Rules & The Elusive Unicorn

[Tempest419]

I hope someone can help me out here... I wasn't sure where to put this topic. Our 3rd of the threesome is a Single female so I thought it might be best to get advice in the singles area.

Seriously (Husband) and I are of course involved with my best friend, whom I love very much. Husband's also grown much closer to her and I think they consider themselves very good friends even w/o me... needless to say there are lots of emotions involved. Sexually, we have had several threesomes over the last few months. Now she is dating again and has met a couple of guys so far. She's been dating one guy for a month.

I understand things happen and change and you can't generally set things in stone, but it always seems to be the same thing that she will be vague and tell me about seeing a guy after the fact... last night was the same, and they did indeed have sex. I feel weird about not knowing what her plans are. For instance, she also met another guy last week for coffee (from this dating service) twice, and both times I heard about it afterward.... however, she saw him very shortly after speaking with me on the phone both times! She is often, (I observe) vague and non-committal in telling me about plans with guys. She tells me that is b/c she is spontaneous and her plans change frequently, it's hard to tell me what her plans are with a guy pretty much until she's doing them.... but I feel it's "situational" because for instance she will tell me just about anything else about her schedule, from her work to her hair appointments. Keep in mind that we talk SEVERAL times a day, every day. I observe that I am not being given information about the guys, specifially, up front.

Husband tells me it's b/c she knows I'm jealous and doesn't want to deal with it... although I feel like I am not being given a chance b/c she's never told me beforehand and seen how I would react. I am the type of person who can be blunt and open to the point of making people uncomfortable (consequently, my education/expertise is in Communications) and generally carry the attitude that everyone should be open and very communicative, especially when sex with other people (outside the three of us) is involved. For instance, we did make friends with a single guy and I was planning to see him again... however, we did consider her feelings and asked her how she felt about it before the fact, i.e., if it would bother her. To me... I would feel like I was hiding something or being deceitful if I had him over again for a night and told her after the fact--like, I wasn't sure how you'd react so I guess I'll just do it and see???

I guess what it comes down to, is that I expected the same attitude/communication when introducing a "new" partner into the three of us and was hurt when I didn't receive it. Which tells me it's not really a much of a committed, poly-type triad, and really I'm just swingin' with a bi-fem, which was not my intention or desire in being with her. If the emotions are irrelevant or "too much" coming from me, then it is obviously much deeper on my part than hers.

I expressed my discomfort with finding out after the fact to her, which she did not respond well to. Her point was, 1) I don't know what I'm going to do from one minute to the next, or how the date's going to go, so how can I know to tell you in advance, and 2) I'm not calling you to ask permission.

In speaking with both Husband and her... it was like talking to the same person! They are on the same page and I am not. What I have gathered after mulling over all conversations is that she has the right to do who and what whenever and I don't really have any grounds to ask about her sexual/emotional involvements because she is single (other than whether or not she went bareback). They both agreed that her telling me after the fact should be acceptable. However, emotionally, I just consistently feel bad when she leaves those "guy" plans out of her conversations with me and tells me afterward. Can't explain it.

I think it must be nice to be a woman involved with a married couple--much more stability and predicability. On my end, it is turning out to be nerve wracking to be involved with a single female. I guess I am taken aback b/c my level of commitment and emotional involvement by all means seems to be stronger than hers... I am just not able to be so detached. That is the SOLE reason that I experimented with the lifestyle of being poly in the first place. If I wanted to just have sex with single bi-fem and not be privy to her relationships and sex life, or a consideration thereof, I could go and do that.

Given this information, I can see that we are off in our expectations (or, apparently, I am off) and to spare myself more hurt feelings, and stress to her over feeling frustrated with me, it's best to back off for a while. I feel like, maybe if she gets into a more serious commitment with this guy and things settle down, perhaps things could be different in the future, and our understanding and commitment levels would be more compatible.

Any advice or thoughts would be most welcome... thanks in advance!

~Tempest

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Tempest419

I am the type of person who can be blunt and open to the point of making people uncomfortable (consequently, my education/expertise is in Communications)

Since my background/education is in communications, I always assumed that the goal of good communication wasn't bluntness, but the ability to make people feel comfortable and confident... If your approach is off-puting and causing people to avoid communicating with you, then your communication skills need a bit of refinement.

