Helping wife get past her past trauma

[Alura]

Originally posted by frenchie

Like the other day, she said that maybe for my b'day we can go back to the club, (she has stated that she did enjoy going) but that IF we go, the same rules apply, she wants us to keep any and all sexual activity to just us. That if anyone wants to watch us, that's fine, but that's it.

I want to go back to the club,but is she for real, or only offering this to please me, or just stringing me along.

thanks for the replies
F.

If she's really wants to go back to the club, I see no reason not to. Make love to her and let other people watch. That may be a turn-on for her, too.

But if she is only doing it for you, you should not. The most important thing for you to do is to find out how she really feels. Yes, it's important that you talk to her, but it's even more important that you listen to her.

Mr. Alura

[frenchie]

Hiya and thanks for the many replies,

when we went to the club the first time, she knew I wanted to go and see what happens, sort of check it out, as I've never been to one and neither had she. My wife knowing that I really wanted to go, after some talks, she brought up going and actually made the arangements. I was in awww.

During the 90 minute drive, half way there shje made a statement that I could have whatever I wanted while we were there but then our marriage was dead in the water and that if I chose to do by bidding that just as soon as we got back home she was calling our marriage quits. Packing, leaving and filing for divorce that Monday.

So needless to say if I looked too much at another woman or couple or allowed anything to happen with another person or persons; our life was over. Was it fair of her to take me there with no intentions what so ever of doing anything??

I resloved myself there n then that my life with her was most important and we kept to ourselves. We danced, ate, made love together, enjoyed the hot-tub, etc... but that was it, there was a woman at the bar giving a blow-job to a few guys and I really wanted to get a closer look, but the look in my wifes eyes we're deadly. So I watvched from afar. Then another woman got totally nude and danced on the small dance floor, doing a very sexual dance with the brass pole, I didn't utter a sound and tried to watch without making it too noticable, but as soon as the woman began to do her thing, my wife appeard to want to block my view and I felt uncomfortable, it was as if she took us there to tease me, to let me see what fgoes on at a club, but not let me see, as if she was desparate to keep me focused on just her and forget where we were??? That was about 6 months ago.

Then she gets upset with me if I check the accounts and has made it clear that I am not to do this unless she's right there. So with our work schedule the accounts don't get ckecked to often, but on Christmas day after our guests left I went to the computer and checked our accounts, she flew off the handle and shouted at me that "why do you have to check those accounts on OUR holiday" and something to the effect of that she can't have a normal day without this invading her life" and got told the same thing when I check the accounts on her b'day.

I made a mistake of checking those accounts on her b'day, and an even bigger mistake when I went to the adult store and bought a few porno's for her b'day, she's wasn't upset at my gift, she was upset that I forgot to get her a card. So in my attempt to do some damage control me and my 12 yr old step son decorated the house (inside n out) on that Sunday while she was work, we bought her a card, made a homemade cake, made the dinner, bought her a few gifts (none sexual) it smoothed things over and life was back on track.

Then while we were out doing some shopping, we were looking at some digital cameras and she made a comment about the size and how small it was and then a gesture about how it could fit between her breasts and laughingly said how it could be snuck into the club. I felt like; cool, she wants to go back, so I didn't bring it up again, then a few weeks later we were in the Mall and she saw a cute skirt and wanted to stop and check it out, and while we were there I jokingly asked "a clubing skirt?" and her reply was ; Maybe or could be.

So once again I left it at that. Then like I said in my post she brings up the subject of going to the club, but with the same rules.

Even though I'd like the whole package I've told her many times that I'm happy with what she feels comfortable with, if she doesn't want touching, fine, if she's only comfortable being watched, then ok, I'm not the 'all or nothing' type, and having a little is better then getting none.

I feel that even though I try not bring it up, she knows I still want to explore it and is trying to give me what I want while keeping herself and our relationship free from harm.

My wife is wonderful, and everything I never knew I deserved in life and do not want to be withot her, but she's the clasic 'over-do-er' always thinking of others before herself. That's what makes her happy, but in her quest to make me happy and give me what I want, it's tearing her apart at the seams. seeing her standing there doing dishes with quiet tears falling down her cheek just to make me happy.

