want to be friends and lovers, but it's hard to find couples where that works out consistently. We've had a similar experience with couples. Every couple we meet (so far 3) helps us define what we're looking for in some way. Someone on another post put it this way: It took us a lot of trial and error before we found our ideal partner, it stands to reason that it would be the same when seeking a couple to play with.

And just as an aside, I hate it when people drop off the planet or give lame excuses, rather than just come out and say "hey, we're not interested right now." I'd rather just hear it like it is, than get my hopes up that somebody's telling me the truth and something's going to come of this when it's not.

[des1re06]

what are you looking for and have you found it? if so, how? advice?

Our desires have changed so much since we first started this adventure. We look at it as fantasy fulfillment and great sex, versus friendships. We have made some great friends, but they are not necessarily bedmates.

It has been much easier to make friends than find another couple where all are attracted. On the flip side, the FF connection has been much easier to find.

We're not in search mode, just letting things happen as they will. Takes alot of pressure off that way. We haven't used the search function at Swing Lifestyle in months. We just accept party invitations, host parties, go to clubs, and put ourselves in the environment to meet the right couples or singles every other weekend.

Have fun!

Mrs. D

[lovemonkey#1]

Originally Posted by playinginmacon

And just as an aside, I hate it when people drop off the planet or give lame excuses, rather than just come out and say "hey, we're not interested right now." I'd rather just hear it like it is, than get my hopes up that somebody's telling me the truth and something's going to come of this when it's not.

this is what bothers me the most. my wife and i both think it's extremely important to keep communication open and it frustrates us to no end when people just ***DISAPPEAR***. they say they're into us and that they're interested in playing but then out of the blue they just stop answering phone calls and emails. i don't get it and i think it's beyond rude. head bang. we're not needy pushy psychos or something so it's starting to give me a complex...

[sunrise_sunset]

we also are frustrated with the online version of swinging. Trying to arrange a meet on the internet is so time consuming, compared to just going to an on prem for 4-5 hours every 4-6 weeks. We have had much much more luck swinging at the clubs.

The pay sites exagerate the odds of you meeting someone from their site. With all of the photoshopped and stolen pics on profiles and difficulty determining if there is indeed a willing wife, the search on the pay sites becomes a huge guessing game/wild goose chase.

[Pepper & Drew]

Go to a social, meet-n-greet, or club. We were afraid of the idea of going at first, but that's the fastest way that we've gotten to meet a large number of people. You can see people in person, strike up a conversation, see if the chemestry is right and make plans to meet later. It's a lot less stressful and time consuming than the online route. We now have a great group of friends that we've met through people we've met at socials. You get to know people, they invite you to other events and presto: you've met 3 times more people than you would have just sitting online.

Pepper

[ShellyM]

Couples/couples play is SO HARD. You have NO idea. You have to realize that dating is hard enough, MUCH LESS having 4 people vs. 2 who have to be attracted!! It takes a certain amount of compromise in truth. Do we all want to find couples that pass the bar test (meaning a person good looking to where we would pick them up in a bar)??? Of COURSE! But swinging is about real people. Its very hard in truth. We have 2 couples that we play with pretty frequently, and it took us a year of looking in order to find them. Anyways, fun is in the searching though!!
Shelly

[bethncole]

Been there! Done that! But we definately still think that "online swinging" is better than meeting a couple at a club and having sex right away. So, here are the things that you have to keep in mind:

1. People have ups and downs in their chemistry within a couple. Sometimes couples find themselves shifting their priority to family or to their own relationship. So, it's rarely YOU who somehow turned them off.

2. People don't know how to say NO. So, the best next thing for them is to just "disappear". I hate that myself, but you just have to accept it.

3. It is 6 times as hard to maintain a couple-to-couple relationship than a fuck buddy-to-fuck buddy. All 4 people have to have some sort of a good bond/relationship going from one to another. And that's rarely possible for more than a few weeks.

4. You may spend a little less time "dating". I'm not saying jump on the first cock ( or into the first pussy ) you see. But understand that if you have sexual chemistry between another couple - it shoudl be apparent within a couple of meets and there is no reason to wait to go further.

Hope this helps!

