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Ethics & Religion Talk Panel on Whether Swinging is Adultery

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Looking through the comments below, the Rabbi replied, and seemed to have the most sensible response. Basically he said that if you view marriage as a religious contract, then yes, it is wrong. If you view marriage as a secular contract, then you have the right to amend it to how you see fit, as long as no party is injured. I can appreciate that.

 

I am an atheist, so it's no skin off my back and you can believe what you want, but, I think a lot of hoops have to be jumped through in order to "justify" swinging in a religious context.

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Thats always been my take on it too, I understand the hoop jumping, I just find my legs would get tired.

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Heck.. From my point of view its just mind control to say that the natural sexual feelings I have are the work of the devil. When I was going to grade school I knew I was headed for hell. I coveted other peoples cool stuff. I did not honor my parents all the time and as I aged porn came into my life and was ashamed that I masturbated. It took a few years for me to recover from that belief set. Hell that shit just drives young men and women crazy. Even in the bible men had several wives. Live and let live.. sex is good and so are we.

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Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife.

 

Covet: to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others.

 

If we all agree desiring is ok, and we respect others, seems like we don't violate the covet rule.

 

Thou shall not commit adultery.

 

Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

 

Hmmmm, this is harder. Translation, context, regional interpretation...

 

Nope, I got nothing.

 

The Rabbi got it right.

 

...happily buries head back in sand...

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Well, My sexy wife and I are Christians and to us, "in our opinion" the charge to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU WOULD YOURSELF is pretty clear to us! Now cheating or fucking your neighbor behind their or your own spouses back! Thats adultery "in our opinion".

Apostle Paul in Corinthians clearly told the swingers in Corinth to stop with the "orgy parties " . But Paul also encouraged Christians not to get married, have children, or sexual activity of any kind. He felt the end of it all was coming ASAP. We disagree with Paul.

What if the world would look in a non-possessive way at everyone as a potential sex partner? Would there be any War ever again?

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Well no bias there:rolleyes:

 

Of course like all religious idiots they immediately refer to the bible as being "the truth". From my perspective there is no prohibition on swinging in Cinderella, or Snow White although one might imagine what she was doing living with 7 short but horny males. Apparently Alice's Wonderland didn't prohibit it (perhaps we should all move there). The ant was too busy working while the grasshopper partied. Now there might have been a sympathetic soul! Bambi was more worried about getting his ass blown off and Faline well we never did find out what her real history was. And then there was Beauty and the Beast along with Goldilocks (just love blondes) and her three Bears. Could there be rumours of bestiality? Certainly the caterers weren't up to snuff!

 

Frankly the world is filled with Fairy Tales but to make one the foundation of your life....beyond pathetic. Especially when it contains murder, rape, incest, wars, & massive killing all in the name of a first century apocalyptic preacher who had no concept of a resurrection, heaven or hell and believed that God was going to destroy evil and come and reside on earth within his lifetime. Everything else you've heard or read is the various churches re-writing history and the Bible to favour their own viewpoint and need for power over the masses.

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I think really we have two issues here. While being an atheist means I don't see any supernatural truth to the bible, the question here, as the rabbi pointed out, about being true to their religion.

 

Being Christians need to pick and choose who they listen to in the bible in order to say its not adultery, I'd side with the panel, from a religious standpoint it is adultery. These are the hoops two4 was talking about.

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from a religious standpoint it is adultery.

 

As defined by???? That is really the crux of the matter. Some believe you don't get to define things for yourself, only others have that authority, since only they have been given the secret password to the "truth". The others I am referring to can range from one of the ministers quoted in the article, all the way back through the centuries to whatever lucky writers managed to get their piece in the final manuscript, and not on the editor's spike. On the other hand, some people who are believers reject the idea that only a certain few can define truth, and are comfortable with the idea that they can determine what truth means for them.

 

The secret password holders will say -

 

NO, you can't do that!

Why?

Because we said so.

Say it all you want, doesn't change anything to me. Just because you proclaim to make the rules doesn't mean that you do.

 

I can see where one can self-identify as religious, and still not have a problem. Perhaps not the majority who buy into the authority of others to make the rules, which I will agree is certainly a cornerstone of organized religion, but there are always going to be people who are walking the same path, just out of step with the others.

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4 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh,[a] arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

 

Its like he was at our last swinger party :rollseye:

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As defined by????

 

As defined by whatever religious group one chooses to follow: Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran (the list of "mainstream Christian" religions goes on), Mormon and other Christian offshoots, Judaism (which varies by Rabbi and sect), Muslim (including the various warring factions, Sunni, Shia, Bahi), Buddhism, and on and on. I'm sure I am missing many.

 

I don't see this as an issue of who is right, who has a monopoly on the truth, etc., or, as some have put it, who believe in fairy tails. Many people choose to affiliate themselves with a religion. That is their choice.

 

However, IMO, if you subscribe to one of these religions, you have to deal with how they see/teach things, find a new religion, become independently spiritual, or drop faith altogether. You may not agree with all of the teachings of the group you choose to follow, but you have to either deal with or ignore them. I think for the most part, religious scholars would say most religions frown on swinging. For many that swing, this creates a conflict that they need to personally reconcile or ignore, just like Catholics on birth control (thank god), Jews who don't keep kosher (I mean really, who doesn't like bacon), and Baptists who drink and dance (can I get a whoop whoop).