In retrospect, Yes I want this, but not at this cost, so do I stay happy with what she's giving me (making me a taker) or tell her I'm no longer interested when she brings the subect up.... (making me a liar)

thanks,
F.

Originally posted by Alura
If she's really wants to go back to the club, I see no reason not to. Make love to her and let other people watch. That may be a turn-on for her, too.

But if she is only doing it for you, you should not. The most important thing for you to do is to find out how she really feels. Yes, it's important that you talk to her, but it's even more important that you listen to her.

Mr. Alura

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by frenchie
In retrospect, Yes I want this, but not at this cost, so do I stay happy with what she's giving me (making me a taker) or tell her I'm no longer interested when she brings the subect up.... (making me a liar)

Whoa...you have some serious problems here. I agree with what the others have relayed to you, in paricular, wrnakedru's cut to meat of the matter posting. I'll not repeat what they have said as I ditto them all.

However, what you don't seem to be getting is that from your postings, I see a very self-serving individual and 'making you out a liar' does not stem from saying you are no longer interested when she brings the subject up.... It began when you said your relationship was more important than anything else. Quite frankly, if you valued your relationship over and above anything else, you would "NOT" be lying when you relay to her that you are no longer interested as that interest is one that could cost you someone you cherish.

My opinion. Do some good hard thinking with the head that is on your shoulders and not the one you zipper up each day.

Best of luck to you both Frenchie, I mean that sincerely, as you are going to need it.

Mrs. O

[Alura]

Lying is never a good option, F.

I'd suggest you do what you should have done from the beginning: Let her lead you into whatever she wants to happen but don't try to guide her in any way.

Mr. Alura

[chickster]

I completely agree with the posters here, especially wrnakedru and Mr. Alura. How incredibly selfish of you! All she wants to do is please you and you completely have taken advantage of this. You have physically not forced her to do anything, but by even your mention of it, you are playing mind games with her and you probably don't even realize it. Many women cannot seperate sex and love. Maybe it's something built in. But just because you can, doesn't mean she should or can. In her mind and heart, because she can't seperate the two, she's incredibly hurt by your mere mention of the idea.
Decide what's more important to you. Your wife with whom you have great sex with and is so committed to your happiness that she would agree to something she doesn't believe is right in her heart just to please you, or destroying that completely because of your selfishness.

[passion8]

Just returned to the board after a few days away, wow.

To have just read this thread the whole way through for the first time, I feel so sorry for Mrs Frenchie. The members of the board have given some great advice. Please Frenchie take a good look at yourself because you sound so self centred and on such a sensitive subject too. Swinging is most definitely not for everybody, those of us who are males and take part in the lifestyle probably do so as a priviledge because of the understanding nature of our relationship with our SO. We've occasionally come across the self centred male in a club - even giving them a wide birth, they can still have the ability to ruin the night for others.

The adage in swinging is "one partner takes the couple into swinging, the other one keeps them swinging". You've tried to take your wife into swinging, but in this case she clearly doesn't want to stay. Therefore you are not destined to be swingers, sorry that's the way it is and you are in the vast majority here. Please accept that, put her first in your relationship. Understand that the only reason she brings up swinging at the moment is because of the pressure you've put on her. Next time she brings it up you need to tell her you've realised it's not a good idea for your relationship and that you should both forget all about it. If one day a long way down the road she starts talking about swinging again, consider yourself very lucky, but make sure you never bring it up again you've sowed the seed (with some serious over seeding) the ball remains in her court now.

Also forget the accounts you are not being fair on your wife. If you can't put your wife first in your relationship you shouldn't be married.

[SluttyWife]

I'm not going to be hard on you cos it is very sincere of you to ask for help here. But counseling, preferably couples counseling would help her a great deal. This could be the underlying reason for her participation in this kind of lifestyle.

The body has a tendency to store hurts, my friend and the MMF you had might have been a revisit to her past.

Trust me on this one, I have been there. I was a groupie in my younger days. It's a long and winding road to recovery....she'll be revisiting these hurts, dealing with them as a grown up and thus healing. Avoiding sex isn't going to make it all go away. But sticking together will help a great deal. You need to swing a little more sensitively for the time being as well.

Talk to her!

