Swinger Writes in defense of Ron Jeremy

[Cpl2share]

Although it will often seem like it, I am not flaming anyone. Hold your own opinions and beliefs. I am not making my statements to hurt people, simply stating historical facts.
As christianity began to grow in popularity, the church "elders" found that they needed a way to control the masses. One of the ways to do this was through sexuality. By regulating the sexual conduct of people the church could eliminate the "hedonistic" religions. By vilifying sexual conduct the church was able to further convince people that they would go to "hell" and NEEDED the church to save them from eternal torment. As the US and UK are both very much geared toward the judeo-christian religion, these morals and mores have been indoctrinated into our society. Children are (in virtually every civilized society) to be protected form all harm. Exposure of young children to sexual activity in any form can be and usually is very traumatic. Therefor, by using the possible trauma to children as a "real" threat to them, the narrow minded are able to justify the prejudicial and religious stance that they take. For those parents who have been open and honest with their children about sexuality (and everything else for that matter) there will come a time when it is appropriate or okay to discuss the lifestyle. The children are already prepared by knowing that sex is not dirty (unless you do it right LOL) and that it is a healthy and normal act to be enjoyed by consenting adults.

[des1re06]

I was a "goody two shoes/computer geek" just three years ago, so there's hope yet.

Loved your insightful replys, and I would do the same and stand up for the LS just as you did. While there are a few naysayers, you never will know how many you helped by pointing them in the right direction (here) so they can get better information.

Mrs. D

[graygo98]

You are certainly not an ass, dear lady. You are far too articulate and intelligent for that.

I was almost sorry for putting the "bait" in front of you. Almost, that is, until I read your letter to Mr K. Shock and awe! Beautifully argued.... had me persuaded in any case although I am a bit biased.

Your contribution was enough to shame me into making my own effort under the name A.N. Other. Not as elegant, but we must keep the fire stoked!

[gatorvol64]

Intuition, you can "shoot your mouth off" anytime. I always enjoy reading your posts. They are so well written and thought out. You express your thoughts so eloquently. You did a great job this time as well. I admire the fact that you still try when it is obvious most will never get the concept. But, as well as you express yourself, I feel that you at least make a few stop and think. And that is a good thing. I'll listen to you any day.

Vol

[flkeyscouple]

Originally Posted by gatorvol64

Intuition, you can "shoot your mouth off" anytime. I always enjoy reading your posts. They are so well written and thought out. You express your thoughts so eloquently. You did a great job this time as well. I admire the fact that you still try when it is obvious most will never get the concept. But, as well as you express yourself, I feel that you at least make a few stop and think. And that is a good thing. I'll listen to you any day.

Vol

Intuition... Vol said it well. I'll listen to you any day too!
Sarah

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by prettylady

Why are kids always brought into this mix. When I was in a vanilla relationship with my husband my kids had no knowledge of my sex life.(or lack there of) So why do they think as swingers our sex life is going to influence the kids? How is what we are doing corupting the communitte. We are accepting of homosexuals as good parents, their sex lives up until recently was deemed wrong and yet, wow look at what great parents they can make. Our sex lives are not doing any harm to the kids. I see kids come from homes that have an unhealthy enviroment. Yet there is no outward attack on these people. Kids going to school without breakfast, or a good lunch, or even an extra hug and kiss. Yet we give a collective ahhhh, they are the unfortunate of society, we need to understand their situation. BS, I am a single mom, in school full time, and raising my little ones on a student loan. My kids are well fed, kissed and hugged to death, I help them with homework, teach them karate, read to them before bed, I have snacks and treats, both healthy and yummy.
All of this good I do for my kids, and I am looked down upon because of the time I take for myself as an adult.
Piss on you all out there who are clueless.
Rant completed
Your friend,
Prettylady

BRA-VO PrettyLady!! You kick ass on screen AND off!

Wow, if I ever need a quick ego-stroke, I guess I should bookmark this thread, eh? I've checked the thread again, and your responses are sharp and to the point. A bit like a thumbtack nailing a squirming worm to a bulletin board. Nowhere to go, nowhere left to point fingers. Here's the facts, ma'am/sir. So...you were saying??

