Out of the closet?

[BradAndJanet]

Bill (of billandsabrina) and I started this discussion in another thread. I think it's an important and interesting enough subject that it deserves a thread of its own. It's a multi-part question...

Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

I have to run, but I promise to give my answers to these later.

-B

[RMRx2]

Originally posted by BradAndJanet
Bill (of billandsabrina) and I started this discussion in another thread. I think it's an important and interesting enough subject that it deserves a thread of its own. It's a multi-part question...

Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

I have to run, but I promise to give my answers to these later.

-B

Answers

Part 1; everything in it's own time, we are a very conflicted society, especially in the states. we flaunt sexuality in advertising , media and the like,,,,,,,but as a society we are relative prudes. As an individual couple, we would be extremely careful of who knew much of our private lives. swingers, lifestylers, whatever, ARE , in my opinion, "coming out" and have been so slowly through the internet, media, and free exchange of information. We found our way to this board , didn't we? IMHO, society dosen't change rapidly, but over time, and as a whole, is not currently ready for the ideas and activities that those in the lifestyle have normalized in their own lives. maybe someday

part 2 ; both are certainly a "coming out" but as I see it, one is a gender preference issue, sexual orientation and one is of monogamy. mainstream society has issues with both, but certainly most societies still support sanctioned, monogamous relationships between two people,,,that relationship is just now gaining more recognition for same sex unions,,,,,,but it is still two different issues

part 3; didn't really answer yes, but I do want to comment here. I think that as a society, we have sex,,,,,and well for that matter love,all twisted up, still seem as perverted even. how many were raised feeling sex was bad, or dirty, or had to be secretive,,,shameful,,,,,,,how about self pleasuring?,,,,,,,,,and to what pain does that lead,,,problems in relationships?,,,,I think that those who have worked hard and succeeded in "untwisting" things for themselves should live by example wherever possible and be a guide and help to those who still struggle, whether that is swinging or leading a monogamous life

just my 2 cents
rmrx2

[velbuzz]

RMX laid out the basic issue with coming out. We are still wrestling with our Puritanical/Victorian roots. Monogamy is still the attempted norm, but looking at divorce rates proves my long held opinion that homo sapiens are not meant to be sexually monogamous.

Is this similar to the homosexuality. Again, radical changes in sexual behavior occur gradually. Do we try and keep our swinging activity secret from our kids? Yes.... not because we are ashamed, but because we don't want them to inadvertantly say something to others in our family who may not be understanding.

So yes swingers please do come out. But unfortunately this couple will not be leading the pack.

Bill

[Chicup]

1. It would be nice, but not nice enough for me to go on a march. I'm not sure what would be gained. Bonus rates on quadruple occupancy hotelrooms?

2. No its not an accurate comparison. Two married couples out for a night on the town, and dancing with each others partners won't raise an eyebrow. Try that with 2 men My lifestyle wouldn't change if swinging became main stream. Hell it could be a bad thing if swinging became the norm, we have a lot of friends who we like to hang out with but wouldn't want to swing with. Just think if they all asked

[NightGoddess]

Um, first to be historically accurate, Victorians were swingers!
It's a myth that they were prim and proper.
What happened behind closed doors was considered private, and not something the public had any need to know.
Currently, and I mean today-- how else can any of us share openly here unless we do so anonymously?
If anyone here has read the biography of Winston Churchills' mother, Lady Randolph Churchill (who was an American) you will know what I mean. Look up her biography, Jennie:the life of Lady Randolph Churchill [her maiden name was Jeannette Jerome] by Ralph G. Martin. Make sure you check the notes at the back of the book. Most of the material about who-did-who was discovered from private journals.
The Victorian generation swung hard-core!
I admire them for having the good sense, class, and savvy to keep it all under wraps. It assured their complete privacy and freedom to do whatever consenting adults wanted to do without the censure of public opinion.
It's so much easier to read about these folks now that their children and grandchildren are long gone. If they had 'come out' while still alive, we'd still be hearing about it.
Keeping personal decisions like this private seems in my opinion, not only smart, but necessary.
I don't expect the world to change it's opinion of me because of my sexual activities...but on the other hand, why give the public a picture window on my life? The public doesn't have a right to know, and I have a right to pursue a lifestyle that suits me -- in privacy.
---Are we so needy of approval that everyone must validate and agree with everything we do?
Why invite judgment, ridicule, harrassment, and all the rest of it if it isn't necessary?
I honestly don't see how 'coming out' will benefit any without hurting most.

Thanks for listening

[naughty A]

Do I think swingers should come out of the closet... Not necessarily... if you want to come out about it... fine ... but there should not be any pressure to do so.

above all that they shouldn't be forcefully "outed" as happened for some gay people... which was part of the history of the gay community (not that anyone is suggesting this for swingers)

but I do think it is gradually becoming more and more acceptable and main stream.

threesomes and swinging are receiving a fair bit of media air play... granted the point is for titilating and entertaining television ... but it is still putting the idea out there.

... I don't think the time that it will be openly acceptable is that far off...... it will become just one of those mildly kinky pastimes that interest some people... like handcuffs or foot fetish or water sports ...

