Curious about negotiated infidelty/swinging

Hey all, This isn't 100% about swinging, but it seems very difficult to find an open place to discuss such a topic where I won't get the standard "He's a loser he shouldn't cheat!" answer. Here's the deal, I've been in a relationship with a man for the past 2 years and we live together. We are both very sexually open and adventurous. We met online and i have since discovered online relationships are a fetish of his. About 6 months ago he began to talk to a girl online and began to "cheat" on me if that's what you call it, I found him to be emotionally unfaithful i guess. I learned about it after about a week, and it lasted for about 2 months. Somehow my not leaving him and trying to be understanding and forgiving strengthen our relationship again and we fell in love all over again. There was a newness to our relationship again, but I was very hurt b/c i felt emotionally betrayed. Since then I've become more paranoid about his talking to her or someone else again, and he admits to me that he does like the thrill and the newness of talking to other people, but that he loves being with me. It would be much easier for me if he just wanted to swing b/c sex is just sex and that part doesn't really bother me. I understand a males animalistic urge and while it may not be 100% ideal to me as a female it seems ridiculous to try to demand fidelity when 60-70% of men ADMIT to cheating on their spouse. The thing that bothers me is what he calls his "games" in which he meets a girl online and starts an emotional relationship with them. He says he like the thrill and the newness of meeting someone for the first time, but to me it feels like an emotional betrayal. I love him and there are so many ways we are a like and I'm such an open and understanding person that I really want to try to accept this instead of lie to myself and say it won't happen again when it probably will. I would like to find a way to give him what he needs as well as finding a way to be happy with this. I asked him if there was an emotional or sexual need that I wasn't meeting, but he insists that it's not that, it's just the thrill of someone not knowing anything about him and him getting them to fall for him and once the newness wears off he gets bored and stops for months or even years at a time until he happens upon the urge again. Any one else feel this way or been in a relationship with someone who feels this way? I'd love suggestions for a way to make this work for me. I appreciate all your responses in advance

[sweet_tna]

If he's contacting these women without your knowledge and consent, then he is cheating. It's that simple. He knows you consider this an emotional betrayal, and yet he persists. There really isn't much more I can say except to keep talking to him about how you feel. If his behavior continues, then you'll have to decide whether this is something you can live with.

Best of luck to you.

[mlp]

I'm the author of this thread, and decided to go ahead and just create a profile.
I realize I left details out...

The reason he did it without my consent, at least from what he tells me is that he was afraid, obviously that I would be mad and upset, which i was at first, but then decided to be understanding. But what I acknowledge is that he is trying and WANTS to be open and honest. He doesn't WANT to sneak around behind my back and would prefer that he could share this info with me without me getting upset. He created a special night for me last night, showering, shaving, putting on special cologne, turning on romantic music, laying in bed and waiting for me to come home, he kissed and caressed me and talked about how he thinks the problem is we try to change each other and not accept each other for how and who we are, that I tell him too often how he's wrong for what he's doing, and that he likes flirting and he likes the thrill of first meeting a person and while he can try to control and tame it for me it makes him resentful and restless b/c he feels he can not be himself. For my part I'm trying to understand but i feel like he gets frustrated with me when I try to talk about it and ends up getting mad b/c i don't understand him. I am truly trying very hard, b/c to me if he wants to be with me and I want to be with him than this is just an issue that open communication can solve. I suppose I have to do the hardest thing for a female and remove my worry and fear. I am a naturally insecure person, and my bf becomes easily obsessed and infatuated with new relationships until he gets bored, so my worry and fear is that he will leave me if he becomes to emotionally involved, is there a way to set boundaries where he can fill his needs yet not go "too far"?

[PB&J]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

it's just the thrill of someone not knowing anything about him and him getting them to fall for him and once the newness wears off he gets bored and stops

So... even if you know and are aware that this is just a game for him, what about the girl at the other end? I'm sorry, but someone who is willing to use and hurt other people in his "game" doesn't sound like much of a catch to me.

[realcplub2]

Look, as human beings we all have the feelings he describes as the thrill, if its swinging, cheating or just dating and getting to the next level.

His excuses are just that excuses for his negative behavior. The key question is are you comfortable with the type of relationship he is evolving your current one into.

It would seem you are willing to turn a blind eye, and wait for the anonymous relationship that he perpetrates behind your back to end because of the "loving feeling" when he tries to make up.

Your statement about swinging raises another eyebrow, because the definition acceptable around here does not include "secret" relationships. Ideally, both memebrs of the couple, married or not, share all information and know where the other is, or what they are attempting to do, before it happens with PERMISSION from the absent person.

The whole concept of its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission is a great tag line for most places, but not in this lifestyle.