[Menage_a_Trois]

Do I think your expectations are too high? Well that is a tough question, but in the end, only you can decide that. Please keep in mind I am not saying you are right or wrong, I am merely going to point out a few things about the lifestyle, only you can decide what works for you. I think you need to break it down so that you can fully understand what is going on. First off swinging is about having SEX with someone other than your SO (significant other). Whether you do that together, separately, in the same room or separate rooms, at a club, house party, hotel, private home, in the end it is all about having sex with other people. It is NOT about dating other people. It is not any easier to make friends in the lifestyle than it is in the vanilla world. I personally think that too much emphasis is put on being “friends first”. Most of us had that thought when we first got into swinging; it was a way to justify having sex with them, which made us feel that it was ok as long as there was something more to it than just sex. The reality is that it is just about sex. Most find that there is less frustration and drama when you get to that point. Most people have a limited amount of time to devote to friends and even less to the lifestyle. In addition, most are very guarded about keeping the lifestyle and their regular lives separate. Therefore, given that, you will find that many people are not perusing true friendship within the lifestyle. The friendships that have developed have done so over time, just like in the vanilla world. You will also find that many people do not want to take the time to let friendship develop first before any playing happens. After all swinging is about having SEX. Most are involved with the lifestyle because they want to have SEX, they are reluctant to take all the time and energy it takes to being “friends first” with the possibility that there is no “pay off” (sex) at the other end. This may sound cruel and rude, but it the reality of the situation. Don’t get me wrong, the lifestyle is what YOU make it, and if you need to have your play partners be “friends” or something more significant that just casual sex, then you need to keep in mind that you are going to experience more frustration and that how you view the lifestyle in different than how most do. Moreover, because of that you will have a harder time finding couples that meet your “requirements”. We recently had a few lifestyle friends over to our house and we all got to talking about the lifestyle, we started talking about how our views have changed over time and the things we all wish we had known when we first started. Of course, the idea of being friends first or only playing with people that were more than just “sex” came up. A friend made a comment that we all laughed at first, but then all seriously agreed that he was right. He said, “In reality, you don’t have to know the other person or even really like them. You just need to be able to get along with them for about an hour or so, hell you don’t really need to know their last name”. I know to some that will sound terrible, but to those who have been around the lifestyle for a while you will understand. You will find that MOST people you meet and play with will only be a one time thing and that you or they are NOT interested in perusing things past that. If I had to put a percentage on it, I would say 80-90 percent of the people you will meet and play with are just a one-time thing. The reality is that you meet a couple, you take time to get acquainted, they seem like the type of people you could be friends with everyone decides to go play and then afterwards you go your separate ways, you or they decide that there is no need to go there again. That DOES NOT mean that anything was wrong, in fact, it just might have been a good experience, everyone seemed to have a good time, no problems or drama, but afterwards for whatever reason nothing comes of it. We have found that when you do develop a good friendship with a couple both in and out of the lifestyle you start having sex with them less and less as your friendship grows. We have made a few great friends in the lifestyle in fact some of them we consider them to be family. We see each other all the time even go to the same lifestyle functions together, but rarely play with each other. For some reason that is how close friendships seem to go when it comes to the lifestyle, I am sure there are exceptions to this, but I am speaking from what I have observed, since getting into the lifestyle over 10 years ago. If you and your SO only feel comfortable with playing (having sex) with people who are friends, then you need to keep in mind that MOST people you encounter are NOT going to be on the same page with you. I hope that that will keep you from being so frustrated. You will need to be more patient and not let the situation frustrate you, since your ideal couple is going to be harder to find. Just remember that this is about having fun, try not to take things too seriously. As far as the situation you describe with the couple you met, got to know, went on a few dates to get better acquainted, played and then shortly afterwards they disappeared. We have all had that experience, it just goes with the territory, does not make it any easier, but it does happen from time to time. It is harder to take when you are looking to make friends from the start with a couple.

T – Mr. Ménage

[TheDeal]

I agree, however I would like to add; the Internet has allowed the lifestyle to become more available or noticeable to many more people than before. The information on what "it" is and what "it" is not is easy to find. And with all the sites and forums like this, you can learn and read a great many minds. My point is; the lifestyle being just about sex or even about sex FIRST and foremost, is changing like it or not. There are those of us that would have never even considered swinging and still won't unless we can bring our vanilla BS with us. Some of us just grew up not being that open with strangers and don't really want to start now. Heck, we would never have even dreamed the lifestyle existed outside of some 70s movies if it were not for the Internet. So, here we are the non-conformist-friends-first-swingers. We may be few, but we are growing in numbers. It is no threat to anyone else, because this is big enough for all, right?