[ratimadan]

Should swingers come out of the closet? No, we do not believe that is necessary or even desirable. Ours, particularly the American society is very prudish. and is not ready to accept the reality of two couples may swap partners for consensual sexual intercourse. It does, however, to some extent condone and accept adultery-witness large percentage of both men and women (stats say 60%) who engage in extramarital sex without the spouse's knowledge or consent.

Like someone commented, the media uses sexually suggestive shows to sell merchandise. They may shows that show swinging for titillation and make the allmighty dollar on which their livelyhood (and big bucks for owners/executives) depends. We do not need media or society approval to enjoy sexual variety and fulfillment that swinging lifestyle provides.

Again, swinging is losing the stigma imposed by the society and for sure gaining acceptance slowly. We swingers are the elite and pathbreakers. Let us keep it that way and enjoy our sensuality and the thrill that connecting with varied sexual partners brings to our lives.

r&m

[Chris&Amelia]

Ummm.... no.

Both the wife and I work in very "professional" occupations where appearance is important. It would make our professional occupations much more difficult if we "came out of the closet" and made it general knowledge that we are swingers.

[Mary&Bill]

I don't really think that it is that important for swingers as a community to "come out". After all sex on any level is generally a private act.

I think its more important that we can congregate together, whether it be an on-premise club or a house party without the fear of local government intervention.

[wrnakedru]

Originally posted by BradAndJanet
Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

In response to Part 1: I see nothing to be gained and a hell of lot at risk from a public, repeated proclamation. Prior to our entry into the lifestyle, we did not post a sign in a front yard proclaiming our fondness for oral sex. It is [ludicrously] against the law in our state and many other states. It too, like swinging is a victimless crime and I imagine it became a law from the intent of legislators to restrict homosexual activity, never dreaming of the future popularity for heterosexuals. Regardless, no one is attempting to prevent us from having oral sex with one another, so the law is nothing we campaign to have changed.

The kinder view of swinging from society in general is that it is incomprehensible, strange, and maybe a bit disgusting. The stronger view [and the more often and loudly proclaimed] is that it is reprehensible and dangerously threatening to the community's moral standards.

The danger of public proclamation, be it to family, friends, neighbors or employers is that it will to some degree alter the prior relationship. Some few may accept, but not with comprehension - since it is not their choice. It is yours. Those few would simply be acknowledging your right to that choice. Some would end whatever their relationship with you may be. It is unfortunately liable to be the employer - who will, of course, find another reason.

I believe one of the very real possible dangers is that society in general [and local law in particular] could question the welfare of the children living in the home of swingers. It is certainly within the realm of possibility to recognize that an investigation could result in a legal battle to retain custody. It is childishly naive not to recognize that such a thing absolutely could happen.

We have found no impedients to pursuing our lifestyle interests as a private part of our lives. I cannot ascertain a logical rational reason for our private lives to become public knowledge any more now than we have ever felt there was.

Part 2: I do not believe the comparison with homosexuals coming out is an accurate comparison. I feel that a homosexual is born with that particular sexual identity. It is as much a part of their identity as their fingerprints.

Swinging is a CHOICE of activity - not a sexual identity. As many can attest, there is an extensive thought process necessary to arrive at the choice. Some come to it easier than others who find they must learn a "new way" of looking at traditionally held values of behavior. But it is a conscious choice, never the less. And part of the thought process is the mature acceptance that it is diametrically opposed to traditional societal standards. The choice is made individually - by that person, for that person.

Gays have had legal obstacles to overcome to be granted the rights most swingers have as a matter of course. Same sex partners do not have the legal responsiblities for each other that traditional partners do. Lifemates have been prevented from inheriting from one another. There are only a handful of companies that recognize same sex alliances and offer benefit coverage for a same sex partner.

Texas is a "community property" state for husbands and wives. Each of you owns equally, each of you owes equally, without further court time being required to determine such. There is not a long drawn out probate procedure when one half of the couple passes away.

Same sex life mates do not automatically or otherwise own or owe or inherit unless legal documents have been drawn to provide for such.

All of these rights and many more were very real reasons for "gay rights" movements and the "coming out" in larger and larger numbers so that it would be recognized this was no small group of people who were being discriminated against.

There is no similarity or impediment for swingers. No lack of rights as partners. No extraneous legal documentation to establish the validity of the relationship between partners.

Again, nothing to be gained. No rational logical reason to "come out".

Part 3: N/A

Side note: Thanks for a thought provoking thread, Brad. You took what could have been another mud-slinging battle and turned into an avenue for expressing opinions.

The above are just that - my opinions.

[windsor4fun2]

Originally posted by wrnakedru
In response to Part 1: ........

.....................opinions.

The above are just that - my opinions.

Excellent post, especially Part 2. I had never thought of it in those terms.

Jesse

[Greg & Sheryl]

1. As nice as it would be for the swinging lifestyle to exist within the mainstream, we don't feel that anyone (swinger or non-swinger) should feel obligated to share his or her personal life with the rest of the world. Many swingers have very legitimate reasons for maintaining low profiles, so they should be entitled to keep their lifestyle private. Personally, we aren't ashamed of our status as swingers so we are willing to admit it to anyone who asks. However, because we know that many mainstream Americans look negatively toward swinging, we don't wear our lifestyle on our sleeves.