[mlp]

Originally Posted by realcplub2

Look, as human beings we all have the feelings he describes as the thrill, if its swinging, cheating or just dating and getting to the next level.

His excuses are just that excuses for his negative behavior. The key question is are you comfortable with the type of relationship he is evolving your current one into.

It would seem you are willing to turn a blind eye, and wait for the anonymous relationship that he perpetrates behind your back to end because of the "loving feeling" when he tries to make up.

Your statement about swinging raises another eyebrow, because the definition acceptable around here does not include "secret" relationships. Ideally, both members of the couple, married or not, share all information and know where the other is, or what they are attempting to do, before it happens with PERMISSION from the absent person.

The whole concept of its easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission is a great tag line for most places, but not in this lifestyle.

I think I did not make it clear that he does NOT want to keep it secretive from me, he only did that b/c of my anger and now wants to begin to share that with me. Not every little detail, but just make me aware of the situation. And I think it's important to point out that nothing is currently happening, we are just preparing for future circumstance b/c we don't want to come that close to losing our relationship again.

To the person who said something about "what about the other girl" this last girl was actually friends with me and KNEW he was happily in a relationship with me and decided to go ahead with it anyways. Sure, it isn't right to lead a girl on, but frankly any girl who willingly puts her heart on the line for a man who she knows is with someone else deserves what she gets. Hmmm, I think i just kicked my own ass there b/c then what does that say about me if I'm with a man who i know is willing to deceive a girl and put his relationship on the line for a thrill? Maybe I deserve what I get if I'm willing to accept it, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this out I guess.

I apologize if it ever seemed implied that swingers are people who have secretive lives or relationship or anything of that nature. I understand that swing is mostly about trust and honesty and would never try to degrade it to something shady or obscene. It's just that people who swing tend to have a more open mind when it comes to boundaries of sexual/emotional commitment. If I'm wrong, please forgive me, like I said, still trying to figure it out.

[Alura]

I think the thrill of newness is one of the big charms of swinging, MLP. Most of us enjoy it very much.

I don't think your Posslq is going about it the right way. It really is pretty brutal to tread on another person's emotions purely to gain a thrill for oneself.

Y'all need to ask a lot of questions, share a lot of answers, and look for a way to harness his need for variety.

Maybe swinging is the answer; the current situation is not.

Alura

[sweet_tna]

Sure, it isn't right to lead a girl on, but frankly any girl who willingly puts her heart on the line for a man who she knows is with someone else deserves what she gets. Hmmm, I think i just kicked my own ass there b/c then what does that say about me if I'm with a man who i know is willing to deceive a girl and put his relationship on the line for a thrill? Maybe I deserve what I get if I'm willing to accept it, I don't know.

Yes, you pretty much nailed it right there. The basic tenets of swinging are based on respect, communication, and solid relationships. You have none of these at present. He does not respect your wishes. Of course he hid things from you because he knew you wouldn't be happy. And despite your efforts to be understanding, you still aren't happy. He did not communicate these desires to you openly, nor is he being upfront with these girls he seeks emotional connections with.

we are just preparing for future circumstance b/c we don't want to come that close to losing our relationship again.

This is proof that you do not have a solid relationship. Swinging does NOT fix broken relationships, it only enhances what is already there. If there is a crack in the foundation, it WILL crumble.

I am not seeking to criticize you. I am trying to help you learn more about the lifestyle so that you may figure out where you want to go from here.

[lustylearning]

Ooh, shiny! Ooh, shiny! Ooh, shiny! NRE (new relationship energy) addiction really ought to be a clinical disorder.

[Newpants]

Instead of playing with people's feeling and hurting and decieving them for his own fun, let's say that he is raping teenage girls intead, or perhaps robbing banks, or bilking little old ladys out of their social security checks. Then would you want to be trying to understand and support his pastimes???

What he is doing is wrong. Period. It is bad behaviour and it is hurting and decieving other people for his fun and amuzement. You are trying to support and accomidate this bad behaviour, that makes you bad too.

This is not some sexual quirk or some kind of cute little fetish, this is predatory and abusive behaviour. He will not be interested in swinging because one of the bedrock foundational concepts in swinging is honesty and open communication.

This man is not just a loser he is a predator, a con man and a narcisist. He takes pleasure in deceiving and hurting other people. The person he is going to hurt the most over time is YOU.

I realize there are people that get caught up with bad people and they feel trapped and alone. What I don't get is that you KNOW what he is doing is wrong and yet you want to work with him and support this abusive pasttime of his. That makes YOU a coconspirator and an enabler.