Communication is not getting your point across - it is getting to the point. There is a "not too fine" difference.

It seems that they (husband and girlfriend) are communicating quite well - they are on the same page. And I tend to agree with her - unless there is some formal, agreed upon commitment, she is free to do who and what she likes. From the poly people that I know, there are different levels of commitment - and I am not sure that your level has been established/agreed upon by all involved.

Unless she is willing to give you that sort of power over her sexual "doings" then you really can't expect it. The reason she is avoiding talking to you about it may have a lot to do with the name "tempest"

Communication is a two way street - and the strong communicator knows how to establish room for everyone to share and be heard. My guess is she doesn't feel she has this sort of room. My suggestion would be to do just as you suggest - back off - and respect her as a person, free to do what she wants until such time that she agrees with you about the level of commitment in your relationship.

Spoomonkey

[Mrs Spoomonkey]

Part of the problem beside the communication aspect or maybe as part of it seems to me to be the difference between a threesome, FMF, and a poly relationship.

It sounds like you are really into the thought of this being a poly relationship but no one else is. From what I understand of poly relationships it is something that all involved want and agree to. There are usually rules or agreements as to what kind of freedom everyone has and how the logistics of the husband going out with his wife or the other woman will work. You don't mention that any conversation like this between the three of you has occured. If that is the case she is a single female that has her own life and occasionally plays with a couple (you two). Anything outside of that is basically her business unless it is something that directly affects the two of you (i.e. going bareback with someone else).

I would suggest backing off and just relax about the relationship. Let her be comfortable to come to you and talk if she doesn't then just let it go and enjoy the threesome when you all get together.

Mrs Spoomonkey

[good times]

I know very little about Poly style relationships but it sounds to me from what you have related here that what you want with her is a poly relationship and what she wants is more of a traditional open swinging relationship with you.

I also agree with what Spoo said and think she may avoid telling you before hand because she doesn't feel the need or desire to have a confrontation with you about something that she probably feels isn't your business.

I think you are doing the right thing in backing off from it because it is pretty apparent that you both are not on the same page regarding your commitment to each other and what the bounds of your relationship should be.

[Tempest419]

Thank you for the insight. I guess I just expected different things going in... I do think that they would both agree that I have not been "nasty" per say--I should add I have helped to ration my bluntness over time and with education and self-knowledge--I didn't respond badly.... just emotionally. FYI... the ~ before my "sig" is a water sign, a sign of deep emotion. Either way... given the different levels in our ideal relationship and our emotional attachment, I think that any emotional reaction I had to it would have been negatively received because she does not feel this is my right... which to me says my emotions run deeper. What have I gotten myself into????

Many thanks,
~Tempest

[JnCC]

Originally Posted by Tempest419

...Husband and I are of course involved with my best friend, whom I love very much... Sexually, we have had several threesomes over the last few months. Now she is dating again and has met a couple of guys so far.
I understand things happen and change and you can't generally set things in stone, but it always seems to be the same thing that she will be vague and tell me about seeing a guy after the fact... last night was the same, and they did indeed have sex. I feel weird about not knowing what her plans are.

You can be friends with somebody your whole life, but once you start sleeping with them, you're "dating," and the rules change considerably. For example, when you're out with someone, it's a breach of etiquette to discuss other people you're dating. It's OK to talk about the people you're dating with your friends, but not with your dates. It sounds like that line's become blurred for you, probably because this person was previously a friend.

she will tell me just about anything else about her schedule, from her work to her hair appointments... I observe that I am not being given information about the guys, specifially, up front.

Right...the "friend stuff she still shares with you, but the "date" stuff she's a lot more reserved about, because she worries that she's raising some issues of jealousy in you.

I am the type of person who can be blunt and open to the point of making people uncomfortable...and generally carry the attitude that everyone should be open and very communicative, especially when sex with other people (outside the three of us) is involved.

That's another rule that goes out the window when you're sleeping with (or trying to sleep with) someone. Are you trying to woo this person, or steamroll them? Does she ask you to reveal every detail of your sex life, in advance? Bluntless and honesty has it's place in the world, but save it for technical reports and internal memos, not dating.

