Finding the right mix

[**Macbeth**]

Okay, the topic is a little vague, so I'll give a little info here.

The wife and I are very interested in the lifestyle. We married young, and have no sexual experience apart from each other.

We were both raised in very religious homes, but have made a final break from all of the baggage that is included in that. Jealousy has never really been an issue with us, and we both have close friends of the opposite sex, and have talked openly about our attraction to others. That is what actually led to us wanting to give this a try . . .

We have some slightly different views on how to approach it, however.

Our very long discussion on the topic eventually led us to discussing which people we know that we would actually feel comfortable sleeping with. One of the women we know was a definite on our lists (mine, and hers for me), although very few men popped up. I'm definitely straight, but she is mildly curious.

We also discussed the concept of 'opening' our relationship, and giving each other the permission to pursue opportunities, should they arise.

Right now, she would definitely be more comfortable with feeling out some of our friends, especially since one couple has been reasonably flirtatious and a bit of sexual tension usually develops. I'm a little leery of this, simply due to the potential damage the inquiry could do to our friendship, which is valuable to both of us. We have discussed ways of bringing it up in a such a way as to have plausible deniability if our read is wrong, but I still feel a little odd about it. Not that I wouldn't jump at the opportunity with this particular woman, but . . .

I have brought up to idea of maybe finding a club and testing things out to see how it feels in a practical situation. She feels that this is a bit more extreme, and is actually more attracted to the separate encounters anyway. When you add into the fact that I don't really trust CraigsList or other sites, I'm not sure what the middle ground might be.

Has anyone had experience with any of these situations? I've read the warnings about trying to bring your vanilla friends into the lifestyle, but since we're still basically vanilla still ourselves I'm curious if there is a way to determine if someone is interested or curious without simply saying "Do you guys swing?"

Hopefully my rambling has made some sort of sense.

[Additude]

In this game, remember your not alone. It may seem so because it is new to you, however the human emotions of it in the beginning are pretty much standard across the board. We have all been there.

As for feeling out your friends, if they are good fiends then the next time your all together strike up a conversation about swinging or porn or sex and migrate it to swinging. You should be able to get a feel from them on their stance to the subject and that will indicate if you should persue it further.

Clubs are a good place to start. You don't have "to do" anything there, you can just watch and observe if you'd like. Most clubs have an "orientation" for newbies, which is a good practice.

On line sites can be hit or miss. It is what it is. Try signing up for Adult Swingers Personals Service and LifeStyle info. as most here are on that site and would recommend it. Swingers personals, swinger chat, adult profiles - Swappernet.com is another you can check out.

Craigs list is a joke. Don't waste your time.

Good luck, have fun.....stay safe.

[LagniappeDC]

First off, welcome and congrats for taking the time to really think this through and talk. That's such a key to having a strong relationship in the lifestyle!!

Here are a couple of thoughts from our perspective. We've often talked about which of our 'vanilla' friends or co-workers we'd like to convert but would never actually do it. We think there is just too much to risk. Beyond the fact that you might 'out' yourself and have to deal with those repercussions, swinging has a lot of emotions tied to it. Even if your friends wanted to give it a shot, if the play situation went poorly, jealousy or dram developed, etc, you would have a hard time getting that friendship aspect back. So, just consider that. I'm sure there are others who have done this successfully, but for us, not a risk we would be willing to take.

We would also recommend clubs as a good place to start. There are two types - on premise where you can play there, and off-premise where you can't. Either way, you are under no obligation to do anything with anyone. Just go, have fun with your spouse, enjoy the sexual vibe, meet some people, etc. House parties can be more intimate, and another good way to meet local folks and talk and learn.

We have our best luck meeting people online and then actually meeting them at the club for an introductory drink, etc. Swing Lifestyle is where many start. You may want to check around to see if there are any more local to the Pacific Northwest. You can use your profile to be explicit about what you are looking for - ie, separate rooms, separate play, etc.

Given that you are so new, the best thing is to experiment with what is out there - with no expectations - and see what works best for you. Remember, it's not a sprint. Take your time and you'll find the right couple or singles to play with.

Good luck!

[sexcupid]

I think it's a little natural to want to first cast the net for possibilities among your circle of friends. Mostly becasue they are a known quantity, there is a comfort level there. However, it's also the reason that some people don't want to date their best guy/girl friend...you can never go back to what it was. What if you and some friends swap one night and it's all good, but then the other hubby wants to creep around behind his wife's back to play with your wife? How would you feel if a swap does happen but then friends get blabby?

My thoughts tend along the lines of all of our friends (in and out of the LS) were strangers once. Try going to an off premise club if she is open to the idea...you still get the sexy, charged environment without feeling like you have to go to the playroom.

We've also had success meeting folks through Swing Lifestyle. There you can set up more one on one meetings with other couples so it's more like a date night out (dinner, drinks, etc).