[MoonLightKiss]

Intuition, you are NOT, I repeat, NOT an ass. And if you feel the need to shoot your mouth off, your words not mine, ( I would have went with "you are giving food for thought) then do so anytime. I always enjoy reading your posts as they are very well thought out, informative, and thought provoking. People pay thousands of dollars to colleges to get the same thing. I enjoy coming here to get it free.

prettylady, I am with you on this one. Why oh why bring kids into it. Those comments like "if you can't tell your children, it must be wrong." Mmm-kay. Just wanna look at them and say "So, your five year old is aware of what sex is, the consequences, and the details of your sex life such as you like leather, feathers, 9" dildos, and to top it off they also know what positions are best between you and your husband and exactly which groans mean 'I'm Cumming." Of course we don't share our sex lives with our children, just like they don't. It doesn't make the act evil though. And you are right, there are so many kids out there with "vanilla" parents not getting enough love, support, hugs, kisses, help with homework, food, cleanliness, and attention but that is waved off as "oh well". Burns my ass it does.

How ironic that a cheating husband or wife gets divorced and the worst you hear is "Gee, ya shouldn't have done that. Now you gotta pay alimony and child support. Meanwhile, when do you get the kids next?" But you mention happily married swingers and its almost like you can hear "Burn the witch!!" bouncing off the walls.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by MoonLightKiss

Intuition, you are NOT, I repeat, NOT an ass. And if you feel the need to shoot your mouth off, your words not mine, ( I would have went with "you are giving food for thought) then do so anytime. I always enjoy reading your posts as they are very well thought out, informative, and thought provoking. People pay thousands of dollars to colleges to get the same thing. I enjoy coming here to get it free.

prettylady, I am with you on this one. Why oh why bring kids into it. Those comments like "if you can't tell your children, it must be wrong." Mmm-kay. Just wanna look at them and say "So, your five year old is aware of what sex is, the consequences, and the details of your sex life such as you like leather, feathers, 9" dildos, and to top it off they also know what positions are best between you and your husband and exactly which groans mean 'I'm Cumming." Of course we don't share our sex lives with our children, just like they don't. It doesn't make the act evil though. And you are right, there are so many kids out there with "vanilla" parents not getting enough love, support, hugs, kisses, help with homework, food, cleanliness, and attention but that is waved off as "oh well". Burns my ass it does.

How ironic that a cheating husband or wife gets divorced and the worst you hear is "Gee, ya shouldn't have done that. Now you gotta pay alimony and child support. Meanwhile, when do you get the kids next?" But you mention happily married swingers and its almost like you can hear "Burn the witch!!" bouncing off the walls.

Yeah the ridiculousness of it chaps my ass, too. It really does have overtones of a witch-hunt, doesn't it? In my opinion, this kind of puritanical paranoia should be considered a sickness. They say the same thing about us, but most of us have been where they are at some point. I was just like them once. I used to have the same confusion about love and sex and the same fairy-tale notions about marriage. If Mr. intuition loved me "enough" (meaning if I was "good enough" to deserve this kind of love), that would mean he would be so hypnotized by me that he wouldn't be capable of even thinking of another woman. This puts the fairy-tale-believer at a permanent disadvantage, never being "good enough" to have earned this unattainable state of devotion from his or her mate. Why unattainable? Because it is a simple fact of our humanity: wearing a wedding ring and dearly loving our spouse does not keep us from feeling sexual chemistry with other people. It's just bloody human nature! It's normal. It's natural and not evil. They wanna quote the Bible? Well here we go:
Romans 14:14-23
Now the weak-minds out there will try to pick this apart out of context, for example saying it's not applicable because it's about food, or warping the fundamental message of it to suit their beliefs. That fundamental message simply being that the earthly, bodily, ephemeral things that we argue about here - sex included - are not what God considers important. What matters is good will towards one another, love, and mutual support, understanding, tolerance...living an other-centred life. It also says that [nothing] is unclean of itself, but it is what we believe about a thing that makes it so. So for those who believe that swinging is wrong, yet they give in to their curiosity about it against their better judgment, they are doing something wrong. For those of us who do not believe it is wrong and is something that enhances the things mentioned above, then for us it is not wrong. But upon reflection, I wonder if by my arguments I am causing confusion where I mean to offer a valid argument. That's the "stumbling block". Then again, I'm not supposed to let others speak badly about the things that I consider good. I dunno...I'm a little confused on that point.


Why are people so afraid of truth?

[cubnamy1995]

I guess this is one of my biggest pet peeves. There a lot of people who go through their entire lives like sheep, never thinking on their own. They just regurgitate whatever a few hateful people lead them to believe. This is very true of sex, but is also true of politics, religion, child-rearing, etc.

I have a question for the group. Why is it so evil to raise children with a positive view of sex? I mean come on...of course we're not going to have sex in front of our kids, but we don't try to necessarily hide our sexuality. I have three boys, and I would rather have them grow up learning to respect women and understand what sex is all about, instead of teaching them sex is bad, and have them learn about it from television or Penthouse Forum....