I guess what it comes down to, is that I expected the same attitude/communication when introducing a "new" partner into the three of us and was hurt when I didn't receive it. Which tells me it's not really a much of a committed, poly-type triad, and really I'm just swingin' with a bi-fem...

Yes, your goals in this are much different than hers, which means it might be time to go back to being "just friends."

However, emotionally, I just consistently feel bad when she leaves those "guy" plans out of her conversations with me and tells me afterward. Can't explain it.

A couple things come to mind...one, you obviously have a deep emotional..."fixation"... on this woman. Is it possible (and I'm just throwing this out there, not saying it IS) but is it possible you want to know who she's with in advance, so you can intercede in her relationships and protect your own "territory?"

Another thing that happens when couples play with singles is that one of them starts to envy the autonomy that the single person has in their personal life, and it causes some discord. Again, I'm not saying it's true in your case, but I've seen it happen with others.

I think it must be nice to be a woman involved with a married couple--much more stability and predicability.

I think it would suck to high heaven. It's not that great for a single guy, and we don't generally form the kinds of emotional bonds that women do. I would think that for a woman, the only "stability" would be knowing that you're a rare commodity, and that replacing you would be hard to do. As for "predictability," there may be some truth in that. Generally, if you set your expectations for a relationship low enough, they'll be "predictably met" more often than not. If being the "third" were that nice, more women would be doing it. As it is, it's "using a LOT of bait to catch a fish they don't have the tackle to land" as one of my friends puts it.

I am just not able to be so detached.

You're not alone. I've met other people who have eventually become disenchanted with the "emotional void" one often finds in hard-core swingers. When you do meet somebody you feel a connection with, you then have to deal with the notion that they're pretty much fucking whoever they want, whenever they want. It's a game of numbers darlin', and the best strategy is to take lots of "applications" from people, then cull the heard early and often.

[EternallySingle]

I didn't see this post before. If I had, what I wrote at the end of your husband's post I would have written here. I won't say your friend used you and your husband to get back to the point where she could feel comfortable being sexual with a man, but in a sense, that is what happened. Actually, that is what you said you wanted from her in the other post. Now that it has happened, you want to know who she is going to be with when she decides to be with him.

I think you need to step back a bit and reevaluate your feelings for your freind. Is she a same sex best friend and sex partner for you and your husband, or is she a little sister you are trying to guide and protect, and sex is a bonus because you aren't related? Your relationship with her is a little murky in your mind, according to the two posts I've read. That is making you anxious about where you stand with her, and that is the seed of jealousy.

You and your husband have discussed the relationship the three of you have together. Now you have to get a handle on where you stand with her one-on-one. I think that you see her as a sister you don't want to see hurt, and the fact that you have had sex has mad that concern manifest itself as jealousy. I hope thats the case, because the alternative is that you want her to yourself, and if it came down to only having her or your husband, you would choose her because you have more in common.

I don't think you want her more than your husband, so you have to resign yourself to the fact that she doesn't need your emotional protection from men anymore.

[Tempest419]

Originally Posted by EternallySingle

I didn't see this post before. If I had, what I wrote at the end of your husband's post I would have written here. I won't say your friend used you and your husband to get back to the point where she could feel comfortable being sexual with a man, but in a sense, that is what happened....

I don't think you want her more than your husband, so you have to resign yourself to the fact that she doesn't need your emotional protection from men anymore.

I didn't think of that, but maybe you're right... when we were vanilla friends for years I felt protective of her due to a couple of failed romances she incurred. Maybe you're right in that now it's morphed into a blurry line.

I think it is also difficult for me b/c for this time, she has been attached to me closely for a while, telling me how I was the number one person/relationship in her life (which for a time, was true), how she had *never, ever* come with a man like she had me (an ego boost?) and yet.... when I was met yesterday morning with the news that she not only has a new sex partner, but also said; "I thought I'd had the best sex of my life before, but I was wrong!" and proceeded to tell me the details. It was a bit shocking to hear about it in such terms. I don't think she understands the major shift I have incurred in her life in verra, verra short order, in terms of priority, by her own changing definitions of who and what I am to her. As a friend, I would've loved the juicy gossip. As the lover, I'm like, WTF? I thought *I* gave you the best orgasms???

Confusing? Anyway...