Since you wanted sincere advice and not for people to tell you to leave him so here is my advice - Prepare yourself for a life of pain and torment and abuse. If you have minor children in your home, send them off to live with other relatives so they do not become his (and your) victims and they don't have to pay the price of your decisions. Try to squirrel away as much money as you can and do not let him near it because manipulators and narcisists will do whatever they can to get what they want regardless of the pain and suffering to other people.

You have only seen the tip of the iceberg and he has only 'fessed up to a tiny fraction of what he is doing. You are going to be in for a long, painfull road ahead of you.

[JandT_Elkhart]

+11tybillion for NewPants! Said it perfectly.

Bottom line, swinging/cheating or not, you are in a horribly un-healthy relationship with a VERY BAD MAN (and I use "man" loosely).

Please quit enabling his wretched behavior. Leave him TODAY. Then, please do look at yourself and why you'd be even remotely attracted to such a person. Because something tells me this is a trend and until you can stop this destructive behavior then you'll always be unhappy deep down.

I'd like to go out on a limb and say that I betcha he's emotionally and probably physically abusive so if you need help or support in leaving him then please don't hesitate to get it!

[socolais]

Perhaps this coin has another side. I think this behavior is made easier through the internet with all the interactive moblogs, chat rooms and flirt forums. I also think there are some folks that can manage some semblance of balance with the online flirting and perhaps even cybering (sexual chat). I think most folks that engage this behavior see it as a fun game with some sexual excitement and the intent that no one falls off the deep end and gets hurt. People, being what they are, some of them are going to be compulsive about this and maybe neglect other responsibilities. I think it CAN be a reasonably healthy game and maybe even a precursor to swinging or some other kind of sharing.


We can't tell from here if anyone is into this deeper than they can control or deeper than is healthy. One thing that is clearly obvious from your description is that you two are not on the same page with this - and perhaps that's the biggest concern. This is a good opportunity for you two to learn to communicate better with each other. I suggest you try to learn his perspective and motivation - have him share his adventure with you in whatever way you both can agree to. Use the opportunity to get closer to each other and you can keep an eye out for any danger signals. He can also gain a better understanding of your concerns and be a rich source of sexual fantasy to help keep the spark fresh between yall.

First things first, both of you must find the motivation to improve your communication with each other.

[Edison Carter]

Susan here-- He gets a cheap thrill out of meeting women online and running whatever 'con' he's running. And anyone that is running a 'con' has one goal--keep running the 'con'. Seventy percent of men do not cheat on their wives. A smaller percentage cheat a lot and across multiple marriages. It's one of those lies that happen with statistics.

Again, he likes the thrill of lying and pretending. He even may like the thrill of being caught by you. It's never going to get better and you really deserve better, or, maybe you don't. That's a choice I leave to you. And lastly, this is simply what you've caught him at, the really awful stuff are the things you don't know yet.

[Coupleerotic22]

Let me recap how I understood what you have said. I paraphrased what you said in bold and added observations or comments of mine in Italics. You might want to read the bold paraphrase first without my comments just so you know how what you are saying sounds. My advice is in the last paragraph if you want to jump to it first.