All of these vanilla folks think we are going to scar our children because we choose to have sex in a more open way. Why? Would my boys not have an easier life if they learned that you don't have to hurt women to enjoy sex? Can't I teach them that sex is fun, and you should not only enjoy it, but also make sure the woman (or women ) enjoy it too?

My 8 year old, out of the blue, came up and asked me the other day, "Dad, when I get married, can I have a girlfriend too?" I told him, "If you can work that out with your wife baby, then why not." You know what? I don't feel one bit bad for telling him that either.

I know that we won't convince anyone of anything who doesn't want to listen. But at the same token, I, like most of us on here, are tired of taking this s*&t from everyone. I applaud Intuition, and let me say that this life is a short one. You can either spend it fighting for what you believe in, or you can be one of the sheep who strolls through life completely numb and devoid of any personality.

Sorry to be so long. This just hit a nerve...

[sereneiders]

Intuition,

I understand your need to "educate" people. I'd add my own reply if it weren't having to register.

Did you notice no one of the guys beating us took the time to come to this forum and read around? They don't bother, they just want to find out a way to make their own arguments stand.

I like the "sexual addiction" comment. As far as I know, right now you're not activelly participating in the lifestyle, and you didn't point out this, which is far from an adictive behaviour.

Also, in those sort of discussions it'd be worth to point out (and invite people to take a look at the board to get the proof), the amount of times we, swingers, advice curious people AGAINST swinging and the effort we put in warning people about the unwanted consecuences they may face and the risk for their relationships. We trend to advice against swinging as soon as we find out the lesser of the red flags.

This not only isn't a "propaganda" or "converting people" attitude, but a reflection of most swingers high moral standards, our care for other people (even those we don't know), and contribution to our society health.

Perhaps it'd be interesting to make some statistics on the sort of advices we provide to curious people (singles, couples where one wants to swing against the other desires, and couples where both want to swing), ranging as "go for it", "beware", and "don't even try". I guess it'd be an interesting chart to publish in the forum, and to adress uninformed people to take a look.

Also, they doesn't know of our attitude towars cheaters wanting to play with us, as to claim we undermine the family values. Well, for this we don't require a chart.

Anyway, I appreciate and thanks you for your effort!

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

Also, in those sort of discussions it'd be worth to point out (and invite people to take a look at the board to get the proof), the amount of times we, swingers, advice curious people AGAINST swinging and the effort we put in warning people about the unwanted consecuences they may face and the risk for their relationships. We trend to advice against swinging as soon as we find out the lesser of the red flags.

This not only isn't a "propaganda" or "converting people" attitude, but a reflection of most swingers high moral standards, our care for other people (even those we don't know), and contribution to our society health.

Excellent point, Sereneiders. How much more proof do they need? I just don't understand how they can justify their warped rationalizations in their own minds in light of the arguments that were made in that thread. Everything they said was shot down without hesitation with nothing but the honest to God truth.

[MoonLightKiss]

Originally Posted by intuition897

Why are people so afraid of truth?

This is the best and probably most enlightening question if some of these people would take the time to think it out and answer it honestly. What are people so afraid of? I know I won't put this as eloquently as many here, but here goes...

If you go through your whole life believing the sky is blue, and everyone around you says the sky is blue, then when you look up, guess what. The sky is going to be blue. But what if, suddenly one day, you get up and you are completely enlightened to the actual truth. You look up and you see the sky, but instead of blue it is red. Would your whole world, your entire foundation be shaken, possibly even crumbled? You have just been awakened to find out your entire basis of belief was a lie. Your parents, your friends, your family, your pastor/spiritual leader, strangers on the street, they have all been lying to you your whole life. For those that are open minded enough to absorb this event in stride, and those strong enough to accept it and rebuild, this event might not seem so catastrophic. But so many people are raised to wear blinders, and they wear them so well, they do not even know they wear them anymore. So for those, an event of this magnitude would crumble their foundations. Their fear is not the truth, but their fear is that they will not be able to rebuild their foundations. They fear the unknown. They are so scared of it, that instead of seeing a red sky, they see the red as blue anyway.

And of course there is always the other alternative. They could just all be pricks who believe, My way is right, all others are wrong. My daddy is bigger than your daddy blah blah blah BS.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by intuition897

How much more proof do they need? I just don't understand how they can justify their warped rationalizations in their own minds in light of the arguments that were made in that thread. Everything they said was shot down without hesitation with nothing but the honest to God truth.