I also had a male friend of mine say the same thing that you said, today--that I was a stepping stone and now she doesn't me anymore In our conversations she did say she was glad she had the new guy (to fall back on) in case I decided to pull the plug... yikes.... that hurt. There's a big difference--we were having a lot of sex anyway--I was not just into her as an alternative sex source when Husband is busy.

As for my Husband; I may be similar to my bf in ways... but I often feel he (corny as it is) completes me. The bonds we have go many years deep--he has committed to me, he has been there consistenly, he is the person with whom I make a home and the father of my child... if anything good has come of this, it's that our eyes have been opened to new parts of one another, and we are much closer than before. And besides... we learned we can work together under great pressure and against many odds to realize our goals and dreams.

I am most certainly pulling back from this lifestyle at this time, on that Husband and I agree!

~Tempest

[Dynamar]

I'm a single female.

I guess I'm still confused as to the nature of the entire situation. Are you a poly-triad, or not? From what's already been written, I'm thinking that perhaps y'all are not, but you want to be. If that's the case, then I (were I in the single female position) would run... run like the wind... away from this situation!

Nobody decides who I see but me, and likewise nobody dictates "who knows what" about who I see and what I do. I'm just kinda weirded out by the scenario, even if you were friends to begin with.

[Menage_a_Trois]

Originally Posted by Tempest419

I guess what it comes down to, is that I expected the same attitude/communication when introducing a "new" partner into the three of us and was hurt when I didn't receive it. Which tells me it's not really a much of a committed, poly-type triad, and really I'm just swingin' with a bi-fem, which was not my intention or desire in being with her. If the emotions are irrelevant or "too much" coming from me, then it is obviously much deeper on my part than hers.

Have you infact sat down with your spouse and your girlfriend and discussed the fact that you are wanting or "Think" your in a poly relationship? From what I have read you just assumed that you were.

Poly relationships, true poly relationships, are about much, much more than just a sexual relationship. They become committed relationships amoung three or more people. I know because I am in one. We have been together for approximately 9 months now. And we share everything.

When we first started seeing each other, Mr. & Mrs. Menage and myself, I was single and I was dating. Did I share every encounter/date with them? No. It wasn't really any of their business at the time. However, once the relationship became more serious and progressed dating and seeing others wasn't something I would have even seriously considered because my heart frankly would not have allowed me to.

So I have to seriously doubt that the relationship you think you have is anything close to a poly relationship and frankly based on the little information provided - your friend isn't obligated to tell you her every move.

The Other Menage_a_Trois

[Tempest419]

Yes we discussed polyamory. I sent them both web sites and information about it, and we all talked about it more than once. It was never a confusion that she would be dating and pursuing her own family at some point soon... though we did joke that if she wasn't married at 36, maybe she could marry us???

It's not full poly in that we don't share an entire household and children... we are bound by love... she does, or did, spend the night 2-3 nights per week, every week, and helped me out at various times with the watching our son, and she always brought groceries (???... do groceries mean "polyamory"???... :rollseyes ) and she was even our child's godmother. She is the third primary adult in his LIFE. In fact... the first night we spent, emotions and excitement were aided by our discussion of polyamory relationships, possibilities for her new relationships, and the fact that we loved her and gave her godship that night. She in turn, did not want me or us to have sex with other women. I feel like I got taken on an emotional high, and now the responsibility is too much.

I *thought* I was clear when I said I loved this person, and that everyone believed me. Now even Husband somehow feels betrayed by my strong feelings for her... talk about being between a rock and a hard place...

It's been a really crappy week...

~T

[Alura]

I'm sorry about your week, Tempest, and hope it gets a lot better really quickly!

It seems to me you have put more of yourself into this relationship. Perhaps your friend has been "spreading her wings" trying to regain some control of her sexuality. Perhaps not, but in any case I think you should heed advice given above and ease off on the expectations a bit.

Don't tell her you want out; I don't believe you do. Just tell her how you feel and let her fly for awhile. Y'all are young and have time to work out the problems.

Good luck, and please keep us informed.

Mr. Alura

[Alura]

By the way, I just read your profile. You are a very interesting person. If our paths ever cross, Mrs. Alura and I would like to shake your hand and have a long conversation about the interests you list.

Mr. Alura