1. Dating for 2 years and live with a guy you met online -- check
2. You say you two are very much alike, open and understanding -- check
3. You find out online relationships are his fetish with him. The kind were he gets women that don't know him (except for your friend of course, who KNEW he was in a happy relationship ) to fall for him and drops them once they do because he gets bored. -- This shouldn't be a huge surprise as he met you online
4. 6 months ago he started another online relationship without your prior knowledge. -- You say you came here to get away from people calling him a cheater. People in the LS call it cheating too, and frankly have less tolerance for cheaters than the vanilla world, do a quick search for cheaters on this site and you will see what I mean
5. The only reason he did not tell you because he was afraid you would be mad and upset, and you did. But he would really prefer to tell you and from now on he will tell you everything, well almost everything -- So you said you are both understanding, he clearly did not think you would be and you were not. But he still went forward without out your knowledge knowing you would be upset.
6. You found out after a week but it went on another 7-8 weeks. -- Now you know he is cheating, he knows your are upset, but continues on for several more weeks regardless of how oyu feel
7. Currently he is not engaged in this activity, but you both want to prepare for future circumstance assuming it will resume. -- He is not currently as far as you know anyway. The thing about liars, and cheaters are liars, is they continue to do it.
8. You decided not to leave him but to be understanding, and forgive him, even though you were hurt. -- Okay, forgiveness is part of the foundation of solid relationships
9. After being found out he lavished you by taking a shower and shaving, putting on special cologne, kissing caressing etc.. Can we assume the make up sex was great. -- Okay, this is straight out of the "Player's Handbook" Chapter 1 - make peace with material gestures
10. He tells you the problem is you both are not accepting each of for who you are and trying to change each other. And that you should not keep telling him what he is doing is wrong. -- "Player's Handbook" Chapter 2 - Shift the blame, make the act of cheating as much her fault as his, if possible make it all her fault
11. He tells you he can control his urges if you want him to, but warns you it will make him resentful and restless because he is not being his true self. -- "Player's Handbook" Chapter 3 - Here is why I won't change, so it is up to you to change
12. You try to talk to him about it but feel he gets mad because you don't understand him -- Just and FYI, there are plenty of reason in your post to avoid the LS, but the fact you cannot talk openly, particularly about his infidelity, is enough reason alone to avoid the LS. The ability to communicate is critical
13. You are positive that you both want to be with the other, and this is nothing that cant be solved by just communicating better -- Clearly you want to be with him, you are making excuses for his behavior, taking on the burden of his infidelity. I don't however, see much from his side that suggest he is remorseful and intends to work on making your relationship work if he has to do anything different from what he is doing now. TO be fair, we have not heard his side, but since you are pleading his case with your words, I still think it is fair to say.
14. You are paranoid he will do it again, because he likes the thrill of the chase, and he becomes easily obsessed and infatuated with new relationships until he gets bored -- How does that saying go, "Just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean it's not true" - of course you are paranoid, you KNOW it will happen again. From what you said he has made no pretense that it wouldn't.
15. But you suppose that you just need to over come your naturally insecurities so you can remove any worry and fear that he might become to emotionally involved and leave you -- I am all for overcoming insecurities, I hope you do. However, I don't think it is your insecurities telling you he will leave, I think it is his behavior patterns
16. You are okay with him having a sexual relationship, just not an emotional one, so you want to set some boundaries for him to get what he needs without going "too far" and leaving you. -- I think "too far" has come and gone, besides what makes you think he will follow any boundaries, he has already lied to you and done so without real remorse
17. You understand why he cheats, because men have uncontrollable animalistic urges and most men are cheating anyway so there is some moral relevance. -- You are just trying to make yourself feel better with this one.
18. He calls it "games" to get women to fall for him online, that bothers you because he is betraying you emotionally. -- He is betraying them emotionally as well, lying to them, leading them on and dropping them, sounds like a real catch
19. You know it isn't right to lead a girls on, but they get what they deserves since they know they are fooling around with a man who is with someone else . But you are still trying to figure out if "getting what they deserve" applies to you as well. -- First, outside of your "friend" I doubt they know he is in a happy relationship, in fact it doesn't sound like he is, you certainly don't seem happy. You have no idea what he is telling those women, including your friend.
20. You would like to think he wouldn't do it again, but know that would be lying to yourself -- You certainly have that right.
21. You want to find away to let him do what he wants as long as it doesn't hurt you -- Not sure that is possible, and what about the other women he is hurting. If he is so willing to hurt them, it is not much of a stretch to figure out he will hurt you again.
22. You think swinging might possibly be the answer -- Swinging definitely does not sound like a good idea for you guys. Even if you think your relationship is stable enough, you would bring far too much drama to the table for most couples to want to deal with.

Ironically, when I first started reading your post, I was of the mindset that people make mistakes. Giving the guy a second chance and trying out the lifestyle might work for you. I don't believe that one mistake is enough to label a person a particular way for life. But as I continued to read I did a 180.

His words and actions tell you he is not going to change, he gets angry because you are trying to change him by simply expecting honesty. He turned the blame back on you for trying to change him from being his true self. And he is unable or unwilling to discuss it without getting angry. His words tell you that he WILL do it again even though it upsets you. I understand you are trying to find a compromise that keeps you together with the one you love, while giving him some freedom to do his thing. The problem is, the only compromise seems to be coming from you. That is not much of a relationship.

If you want to stay in a relationship with this guy you need to stay out of the LS for now at least, if not forever. He needs to stop what he is doing NOW and work on making the relationship about the two of you. If he loves you he can control his urges. You need to know which is more powerful, his love for you or his urges. I you can create a solid relationship, maybe someday, way down the road, you can talk about bring in others. But for now you relationship is too fragile to have a third person involved.

[Trace Ekies]

We assume this goofball is actually "meeting" "women" online...who knows...he may be "meeting" moronic losers like himself and just thinks they're women. I hope so, anyway.

Most importantly though...I want to be clear here...

"NEGOTIATED INFIDELITY" IS BOTH OXYMORONIC AND NOT TO BE COMPARED TO SWINGING IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

My statement is in all caps for a singular reason...I was yelling.

I want the moderators to pull this thread...I don't want any new member to come along and see this comparison. It's wrong, dead wrong.

Trace