For some guys, there won't be enough "proofs" able to make their change their minds. For other guys, whatever "proof" we may bring would be deemed as biased and deprived for it value. What's a "proof" for us isn't necesarily a proof for others, and there's no way to transmit the empirical experience we already had inside the lifestyle.

Nevertheless, only passionate people cares to post answers in this sort of discussions, thus, either guys passionate about the lifestyle or guys passionate against it would be the only posters, and hardly any of them will be able to change the other's point of view.

This is very frustrating (for both sides, I am affraid), however, we should take into account the huge majority of people who's reading even when they doesn't post. A lot of them would be able to compare arguments and see which ones holds water.

So, you may not notice at a first glance, the controversy sow by the ones passionate against the lifestyle may lead us to believe the posters are representative of the entire population of readers, however, this isn't necesarily true.

Having your words posted there is something valuable enough, because it silently would allow more and more people to undesrtand what this is about.

So, don't let you down because of the narrowed minded passionated guys, inthead think of the rest of the guys who, thanks to you, had the chance to compare both sides perspective.

[robel12550]

Forgive my not reading ALL the postings here (time is an enemy), but I did read the National Post item you wrote and some of their replies.

Basically, it looks like you're dealing with the same mentality that got John Lennon of the Beatles in trouble several times. A statement that the Beatles were probably more popular than God or Jesus Christ (can't remember exactly which now) was misconstrued to that they were "better than God". (?) He was relatively a young kid making the observation that they were so popular that you'd have to be a hermit on an island like the Tom Hanks' movie not to have known what they were about. Then he opened the flood gates with his song "Imagine". Imagine there's no religion was again misconstrued as being anti-spiritual. If more people had thought on what the real message was there, would we be in trouble in the Middle East (and the rest of the globe) now with the perceived religions wars? (The answer of course is still "Yes" since human nature, as it is, people that want to will still find some excuse to cause problems.)

The problem with the Internet is that it doesn't read minds and count the "hits". It can't tell how many people read the postings and internally said "Good for Intuition". It can only transmit the messages of those who decide to write out for whatever reason. So we'll never know really how many people believe you or not and truly understand what you wrote.

The more I see, the more I'm left with this thought on how information is perceived: either you believe something or not. Things I've been taught are nowadays being unravelled and I'm not certain yet whether it's that we're more knowledgeable "now" then "then" or that Orwell was just off by a couple years. I was taught that brain cells never grow after a certain period in a human's life and now they're saying that they've found evidence of development of new brain cells in mature people. Alcohol consumption was considered "bad" yet now they say that moderate drinking can actually be beneficial! And I'm really confused about Pluto no longer being a "planet". The concept of "fact" to me was effectively a none moving (possibly none changing) "truth". Apparently my concept must be readjusted.

The interesting about the "swinging" community in general is it seems to be a group of free thinkers that don't buy into the control aspect of the general "society". Even without the sexual aspect in the formula, that's very attractive to me. And to clarify, the "free" part isn't a total, undisciplined freedom, but one set with somewhat specific values ("cheating is not swinging", "enhancement to existing relationship and not a replacement", etc.) loosely governed by relatively "elders" (those with more experience) who pass on bits of collective wisdom of the lifestyle through forum postings like this.

For your own blood pressure sake though Intuition, you might want to just keep your postings to the "swingers" groups. As usual, here's my "keep up the good work!"

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by MoonLightKiss

You have just been awakened to find out your entire basis of belief was a lie. Your parents, your friends, your family, your pastor/spiritual leader, strangers on the street, they have all been lying to you your whole life. For those that are open minded enough to absorb this event in stride, and those strong enough to accept it and rebuild, this event might not seem so catastrophic. But so many people are raised to wear blinders, and they wear them so well, they do not even know they wear them anymore.

I was thinking this very thing on the drive home from work today. The lie is so fundamental to everything this culture is based on - and it is heavily based on the love-hate relationship we have with sex - and it has blinded them for so long, it has simply become the truth. It IS truth because they want it to be.

Blinders. Very good analogy. If you've worn them all your life, you start believe that it is wrong and unnatural to see anything beyond that narrow scope. That nothing good can come from looking beyond the tunnel vision.

I think the saddest thing about this "awakening" is not being blissfully ignorant anymore. Not of the truth about love and sex...blissfully ignorant of the other people who are stumbling through life believing the same bullshit. Being fed bullshit, being told it tastes good, and having to look at their grins as they tell you how utterly delicious this big ole' cow pie really is...and then they get mad at you for telling them that they're actually eating shit. It's very sad.