G

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by TheDeal

I agree, however I would like to add; the Internet has allowed the lifestyle to become more available or noticeable to many more people than before. The information on what "it" is and what "it" is not is easy to find. And with all the sites and forums like this, you can learn and read a great many minds. My point is; the lifestyle being just about sex or even about sex FIRST and foremost, is changing like it or not. There are those of us that would have never even considered swinging and still won't unless we can bring our vanilla BS with us. Some of us just grew up not being that open with strangers and don't really want to start now. Heck, we would never have even dreamed the lifestyle existed outside of some 70s movies if it were not for the Internet. So, here we are the non-conformist-friends-first-swingers. We may be few, but we are growing in numbers. It is no threat to anyone else, because this is big enough for all, right?

G

But one problem here as far as I can tell from your limited postings.

You aren't a swinger yet, you haven't done the one thing that makes a swinger a swinger, and thats exchanged partners.

You are telling people 'how it is' when you, quite frankly, have no idea what you are talking about. You are posting a 'how you want it to be', and we've been there, and it only RARELY works.

Yes you are correct that the internet has introduced swinging to a generation of people who might not have every looked into swinging without it. That being said this doesn't change the dynamics of swinging, only the ease of contact.

Our area is FULL of friends first couples, we have met several of them, and either they are taking BABY baby steps into becoming 'real' swingers or they are just sort of looking in. In no case have we known them to actually swing.

The problem, and I've posted this before, has nothing to do with swinging but really to do with friendship. Its pretty much impossible to 'become' true friends when the underlying motivation is sexual. You can't make someone your friend, you have to have interests, personalties, etc that all work together, and when thats topped with the desire to nail each others wives, its pretty much doomed to failure.

Do you just find random people and say 'hey lets be friends?' No. But you think that you can find what is basically a random couple, and say 'hey lets be friends and after we can fuck!' It would be great if it worked that way but it doesn't.

So I hate to tell you this but swinging IS about sex first and foremost because thats what works. Any friendships that develop will mostly develop AFTER the sex, not before, and even then not because of swinging but because you have something else in common.

The reason you will find some hostility twords this, is, quite frankly, we hate having our time 'wasted'. Maybe swinging is a baby step adventure to you, where you will think and analyze and decide if 'they are the ones', but we have only so much free time for this sort of thing and not all swinger-sorta-kinda-wannabes let you know ahead of time. Over the years we have learned the 'warning signs' from such couples and now avoid them, but its only after many 'wasted' meetings.

Now all this being said I think most couples start with this mythical ideal as what they are looking for. The question is how long before you snap out of it. If after you meet a couple you like and are sexually attracted to but you are not 'ready' to pay after a couple of meetings, odds are you are just not ready for swinging period and no amount of family BBQ's together will change that.

[TheDeal]

Actually, I tentatively agree with what you are saying. I say that because as you have pointed out, we have not yet fully swapped. We have played; I guess you would call it "softswap", but I don't draw the official "you've swung" line there.


Of course the reason we have not fully swapped as of yet is the subject of this thread. You may well be totally right regarding your assessment of friendship vs sex. However, I know and have read many folks that have created what you are saying does not work or can't happen. I do think that it's rare for 4 people to become friends and then keep that through sex.

I think people that have been in the lifestyle a year or more before, let's say 2000 would possibly be in complete agreement with your view. People that would normally NOT be predisposed to seeking out the lifestyle; can now just happen upon it through google or whatever. Some of these people may explore and gain access into what is still a sorta secret society here. This will change and impact the community in whole.

I believe these people that would otherwise play it safe, may like the idea of fantasy fulfillment. I for one, have only slept, er uh had complete intercourse with a handful of girls. I love sex and am not offended by much of anything, however my desire for swinging sex is more for the quality moments with a few verses the quantity of the many. I have no problem whatsoever with any ones desire in the LS. I am not judging nor do I want to be judged.

I am just saying that anytime you have an influx of new people into any organization, you will have change.

Now is your opinion the reality of things, no matter who gets into the LS? It just might be. Of course I hope not, but I really do respect every ones desire and beliefs. I also, hope we find a few people that can have a more intimate relationship with. Just enough for everyone to trust and let go....and have fun!