 

Personally, if you are hot and swing, I don't care what religion you are or are not...as long as we don't talk about it. ;-)

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Pretty much what I was trying to say, you just did it much better :)

 

I don't think it is impossible for some people to be part of the group while personally reconciling or ignoring the parts they don't like. As you point out, not hard to think of examples of that. Picking what you like and ignoring what you don't is the norm rather than the exception, us humans excel in that department. Swinging is not different from any of the others. When the powers that be proclaim you can't be a member in good standing of their particular club and use birth control, and your response is a "yeah, whatever, think we'll decide that for ourselves", it's no different.

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Personally, if you are hot and swing, I don't care what religion you are or are not...as long as we don't talk about it. ;-)

 

Can I get an, um, "Amen"?

 

:)

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I am what I like to call an eclectic Christian, meaning I trust the heart that God gave me as the only reliable compass I have here on the fabulous wretched planet, I employ the reason I was born with and try to find a meeting place in the middle. I search for love and truth (often the same thing), wherever I might find it, and I don't trust people to tell me what either love or truth are supposed to look like. That's what my heart is for. People really suck sometimes, and they're stupid, too (myself included). I'm not trusting the well-being of my soul to the whims of idiots.

 

I have very little time for organized religion. From what I understand, neither did J.C. It's all I can do to keep from rolling my eyes during wedding and funeral ceremonies, the only times I go to church anymore.

 

I have NO problem whatsoever reconciling my faith and my inclination toward non-monogamy. On that account, God can search my heart all He wants and He'll find it light as a feather. I recommend reading Romans 14. Its subject is food, but food and sex are two appetites that parallel one another pretty closely. As far as I'm concerned, the concepts therein apply to both. The problem is not the activity itself, but the meaning it holds. The problem exists for some, but not for others. The simplistic definition of adultery in one of the above posts - which I'm assuming was quoted from somewhere else - is both part of the problem, and an indicator that it is a subject that was not well understood by the one who came up with such a definition.

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Hi intuition..

Yep I agree with you. The problem of reconciling swinging with adultery is a problem for some but not for others and if someone feels in there heart its wrong for them then I believe it is wrong for them. I like your statement about searching your heart. For us its not a problem for the very reasons you stated.

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Of course, the answer depends entirely on your religion... asking three Protestant Christians and a Rabbi, you're going to get a certain rather predictable response. However, these are far from the only options available on the diverse religious buffet line. :) As a Neo-Pagan, my religious ethics have no objection to consensual sex with someone other than my spouse. Monogamy was not part of our marriage vows and, in the proper context, we consider sex to be a spiritual, even worshipful, act.

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Both my lady and I are Christians, and have discussed this quite a bit. I'll not speak for her, but this is what I've come to...

1. Faith is deeply personal, if it is real. Another person's faith is beyond my ability to see or judge, and so none of my business.

2. I (and everyone else) do plenty of wrong things every day, from being insensitive or greedy, to being vindictive or malicious. I have enough self restraint to rein in my behavior, but these emotions pop up on their own. I strive to be better, but also know that I'll always be limited by my humanity.

3. I have a very strong moral compass. Even when I choose to ignore it, it is speaking to me quite clearly. I choose to call this The Holy Spirit. Others may give it another name. The important part here is that what my lady and I do does not EVER set off that alarm. The same sense of right and wrong that will let me know that a sarcastic comment was wrong, doesn't even tingle when we're discussing sex with different people (or doing).

 

My conclusion from this is (and I freely admit to no being a scholar on the matter) that God is far more concerned with how we treat each other than the specific societal rules we follow or break. I think that any relationship based in honesty, respect and love is a positive thing for those in it and every part of the community they touch. Similarly, a couple that "follows all the rules" but live a life of petty jealousy and spite are a negative force in each others' lives and everyone they touch.

So, we will continue to do as we please and not feel guilty at all. We won't encourage others to follow our path, but rather to find their own. If we all concern ourselves with being the best we can for ourselves, we'll end up being the best neighbors and friends as well.

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We're only on this planet and go through this life once. What goes on in the bedroom stays normally between the husband and wife or "whom ever else is involved";-):-) and is really no one else's business

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Both my lady and I are Christians, and have discussed this quite a bit. I'll not speak for her, but this is what I've come to...

1. Faith is deeply personal, if it is real. Another person's faith is beyond my ability to see or judge, and so none of my business.

2. I (and everyone else) do plenty of wrong things every day, from being insensitive or greedy, to being vindictive or malicious. I have enough self restraint to rein in my behavior, but these emotions pop up on their own. I strive to be better, but also know that I'll always be limited by my humanity.

3. I have a very strong moral compass. Even when I choose to ignore it, it is speaking to me quite clearly. I choose to call this The Holy Spirit. Others may give it another name. The important part here is that what my lady and I do does not EVER set off that alarm. The same sense of right and wrong that will let me know that a sarcastic comment was wrong, doesn't even tingle when we're discussing sex with different people (or doing).

 

My conclusion from this is (and I freely admit to no being a scholar on the matter) that God is far more concerned with how we treat each other than the specific societal rules we follow or break. I think that any relationship based in honesty, respect and love is a positive thing for those in it and every part of the community they touch. Similarly, a couple that "follows all the rules" but live a life of petty jealousy and spite are a negative force in each others' lives and everyone they touch.

So, we will continue to do as we please and not feel guilty at all. We won't encourage others to follow our path, but rather to find their own. If we all concern ourselves with being the best we can for ourselves, we'll end up being the best neighbors and friends as well.

 

Fantastic way to put it! We believe the same.

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