Has Swinging Evolved?

[JustAskJulie]

This topic springs out of something that came up in another topic, mostly from a comment by StrateCouple that they feel that swinging has evolved since they entered the lifestyle.

Most of the people we've met are in a dead run from bed to bed. They don't give a damn about anything except getting laid and getting off. It's all CONQUEST to them, nothing more. Another notch in their belt, a feather in their cap, something to tell everyone in the locker room. It's a systematic thing for many. They try to come on nice and agreeable but grow cold and bitter once they've gotten what they want.

Yes, it's evolved. Anyone who will say it hasn't is a liar or else is delusioned. When you start that thread let us know, we'll be interested in everyone else's takes on it.

We are of the old school of swing. We're plenty young enough to have fun but we're too old to change our ways or our values. Those trying to force us to change have soured us on it altogether. But for the 99 and 44/100ths percent of everyone else it should be just fine.

So what do you think? I realize many people on this board are new or fairly new to the lifestyle so they may not be able to judge whether or not the lifestyle has evolved, but what do you think of the comments regardless?

[CanadianCouple]

I'm not sure if evolved is the correct term (although it may well be), but I can confidently say Ron's right on the money with his complaints about finding suitable, HONEST people. So many talk the talk, but won't... well, you get the idea. How many times have you made contact with a couple over the internet, the four of you seem so compatable you're practically quadruplets, and then poof, they vanish without a trace or explaination? How many other couples who you actually do get to meet person, and it's painfully obvious they mis-represented themselves over the net? How many try to exceed agreed upon boundries once you're all in bed?

I don't mean to discourage the newcomers out there reading this, there are many wonderful people within this lifestyle. But it can be a real chore separating the wheat from the chaffe, and a lot of work finding those special people.

Ron and Connie, if you read this, Janette and I certainly respect your decision to cease activities, at least for now, but do hope things work out for you at a later time. I KNOW you guys know how much fun this is, just as I know how frustrating it can be too.

Dan

[frisson]

Originally posted by JustAskJulie:
I realize many people on this board are new or fairly new to the lifestyle so they may not be able to judge whether or not the lifestyle has evolved, but what do you think of the comments regardless

We have been swinging for five plus years, and we have definitely noticed a change in that time, which is attributable to the growth of the Internet during that period.

Those who have entered the lifestyle within the past couple of years cannot appreciate how difficult it was pre-Internet to find swinging opportunities. There were swingers' clubs, but they were hard to find and much fewer than today. Beyond that, there were those scary contact magazines found in porn stores. No chat rooms, no adult personals sites. To be a swinger you really had to want to swing. It was not a casual pursuit at all. It felt more like a small secret society where everybody knew everybody else. We travelled to clubs in a three-state area and would often run into people who knew friends of ours 150-200 miles away.

I believe that there are literally ten times more people calling themselves swingers today than there were five years ago, and a far greater proportion of people in their twenties.

I think this has resulted in several effects, most of them not so good.

For one thing, swinging has become less friendly than it used to be. Lifestyle socials used to feel like backyard barbecues with bare tits. Now the "hustle factor" is much greater than it used to be. Maybe this is what Stratecouple is referring to.

We fall somewhat into the category of hit-and-run swingers, in that we often end up with different people from month to month (for reasons we have discussed in other posts) but it always used to be within a circle of people whom we saw from month to month, and with whom we always stayed friendly so long as we attended the same parties.

Now the faces seem to change so quickly, it's impossible to get to know people.

The other BIG difference is that there are many more people sort of dabbling in swinging. They really haven't made the commitment in their relationship to become swingers. It's more for the titillation, I think--so that on Monday morning they can go to their friends and say, "Oh yeah, we went to a swingers' party and boy are those people kinky <snicker snicker>."

We find this irritating for a lot of ways. We sometimes get the feeling that half the people we meet at a typical dance are there to stand off to the side and gawk at us as if we were monkeys in the zoo. The dance turns into a risque version of any other dance club. The huge problem that goes along with that is that because they aren't really swingers, they haven't absorbed our relaxed approach to displays of affection, etc. and they haven't really discussed limits or expectations. This leads to bad misunderstandings as one partner gets into the swing of things, so to speak, and the other doesn't like it. We've seen more incidents of jealousy, hard feelings, etc etc in the past six months than in the four and a half years preceding it. In most cases this has involved younger people who didn't seem to understand that they were attending an alternative lifestyle club.