2. Swingers and homosexuals do share the dishonor of being persecuted for their sexual practices. However, the two groups have one glaring difference. For most swingers, swinging is just a part time recreational activity that has no bearing on the rest of their lives. Homosexuals, however, exist in their condition for their entire lives. Like swingers, homosexuals should never feel obligated to "come out," but they do have far more to gain in their attempt to achieve mainstream acceptance.

[yawanna]

It's not safe to 'come out' as a swinger.. not while others in this 'community' feel little or no compunction to 'outting' someone if they choose to.

I DO compare declaring myself a swinger to all and sundry as similar to a gay person doing the same. it's frowned upon, many people, including self proclaimed swingers, don't 'get it'. That for some it's a lifestyle.

Plus.. I hate parades

[bill&sabrina]

Wow!!! Some of my faith in Swingers being open minded is returning. My reasons for wanting Swingers to fight for the right to do what we do is for discouraging possible future discrimination. I think that right now during our "War on Terror" we need to be especially diligent to not be accused of being threats to national security. We have had government funded witch hunts in this country before, and will again. McCarthyism comes to mind. Given the anti-sex attitude of our current Attorney General, and some new weapons with which to assualt civil rights (Patriot Act) we could be targets of a new age of McCarthyism. Maybe not individuals who post here, but webmasters such as Julie could find themselves in the crosshairs. If though the goverment wanted to single out an individual that posts here it wouldn't be hard because of IP addresses. For those of you that do not know what an IP address is think of it this way. The mailman has your street address to find you house. Your IP address gives the location of the computer that sent anything broadcast over the web. Each and every post on this board has info leading to the computer it was sent from. There are ways around this happening, but how many of us have skills to do it? People who engage in "deviant" activies as most of us agree are looked at suspiciously. I don't wear a "Tin Hat" McCarthyism did exist, and we should remember it lest we become victims of it.

Originally posted by wrnakedru

Prior to our entry into the lifestyle, we did not post a sign in a front yard proclaiming our fondness for oral sex.

See my above lesson on IP addresses to realize you just put a sign in your cyberspace front yard. I knew of this long before I came across this board, and made the choice to do so anyway.

Bill

[BradAndJanet]

Originally posted by wrnakedru
...Side note: Thanks for a thought provoking thread, Brad. You took what could have been another mud-slinging battle and turned into an avenue for expressing opinions.
...

Thank you! I believe that is one of my jobs as a moderator.

I'm overwhelmed with the thought and time y'all have put into your answers. Here are mine:

1) In general, I think it's a bad idea for us to be too "in your face" about our activities. As so many have pointed out, society (and I speak of American society here) as a whole generally frowns upon swinging as something only 'freaks' do (and I wear that label proudly ), and some people would be downright hostile to us, try to get us fired, take our children away and ruin our lives.

But, I know what Bill is getting at here, and I support his basic idea that we would be better off if (and it's a big if!) society would view us a little more benignly. However, change will only come slowly, in small steps and I think that we must be careful not to provoke a backlash against us.

The biggest advantage I see is that if swinging became more mainstream and accepted by most of society, we would not have to fear that backlash. If more people understood what we do and why we do it, I believe we would see more tolerance for our lifestyle. It would also make finding swing partners a bit easier if people could more freely speak about it.

2) There are some parallels I see between our situations. We both risk embarassment or worse trouble because of our sex lives. However, the biggest difference I see, as someone has pointed out, is that the reward for the risk is much greater for homosexuals. We can go out and be with our swinger friends, have a good time and be affectionate with them without raising an eyebrow.

Homosexuals have a much more difficult time just living their lives when 'closeted'. Their sexual orientation is a bigger part of who they are than being a swinger is to us. So, they're willing to take the risk and 'come out' because the reward of being able to live openly with their partner of choice is well worth it. Many swingers do not feel the rewards are as great for us.

3) I feel that effective strategies are those that are small steps, not big, bold ones. Y'all are doing something good simply by posting your thoughts here. I'm sure that there have been curious guests who have wandered in here and have gone away impressed by the depth of thought that goes into swinging.

Some of us might be able to subtly talk to our 'straight' friends when the subject come up. I did this the other night by talking about the Nip and Tuck episode I watched, expressing my opinion and asking what others thought. I didn't 'out' myself, but was able to perhaps give people something to think about.

As clubgoers, and particularly as club owners, we can help to make sure we're never viewed as 'troublemakers' in the community by adhering to local laws and being sensitive to local mores. And, we can try to get those local laws changed, where possible.

Finally, I wanted to respond to what Bill said about IP addresses. Yes, in theory, you can be identified by your IP. That's how the RIAA knew who to sue recently. But, it took a lot of doing and involved courts and subpeonas. Although we should always be vigilant, we're a long way from having to worry that we'll be targeted for simply talking about swinging. The judiciary still understands the 1st Amendment, and no judge is going to issue a subpeona to Julie in order to get our IP adresses. I'm not at all worried about that, at least today...

-B