OH, I totally agree about wasting others time. I wish there were a sign or flag for those of us that were new or just friends first. I don't want to waste any ones time. All the sites have flags for Bi, age, etc... There really should be one for the others.

[good times]

I agree with Mr. Menage and Chicup, and I don't know if the OP is setting their sights to high or not either, but I get the feeling their expectations are a bit high.

In the 5+ years we have been swinging we have met many people in the lifestyle, we have also played with more than I can count, yet we have made very few friends. The interesting thing to me is that many of the folks we thought were friends, with only a few exceptions, disappeared from our lives when we decided we didn't want to play with them any more. This just underlines the fact that just because two couples are compatible for sex doesn't mean that they can be life long friends without the sex. In fact, the opposite has been our experience, most of the play partners we have had we don't have enough in common with to be vanilla friends outside of the lifestyle. Additionally, most of the people we have met through the lifestyle who have went on to become good friends, we rarely, if ever, have sex with.

The problem with the "friends first" theory of swinging is, most swingers are not willing to wait around long enough to see if you can be their friend. So not only do you have to find others that are "friends first", a minority of those who actually play with other couples, but you have to be real lucky and hit one that also has enough in common with you to be friends. From my experience, that makes the single bi-female (unicorn), an easy find by comparison.

My guess, is that the OP is experiencing what we have seen happen to others we know that want to be friends with their play partners. The people they meet will honestly say that they are willing to be friends, as most of us are if it turns out in the long run that we really do connect on some level outside the bedroom. They are really just meeting you to see if you would be compatible in bed though. When the new play partner glow wears off, more often than not, they will fade out of your life in pursuit of the next play partner. That is the way it is, because even though everyone is willing to make new friends, it is just as difficult in swinging as it is in real life and their just aren't that many people you meet that will become your life long buddies.

Most couples in the lifestyle already have a lifelong friend and sex partner as a spouse. And while some might think they are a magician in the sack, I have yet to have a sex partner that was better than my wife. We and most swingers we know do it for the recreational sex and the variety, after a few play sessions with a new partner it is usually time to move on. We aren't looking for life long play partners, we already have one, nor do we know any "experienced" swingers who are.

And while it is true that, at least at the clubs we go to and through the online ads, that more newbies all the time are looking for the "friends first' scenario in swinging. The people who are actually playing at the clubs or on the ad sites are still "sex first", and I don't see that changing significantly in the near future.

[Menage_a_Trois]

Chipup and Goodtimes make very valid and real points about what REALLY goes on in the lifestyle. It is amazing to me how many people who have had very limited or NO actual experience like to give advise or expound on what the lifestyle is or isn't, and how things work or should work. I am not saying that swinging is the same for everyone, nor am I saying that everyone should do or be searching for the same thing. However, what most do NOT understand is the fact that no matter how much reading, studying, researching, discussing, thinking, praying, or consulting a crystal ball you do it will not tell you if swinging is for you and how you will react, and in reality it will also NOT give you a road map for what REALLY happens in swinging. Almost all of us came into the lifestyle with what we thought it was and just how we wanted it to be. The fact of the matter is we did not have a clue. It is amazing how your view on the lifestyle changes after you have had several ACTUAL play experiences. Most start with a very idealist approach to the lifestyle, fueled by fantasies, movies, TV and our own ability to think we will make it more than it really is. Most started off with long list of rules, because of insecurities and trust. As theses couples gained experience, they realized that most if not all theses rules were silly or unnecessary, and those fell by the wayside. Over time, you realize that your views on the lifestyle have changed, and that your initial ideas about it were incorrect. Does it mean that you are wrong for coming into it with certain expectations or ideals? Not at all, we all had them. However, just like MOST things in life reality is nothing like what we want it to be. So why would anyone think swinging would be different? Is it because SEX is involved? Please DO NOT take this to mean that I have a dim view of the lifestyle, in fact the opposite is true. I think the lifestyle is wonderful, in fact it got MUCH better once we got past our idealist attitudes about it, then we could relax and have fun with it. In addition, guess what, the frustration and drama levels went WAY down.