Although it's great in theory to have all those good-looking twenty-somethings hanging around, we sort of miss the old days.

[JustAskJulie]

frisson,

Funny you mentioned the internet as a possible cause. I was just about to ask that before I read your post. If people felt that had anything to do with it.

It has definately contributed to more people knowing about and openly discussing the lifestyle. Unfortunately, it has also made it much easier for just anyone to put themselves out there.

Prior to the rise of the internet, the only ways to meet people were through clubs or print magazines. Both of which cost a bit and while people might be likely to buy a print magazine unless they were serious they were probably less likely to actually try to contact someone (too much trouble even in the cases where it was direct mail content) for someone who wasn't serious.

[frisson]

Great topic, too bad it hasn't gotten more of a response.

We were talking about it again last night and decided that swinging in the last couple of years has turned into a Hedonism (resort) concept--something really intended more for the occasional thrill-seekers and the dabblers rather than those who have made a commitment to change their marriages.

Even the Lifestyles convention is being marketed that way. From their Web site: "And, while many swingers attend, most of the couples do not share partners."

That just about says it all.

Prior to the rise of the internet, the only ways to meet people were through clubs or print magazines. Both of which cost a bit and while people might be likely to buy a print magazine unless they were serious they were probably less likely to actually try to contact someone (too much trouble even in the cases where it was direct mail content) for someone who wasn't serious.

Yes, and those print mags were not much. The ones we saw when we started this in 1997 had maybe 150 ads from a three-state area. Today through the Net I could easily contact several hundred people within a 20-minute drive.

Clubs were not easy to find. You couldn't just look up "swinger's clubs" in the Yellow Pages. Very few clubs were on line, and there were 2-3 lists of clubs on the Net, with mostly out-of-date info.

It really took us six months before we finally hooked up with a club. (We never did try the magazines). In retrospect, waiting that long was a good thing. It gave us a chance to talk things over really well and to know what we wanted. Had we jumped into it when we first wanted to jump into it, we would not have been so well prepared.

[Quin]

IMHO, the *social-ness* of swinging has went to the wayside. Ten years ago even fifteen, I can remember going to parties or even the club and there being a LOT of socializing going on before anything happened. I have noticed a huge decline in that within the past 5-7 years. It's like, go in..sit down..what's your name..fine..let's go to a room..kind of thing. The flirting has decreased, the seducting has decreased, the socializing aspect of swinging has taken a nose dive. There seems to be no social foreplay or very little of it.

Blame it on the internet, yeah some of it but not all of it. The people entering swinging have to take some responsibility and even us *old timers* who have sit by silently and watched the decline. I do think the internet and the accessibility of information has brought many people to swinging that would not be there otherwise. Just as I believe that the internet and email has destroyed the English language and the art of writing letters, I believe that the internet and the people coming into swinging as a result of it have taken it's toll on the art of the seduction and flirting...which, IMHO, was half the fun of swinging. There's something to be said about building sexual tension between two, three or four or more people. Now, all that's required is being mildly attracted to someone and *BAMM* you've had them.

VOTE FOR JULIE!! <img border="0" alt="[Blowjob]" title="" src="graemlins/bj.gif" />

Quin
<img border="0" alt="[Smiley_sex]" title="" src="graemlins/smilysex.gif" />

[Brian and Jo]

As swingers for 25 years we have noticed a number of changes several of which have been discussed above. In particular we could not agree more with the comments about the decline in the social/friendly side of swinging. When we visit our swing club the atmosphere is just how soon can I find someone to fuck, quite different from the flirting and "courtship" which used to prevail. This is one of the reasons we now do most of our swinging with our regular group of eight couples.

There are two other ways in which we find swinging has evolved over the years. One is the emphasis on safe sex which has developed over the last decade and rightly so. When we started swinging condoms were rarely used. Now when we meet a new couple at the club or on vacation under no circumstances would we have unprotected sex with them.

The other change we have noticed is that bisexuality has become much more common at least among the couples we play with. When we first got into the lifestyle, swinging was really wife swapping by another name. You played with another couple and full swap was the name of the game. Soft swinging was not on the cards. More recently we have seen a trend towards different combinations of sexual partners, especially FF when two or more couples get together. In our regular group most of the women play together as couples or in FMF threesomes. Also during MFMs there is sometimes contact between the two men. It took some time before Jo and I branched out and added bisexual contacts to our list of sexual experiences but we have both found that these contacts have enriched the enjoyment we derive from the sex life we share with our friends.