Surrender

Slutty Wife

[Rett]

Frenchie, from your postings:

YOUR WIFE:
is wonderful and everything you never knew or deserved in life......Is fun, sexual, passionate, and looking for ways to please you.......Believes sex without love is meaningless......Prides herself for not being free and open sexually.....Has had traumatic past experiences such as rape and an unfaithful husband.......Wants to keep your relationship free from harm.

YOU:
Have been previously divorced.......Have a step-child......have unfulfilled fantasies and desires concerning swinging.....have explained your desires and why's till you're blue in the face.......Nudged your wife into a MMF combo.......pressured her continually to go to a swingers club until she conceded.....Stated that you will take all the help and suggestions you can get.

After nudging your wife, as you expressed, into a MMF combo and then a swingers club your wife said if you continue to do your bidding she would file for divorce. She has since had spells of breaking down into tears.

=========================================

You have found the best board to obtain direct ,honest, and to the point responses.

I cannot express myself nearly as well as the members of the board done so, i'll try to best summarize from their postings:

Consider what is in your wife's best interest.....You are being selfish by pushing until your wife breaks......Swinging isn't for everyone.......Take the pressure off her completely.....Leave the idea of swinging as a fantasy......By mentally coercing your wife into a MMF combo and a Swinger club you have robbed her of her very essence, her self esteem.........Don't pressure your wife into a sexual activity, it is a form of RAPE.....You have created a huge problem, named Broken Trusst.......If you can't put your wife first, you shouldn't be married.....Nex time the subject is brought up tell your wife it was a bad idea and then forget about it.......Decide what is most important to you.....You may have already caused unrepairable damage to your marriage.......Seek counseling, couples counseling, and rape counseling......If your wife wants to pursue it in the future consider it a blessing

And yes, it is fair of your wife to go to a party without the intention of doing anything. She was considerate enough to concede going just to please you and see if it were something she would consider. She is your wife and partner and you should only agree under those terms . If you've read the boards there is a Golden Rule that states "NO MEANS NO' .

What are you doing to your family. You have a loving wife and a child to consider. Everyone in the world has unfulfilled desires. Your wife wants a Soul Mate. Love her, Truly, Madly, Deeply

[b smith]

This is the first time we can honestly admit we have read all of the replies on a thread more than a page. From your replies there is absolutely no indication your wife wants to be a part of this lifestyle and every indication that she wants no part of it. Any attempt is her way of trying to please you. Including her going to the clubs and the ground rules that she has set. Even if she brings the subject up on her own it is an attempt for her to give you what you want. Furthermore it seems from your replies you are continuously forcing the subject, either directly or indirectly through your actions. You also make several mentions of "checking the accounts" what does the "accounts" have to do with swinging anyhow? They are two totally unrealted items. Does a falling brick wall has to hit you before you get the message that you are doing no one any favours, including yourself, by continuously forcing the subject with her. From reading your posting and replies it sounds like this is a "tit for a tat" type of approach. Meaning you don't question her actions as long as she participates in swinging. That is absolutely no way of having a loving realtionship.

As a couple we do not advocate therapy / counselling as we believe it does no one any good and if the practioner is bad it can do a great deal of emotional damage. The damage done can be far worse than medical malpractice. Good communication, respect for each other, and love for one another does more than a good therapist. Plus it makes a relationship healthy.

Take a step back and look at what you are doing to a woman who obviously loves you, for whatever reason. Let the subject die for at least a year before bringing it up again and seriously work on the relationship. Even if she brings up the subject on her own be a man and say to her,"I love you and want to make you happy. In due course we can talk about this subject again. However for the time being lets take some time for ourselves and let me show you how much I love you". There will always be clubs, movies, males interested in being the third in a mfm, and the like. There is only one soulmate and she may not always be there if you continue down the path you have chosen. The best thing is to let her go if all you want is a "ticket" into the lifestyle. Have more respect for her and yourself than what you are showing right now. If not, you will wind up being one miserable loney person with no one else to blame but yourself.soapbox

[IndyGirl2004]

Ditto to almost 100% of what b smith said.

My only exception here is that I do believe that sometimes counseling can help. I totally agree that a bad counselor can do more harm than good. Absolutely. However, in order to have good communication, you have to know what good communication is and how to do it. Hence, the counselor, a good one, can help someone with skewed thinking to "get it" IF the counselee really wants the help.