I think the comment The Deal made about all the new people in the lifestyle since 2000 and how they are going to change the lifestyle was very interesting. The Deal suggest, that the internet has made swinging more accessible to more people. Moreover, it certainly has made it easier for people to find out about it and in effect, it has brought more people into the lifestyle. Along with the increase of new people who really are interested in becoming part of the lifestyle, it has brought in several people who are NOT swingers or lifestyle people. People who want to hang out with swingers, who like the idea of going to swing clubs and parties, but have NO intention of ever ACTUALLY participating. They say they like the freedom, the taboo, the naughtiness, or the energy of being around swingers, they want to just hang out and watch, and it is exciting for them. I am sorry but we are not animals in a zoo for them to watch. We are also not entertainers for you to see a live sex show. I cannot tell you the number of couples we have met in the last few years who say they are lifestyle people but that they are just voyeurs! Sorry but they are NOT swingers. Yes Deal, you are right the lifestyle has started to change, but NOT in a positive way. It kills me the number of people that attend clubs and parties that are just there to look and watch people have sex. In addition, most get quite offended when you approach them about joining in, usually with a shocked look on their face like how dare you ask me that.

I/we have been around the lifestyle for over 10 years and very active in it for most of that time. What I have noticed about the lifestyle is that there is by far less drama from true swingers who truly “get” the lifestyle, than from those who only think they know what is going on.

T – Mr. Ménage

[lovemonkey#1]

wow, i have to say that i'm somewhat surprised at the direction that this thread has taken. while i'm trying to understand and appreciate everyone's point of view, i'm also a bit taken aback by some of the comments that i'm seeing. honestly, some of these comments have made me pretty angry.

first of all, it seems that the subject of "friends" in the "lifestyle" is a hot button issue that i wasn't aware of. i simply stated that we were looking for people that we could have a deeper connection than "just sex" because we tried the just sex route and DID NOT LIKE IT. we found a couple that we hung out with off and on for a few months before we actually got to the sex and we enjoyed it immensely... for over a year. because we all enjoyed hanging out together and liked each other outside of the bedroom, we felt more comfortable, we trusted them and it made the experience all the better. we drifted apart from that couple over time and while it sucked, we accepted it and tried to find a similar situation.

nowhere did i state in my original post that we were looking for best friends or lifelong swing partners. we know that swinging is about SEX with other people so we don't need to be reminded of that. we're not newbies and we're not trying to make friends with people just so we can justify the sex. so please tell me, where in the "lifestyle" handbook does it say that you're not allowed to find people that you're comfortable with? we don't want to go to clubs or meet and greets because that is not our speed. we prefer to meet people in a lower stress environment and get to know them a little better on a more personal level. again, not as bestest friends in the whole wide world, but just something more than "whacha doing tonight? wanna fuck?" why is that unacceptable? btw, i'm not judging anyone who goes to clubs or can have sex with someone moments after meeting them, it's just not for us.

it's discussions like this that make me hate labeling myself as a swinger. quite frankly, i don't like people telling me that other people aren't truly "swingers" because they don't fit criteria X, Y and Z. what's that all about? if there's so much talk of openness, tolerance, and honesty on this board why are people so quick to tell other people what they are or are not? the bottom line is my wife and i are sexual beings who want to experiment with other couples. call us what you will but if having sex in the same room as another couple or having a soft swap doesn't make us swingers then fuck it. i don't want to be one. i don't think i need to tell you were you can put your labels...

forgive me for my anger but this is just plain silly. if swinging's just about biological FUCKING then what's the point of putting up a profile? why give your interests and put up your personal information if it doesn't count for anything? we have found people that we liked before so we know it's not impossible. personally, i'm not attracted to just looks. i find that 70% of my attraction to a woman is her personality. i find it hard to believe that i'd be in the minority on that one. perhaps we all just have different definitions of "friends?"

i can understand that some of the more experienced people on the board are tired of being jerked around but not everyone is wired to just jump into bed with other people without at least getting to know them a little bit first. for some, it's a scary prospect. if it bothers you, then simply don't play with them. most newbies state that they're newbies on their profiles so don't go near them and stick to the people who post nothing but hard-on and pussy pics on their profile. those people are the "real deal", right?

i'm just surprised at the narrowmindedness of some of these posts. i came here looking for help and i feel like i've been judged or lumped into other people's bad experiences. for those of you who actually read my post and responded to it respectfully, thank you. your opinions and thoughts are much appreciated.