[Sex4Us2]

We are still pretty new to this lifestyle...been "trying" to do it for about a year and a half. I say trying because we haven't had many experiences and have had a very difficult time finding couples who do have some integrity and that want to establish a relationship rather than a quick one night stand. I thought it would be a great enhancement to our marriage but sometimes it can be more of a pain than anything . It is certainly frustrating for a couple who is looking to get started but can't find the right people. We are not Ken and Barbie and so are not looking for that, just some people who we can get to know and have some fun with if there is an attraction there. And it is true that you seem to get to know people and then they just disappear without a trace. I am not giving up on the lifestyle and the fun and friendship sure to be found here somewhere but it definitely isn't all that I thought it would be. <img border="0" alt="[Sad]" title="" src="graemlins/sad.gif" />
Laurie

[Chicup]

It took us 2 years to find a really awsome couple we swing with. Some that seemed good just disapeared, others had wifes that couldn't come to the phone etc.

If you are picky about what kind of people you swing with (not just looks) then you should expect it to take a while.

[JustAskJulie]

Even the Lifestyles convention is being marketed that way. From their Web site: "And, while many swingers attend, most of the couples do not share partners."

That just about says it all.

Unfortunately, it does

Clubs were not easy to find. You couldn't just look up "swinger's clubs" in the Yellow Pages.

It's funny that you mention that. When I was in Phoenix last year I was looking in the phone book for strip clubs and saw a couple of the better known swinger clubs listed in the Yellow pages. And this is a city where supposedly swinger clubs are illigal!

[Quin]

Originally posted by Sex4Us2:
<strong>We are still pretty new to this lifestyle...been "trying" to do it for about a year and a half. I say trying because we haven't had many experiences and have had a very difficult time finding couples who do have some integrity and that want to establish a relationship rather than a quick one night stand. I thought it would be a great enhancement to our marriage but sometimes it can be more of a pain than anything . It is certainly frustrating for a couple who is looking to get started but can't find the right people. We are not Ken and Barbie and so are not looking for that, just some people who we can get to know and have some fun with if there is an attraction there. And it is true that you seem to get to know people and then they just disappear without a trace. I am not giving up on the lifestyle and the fun and friendship sure to be found here somewhere but it definitely isn't all that I thought it would be.

I wouldn't give up either if I was you, Laurie. Just keep thinking that good things come to those who wait and you'll probably end up with a couple or two to play with that will not only be great playmates but also great friends!


Quin

[Flori_DAMAN]

I believe a book could be written on this excellent subject if one hasn't yet.

My observations are mixed. I see many great advances in the lifestyle recently due to the internet.

It has exposed many more people as has been mentioned that would never buy a swingers magazine at an adult bookstore. This has introduced a new breed of people into the lifestyle. Many of these people are curiosity seekers and I know they are not well recieved by many old-timers. However; lots of these people are great additions that fill the clubs with fun-loving erotic people that enjoy being on the fringe of society's sexual acceptance.

My perception is that the old-timers are more apt to just hop into the sack with a new person than newbies that quite often get close to the main event then change there mind. Of course it is usually with other old-timers. I btw guess I am an old-timer. I work with geriatrics daily and am 45 so I am called a kid all day and have a real hard time calling myself an old-timer.

I feel the problems mentioned are probably due to growth pains. The community is definitely expanding rapidly due to the internet,and with growth comes many undesirable factors.

These have a way of working themselves out though. My prediction is that the quality of swing clubs will increase as the new people demand better facilities.

The general public has a long way to go understanding that we are not in fact a bunch of hedonistic, self-indulgent, immoral creants.

The general public is full of cheaters though. Infedility is far more common than swinging but who cares, even if its the president huh.

The press will look for any sexual deviation and the public relies on the press for most of its opinions. Unfortunately until the community has enough exposure both positive and negative the public will remain in the dark.

When enough clubs get going and profits go up to the point that swinging is considered an industry then the busy lawmakers will have there hands full. The day will come when we will need spokespersons to rely on.