A good counselor can help both people to learn more effective communication techniques such as arguing styles, how to be aware of "emotional landmines" or when to back off; choosing when and where to argue or discuss things; help one or both to know when something is worth discussing at all, or when it might cause more harm than good (as seen here). When to just listen and be supportive, etc. I just believe that good communication is a skill and that it must be learned; some are better at it than others. How can you solve a problem, such as the one discussed here, if one or both parties don't know how to truly hear what the other person is saying?

I am not defending the husband here. For what it's worth, the hubby here sounds to me like he's being very selfish in this instance and, based on what he has said here, I question his loyalty to his relationship. Maybe, he just hasn't really thought about her feelings enough yet. I hope that the advice and information given to him here will help him to think through just how important swinging really is and how dedicated he is to his lady. Some of his word choices are rather "unfeeling" if you will. The "stringing me along" comment was pretty harsh. Given the fact that he's posting his responses here, which is good, I would have thought that, after reading some of the information and advice given to him, he'd have done more soul-searching, and that he'd have chosen words that denote a more caring attitude toward her. I understand that he is frustrated and upset because he's not getting what he wants (the swinging), and he seems to be confused as to what she wants, but sometimes we just can't have what we want because it will hurt those we love. Which is more dear to you: the swinging or your love???????

Honesty from both is extremely critical. You must decide just how important this issue is to you as a couple and go from there.

Again, best of luck to this couple. I hope that they can work this through to a happy conclusion for both. It will take love for each other, caring, consideration, communication, and maybe some sacrifice of one's own desires (meaning his for her) to make this relationship work. It sounds as if his lady wants to please him, but maybe she just can't do it in this way for whatever reason(s). Maybe he needs to please her in this and put her needs above his.

Hugs to all

[TNT]

A little different view here so the asbestos suits are on to protect from the flames, lol...

First off we don’t see this as a one way street as most of the posters have, i.e....all the husbands fault.

Yes, we agree that he seems to be extremely pushy in one respect (especially in view of his wife’s history) but the wife is definitely very wishy-washy as well. It is obvious that she has a major problem with swinging and it is something that she probably will never be able to come to terms with. However, in the same respect she is not really being fair to her husband by not making this absolutely clear.

You do not hang a steak in front of a hungry dog then snatch it away...the following statement he made was so wrong on her part...

when we went to the club the first time, she knew I wanted to go and see what happens, sort of check it out, as I've never been to one and neither had she. My wife knowing that I really wanted to go, after some talks, she brought up going and actually made the arangements. I was in awww.

During the 90 minute drive, half way there shje made a statement that I could have whatever I wanted while we were there but then our marriage was dead in the water and that if I chose to do by bidding that just as soon as we got back home she was calling our marriage quits. Packing, leaving and filing for divorce that Monday.

They both need to make some major decisions here. He needs to decide if this is something that he absolutely has to have and if so he’s going to have to get out of the present relationship as we don’t feel it’s going to happen. If his love for his wife is greater than his need to swing he needs to totally drop the subject, never bring it up again and tell her it’s closed and he doesn’t even want her to mention it again.

She needs to stop teasing him and giving him ultimatums, if she doesn’t want to swing say so and stop going back and forth on the subject. Offering him something that he wants then putting limits on it is not the way to go. She needs to tell him I’ve tried, I can’t and I’m not going to ever again so don’t ever expect it to happen and don’t bring it up again, ever. She needs to stop titillating him by making offers she is not intending to go through with whole heartedly.

Our advice to frenchie is drop the subject totally and if she brings it back up tell her No, your not interested in going to a club or doing anything if she is going to act the same way she has in the past with ultimatums and being upset afterwards. It’s not good for her or you in the long run.

TNT

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by TNT
A little different view here so the asbestos suits are on to protect from the flames, lol...

First off we don’t see this as a one way street as most of the posters have, i.e....all the husbands fault.


TNT

Say, TNT...excellent points and thanks for bringing them up.

You know, I had thought many of the same things as I read this thread but was hesitant to comment as a single person...just seemed to me as if the wife was sending serious mixed messages. Now of course, we've only heard his side of the story and a couple of things come to mind...1) he's added more 'negative' types of details as things have gone along, and 2) we've all been in on that situation where, after hearing both sides, our thoughts and opinions change dramatically. But, simply based on what he has said it seems that she is guilty of leading this guy on to some extent.