I find it very interesting that so many of us swingers are conservative yet the liberals will protect us. John

[Wendy & Mark]

We've been in the Lifestyle 22 of our 24 years of marriage, and while we've seen many of the same changes that others have mentioned, we have also seen a continuation of the more social aspects of swinging here in the great Northwest.

We run a Yahoo Club called Portland Real Swingers. We started it primarily because of some of the same issues already mentioned in previous posts. It was our way of creating an alternative place for people to meet online and to get to know one another. About 2 years ago, we started having quarterly socials for the couples in the club to get together and to meet in a social atmosphere. And we chose public venues in which to do this.

These socials have been quite rewarding. The couples that come to them spend time socialing and getting to know one another, and everyone is like a big circle of friends. Do some people hook up during the social and leave early to play? Absolutely, but as far as we know, there has been no pressure from anyone to do so, and the members of the group look out for each other. So maybe, despite all the changes, there is still hope!

[Stratecpl]

I appreciate the discussion going on here. I agree that the internet provides us with a fast, far-reaching tool of contact. With it we find many people that normally we'd never know even exist. I was never into the swinger magazines either. We felt that this wasn't real anyhow, just some means of selling porn at the time, LOL.

Also we find game players galore on the internet, who use the net as a means of picture collecting and a way of possibly boosting egoes by getting others interested in a meeting.... which never happens. I guess it makes some of them feel really big because they talked someone into something that will never happen. They are in control and they like that feeling. Of course the ones on the OTHER end of this deal feel quite differently.

I often wonder how many COUPLES on these sites are actually a MAN posing as a couple???

We still play with acquaintances we've made, those who are really friends and not just your average garden variety of players.

We still are amazed at so many who click on a profile, look at the female's pictures, and send messages to meet for get-togethers without so much as even reading our profiles. When on every blank it states that we're not swinging at present, yet they write anyhow, you KNOW they haven't read the first damn word. I guess they think they'll be the ones who change our lives for the better or something.

Speaking of those friends we've actually made in the lifestyle, these are true friends. Sometimes we get together without any sex involved. We go to movies and barbecue together, watch TV and many other things. Our children play together while the adults visit. Friends do what friends do, you know. If playing comes up, then we play. For us, it isn't a mandatory thing to have sex in order to get together with someone.

We met one couple that grew rather edgy because we'd been at a party with them for over an hour without sex. He said that if he wanted a DATE he would go back to high school. He is strictly a bedpost notcher. This was the last couple we tried to swing with.

Swinging these days has become just that, though. Everyone is more interested in the sex and the thrill, but then quickly move on to their next conquest. Never a worry about remaining friends, never a second thought. After all, it's strictly about THEM....

I won't even begin to mention the "B" problem. There was a huge thread concerning it awhile back so our feelings are quite well expressed there.

Yes, swinging has changed. Some good changes, many bad. We will take it as it comes, but we are exhausted at the work involved. We have had many memorable times that will live in our minds forever, and have changed our future thoughts concerning sex. Our lives are much better and we're more committed to each other than we ever were before, thanks to the lifestyle. But we are also more dead-set in our beliefs and ideals.

Ron, Husband of Stratecpl

[CanadianCouple]

Hello Ron, good to hear from you. Please say hello to Connie from Janette and I.

You have made so many salient points in this morning's post, it's nearly impossible for me to add anything new. However, I wanted to reiterate one issue you raised -- and that's "couples" who are anything but. Specifically, single guys posing as such, or married men visiting swing sites without their spouse's knowledge.

For this reason, we always insist on speaking with both parties over the phone prior to any meeting being arranged, and it's amazing how quickly this ends many communications. We always offer to pay long distance expenses when searching for swing partners, but still the silence on the other end is deafening. One can prolong a lie for only so long before the truth becomes obvious.

My wife Janette very rarely posts here, she's not an individual who relishes internet chat. However, any regular, registered poster(s) in here are certainly welcome to contact us by phone to verify we are indeed a couple who are both actively involved in the swinging lifestyle. We've never had our veracity questioned (to our knowledge anyway), but as Ron points out there are so many frauds out there we have often felt the need to prove we are for real. And this desire to prove our credibility often serves to flush out those who are lacking it.

Ron, it's good to hear from you and Connie, both here and in email. You sound like a wonderful couple to know in person, in and out of the bedroom. Give Connie a big <img border="0" alt="[kiss]" title="" src="graemlins/kiss1.gif" /> for me.

Dan