Counseling has been recommended by several others and if these facts, as presented, are accurate, I can't think of any activity that would benefit this couple more than that, and especially just now. As for the rape issue...if indeed that is the case, then the Mrs. really needs to come to terms with that issue for the sake of her marriage, but more importantly, for the sake of herself. Life must be miserable for any woman who has gone through that experience but hasn't resolved her feelings and emotions about it.

Regardless of who is at fault or the various sides of the story, it seems to me that this couple needs to avoid swinging like the plague - at least until all of these issues are resolved. And from that standpoint, frenchie needs to put the idea of swinging to bed for the time being and focus on what seems to be serious problems in his relationship with his wife - whether these are his problems, her problems, or their problems. Isn't that what marriage is all about? Making things better for your spouse?

Just my thoughts - and yep! I'm wearing my asbestos suit, too. This might prove to be lethal!

- EBF

[NightGoddess]

Okay, I'm going to jump in and take a risk here with my 2c:

First, as a survivor of rape, incest, and child molestation, it is very difficult to know what we truly want sexually! Somehow, the experience makes us shut down in varying ways, not the least of which is emotionally and sexually...if this seems confusing, let me say it is confusing as hell to be looking at one's sexuality from the inside out when you've been treated as an 'object'. Cognitively, we 'know' that isn't right....but then one gets to a certain age, the hormones kick in, and there's a huge instinct that surfaces that allows the return of sexual desire.
The Catch-22 is: the emotional conflict from the rape and abuse hasn't been resolved!!!

One solution for women in our situation is to turn to other women for a less scary more nurturing kind of emotional and sexual relationship. Many many women who survive rape and sexual assault at a young age find peace in this direction. [[ Please note I am not judging here, just reporting what I've witnessed in Recovery Group Therapy]]
Another solution is that these women try to live as normal a life as possible with a strong commitment to fidelity in marriage and a willingness to be open, honest, and vulnerable again --But only in the context of the marriage!! Many of us find peace in the blending of marriage, sexuality, and the control aspects of sex with just one man, always.
---> the point I want to bring up here is the fact that we don't deny our sexuality, it's just that our conditioning with sexual experiences was screwed up. It leaves us very little options unless we decide to heal in whatever way works.
Mr. Frenchie doesn't think Mrs. Frenchie is 'bad' or 'sexually wanton' by having a successful 3way....the real point here is Mrs. Frenchies' feelings afterwards...not to mention she may feel like she agreed (and maybe very honestly enjoyed the activity at the time) -- but nobody teaches survivors of abuse how to deal with the feelings afterwards!!! You can't talk us out of how we feel; it's just there. Emotions aren't logical....but Mrs. Frenchies' reactions and feelings make sense in her personal context and that's what really matters here.

I happen to agree with the majority of the posters:
Mr. Frenchie, get your priorities straight and decide if you want a wonderful marriage and a sane happy wife,
or
divorce her so she can find a man who really loves her.

Yes, you owe her an apology and you owe her your support to feel whatever she feels, as is her right.

She wasn't jerking you around at the club or otherwise-- she was trying hard to find out several things at once: what your attraction is for club action, what the action is, and deal with her feelings at the same time.
--- a big assignment, don't you think?
And for chrissakes, gimme a break; we aren't perfect. I might try something new if my lover seemed very turned on by it: but I also trust my lover to protect and cherish me. I trust him to value my feelings as he values his -- or more. I also know he can read my reactions....if I am inwardly shocked to see a woman giving multiple blowjobs-- imagine how I might feel to see my lover obviously attracted to the activity...she might well be thinking: 'does he want me to do this?' --
I agree with all who say drop the subject completely. Don't even mention it when she's looking at clothes, or toilet brushes. Drop it if you value your wife.
From the sound of it, she's a courageous lady trying hard to forget a huge trauma and be a good partner to you. From what you've said, she is anxious to please you. What more do you want, eggs in your beer?!?!

[frenchie]

Many thanks to all who took the time to post replies and a very big thanks to TNT and BI who seemed to see how I feel during this on again off again attitude from my wife.

About 8 months ago during a argument I actually packed and left, she was crying and holding our marriage paper and weeping that she wanted "this" to mean something, I told her as-matter-of-factly that "why should I have to pay for the ass holes that hurt you?, I've wanted this for along time and I'm going to have, with you or without you" and then I left. Now I did come back a few hours later, I decided that I wasn't being fair, I figured I'd put all my swinging dreams in the back of my mind and leave it there, but every now and then the subject comes up.

To be perfectly honest, this is something I've always wanted to try, (she knows this- as I've told her many times), considering she loves sex, I thought "FINALLY" someone I could share this with.

Is it my fault that she's had a few bad experinces?? Should I continue to pay for the ones who hurt her in the past?? I don't think so, I'm not them, I have no trouble separating sex from love, (not that I want to have sex with another woman) but if it were something my wife wanted to see or have happen ; hell I'm not going to say no.

It's like the MFM we did, she was so excited during the event (or at least she appeared to be) it was the after, after things settled down, she was always in tears, thinkings somehow she violated our vows, I tried to comfort her, I told her that I love her, that nothing, none of my feelings for her had changed. And that was some months ago.

It's like nothing I do works or is good enough for her, when we first got together things were very new & exciting, we used to make love almost every night and send each other greetings and leave each other little love notes in our vehicals, but in every relationship things slow down, we don't make love every night, probably 3 times a week, and with us both working (and the little side projects I do for our home- ex. fixing up our vehicals, build a new desk, re-finish the coffee table, etc.) I don't have as much time as I used to to send her greetings or leave a love note in her car. But all she does is complain how I don't do these things all the time, she doesn't understand that I'm busy doing other things now, other things that also show my love. and like I've told her "there's only so much I can do before you get bord with them". Just because she can still find the time to work, keep house, raise kids, plus leave me notes, greetings etc. that doesn't mean I can. I'm not "Superman"

Guess I've strolled off course.
F.
F.

[Elusive BiFem]

Ahhh...now frenchie...this recent post has had the effect (on me) of making you out to be a total jerk. Are you? I mean...now come on...

Is it my fault that she's had a few bad experinces?? Should I continue to pay for the ones who hurt her in the past?? I don't think so, I'm not them, I have no trouble separating sex from love, (not that I want to have sex with another woman) but if it were something my wife wanted to see or have happen ; hell I'm not going to say no.

No, it's not your fault she had a "few bad experiences" (and I believe I'd use a word other than "bad" to describe a rape), but sorry, buddy...yeah...she's your WIFE and you do have a great deal of responsibility in terms of providing support and understanding. In any relationship, we take 'em as we get 'em and you got her knowing full well what the circumstances were and are. And what is this thing about "not that I want to have sex with another woman?" Your wife obviously doesn't want to participate at this time, so what is the purpose other than you having sex with another woman?

And this...

About 8 months ago during a argument I actually packed and left, she was crying and holding our marriage paper and weeping that she wanted "this" to mean something, I told her as-matter-of-factly that "why should I have to pay for the ass holes that hurt you?, I've wanted this for along time and I'm going to have, with you or without you" and then I left.

You don't want to have sex with another woman...yet you pack a bag and leave her standing in the door crying? "I've wanted this for along time and I'm going to have, with you or without you" and then I left." That in and of itself is a total contradiction to much of what you've said.

She may be sending you mixed messages/signals, but this post certainly sounds as if you are guilty of the same. Sounds to me this relationship is replete with mixed messages. Not the makings of a sound relationship, IMO.

Every single person that has posted has said something to the effect that you need to take swinging out of the equation in your relationship...if not permanently, at least for the time being. I'm no exception. I agreed with counseling for your wife, initially...now I'm thinking you need the counseling as badly as she does. Maybe more so, given your propensity for selfishness and self-centeredness.

Finally...you concluded with the bit about being too busy...and it is just delightful to see that refinishing a coffee table takes precedence over providing thoughtful gestures to the one you profess to love in a relationship. (and people wonder why I'm single?!?) Aren't you lucky that you married superwoman since you can't even find the time to leave a simple note or card. Lucky woman she is.

I said it before. Put swinging on the back burner and focus on your relationship with your wife. Nothing wrong with the desire to swing as long as it doesn't inflict emotional pain on the one you profess to love, but when it gets to the point that pain is there - shut the door on the entire idea. Or...get a divorce. Simple as that.

- EBF