Of course she's more open to just kind of doing things separately because that's all sex has ever been (and generally how it's "supposed to be"). Women get performance anxiety too you know...should we be louder? What if I have a more intense reaction to someone else, how is my sweetie going to feel? Jealous? Inadequate? And you know...those are all valid concerns.

Speaking from our limited experience playing separately (not separate rooms...that's quite nice actually...but one of us having playtime where the other is aware but not involved in anyway), I feel it really leads to a disconnect with us as a couple...the longer we are together and the longer we try to stay involved in the LS, I like to feel that it is something we do together...not feel like we're both setting off on different paths to experience. YMMV, that is just my experience and there are plenty of others here that have had great success with separate playtime.

At the very least, look for a local meet and greet. They are usually held in bars or restaurants and it provides a chance to just socialize with others. It may make you and your wife more comfortable.

[sweet_tna]

Okay . . . the good news is that ya'll are on the right track by taking the time to really talk about your feelings/desires and considering different approaches to the lifestyle.

The not-so-good news is that trying to swing with your existing (as far as you know) vanilla friends, is fraught with potential problems. It often seems "safer", as you know them well and have a level of trust. But the kicker is that once you express interest in playing with them, you've left your fly open, as it were.

Your best bet, I think, would be to try going to a club, or a meet & greet. This way, you can at least have the chance to meet some folks who you know are in the lifestyle, but without the pressure to "do" anything until you're ready.

One of the key things ya'll need to keep in mind is that it's best to follow the pace of the slowest (least comfortable) person. And until you each figure out what "pace" feels best to you, it's best to take it slow. Playing separately is not for everyone, and requires a great deal of trust. Separate rooms may be a better compromise for what you're looking for . . . but that's a decision only you can make.

Keep talking, and best of luck to ya'll!

=)

[cocpl2007]

Yes, I’ve been exactly where you expressed that the two of you are. Mrs. Co has not. We are the survivors. My experience comes from my prior 27 year marriage.

We met young. We were each other’s one and only. Around 24 years into our marriage, things evolved into discussing adding others to our sexual play. Initially neither of us wanted to play alone. The huge issue became, so we’ve decided, now what? It is not like you just go out pick up another couple, and head off to a motel room for a romp in the sack! We contemplated this for quite some time. We had friends who had made overtures, both of them were appealing enough so that they were good candidates for this adventure. We pretty much decided, that when we got together again, and the circumstance was right, we’d push the envelope a bit to see what happened. He was always sexually forward with my wife. She was more subtle, but that was more to her personality.

We placed ads. We answered ads. We traveled to a swingers club. But where we found our very first play partner, was right in front of us. A colleague at work. She was working on a project, and not someone we’d run into accidently once that project was completed. Turned out to be a fun adventure, for all three of us.

The most prolific source of playmates, couples with whom we engaged in play, was chat on AOL. This worked for several years. But recently it seems that the Swinging sites (AFF, Swing Lifestyle, etc) have taken over, and are the only real alternative to clubs. In my experience these sites are very, very poor compared to my experiences with AOL. But that is what we are left with, since AOL lost its popularity. I have only attended two different clubs. While the first was to explore the realm of such places, we were not adverse to hooking up with another couple, should the opportunity present itself. That experience is a whole story in and of itself! The second, we attended with another couple we were already playing with, just to experience such a place. And an experience it was!

I would suspect that there are as many methods to hook up with others, as there are members here on Julie’s site. I never have engaged vanilla friends, nor would I. Those friendships are unique in their own right, and even though some of the ladies may be quite appealing, I just never felt that was worth the risk to the friendship.

Since Mrs. Co and I have been married, our only success in finding couples has came from the on-line swinger sites. Just based upon our experience/s, these sites are incredibly cumbersome, and problematic, when compared with AOL chat. With AOL chat no longer an option, this is what we are left with.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Sunswept]

One can look at the universe of possible ways people can come into our lives in a way that includes a sexual dimension as a continum or spectrum.

On one end of the spectrum is swinging -which is all about the fun and pleasure of sexing, lusting and fucking.
On the other end of the spectrum, is polyamory -which is about having more than one love or 'emotionally intimate' interest, and where there is permisson for sex to be a part of expressing that intimacy.

In swinging the sex is an extension of the couples sexual relationship, it adds to and does not replace it or exist apart from the couples sexual relationship.

In polyamory, any sex that happens is part of the intimacy ( and emotonal bonds ) between one or the other partner's additional love interest(s). Sometimes both people in a couple can each love both parties in another couple ( a quad) or a single (triad) , but it is more usual for poly people to maintain "one on one" interests that do not include their spouse sexually.(V's).

In swinging it is more common for couples to play together with other couples oir singles, in polyamory it is more common for members of a couple to play seperately with their individual outside love interests or friends.

I notice that those couples that define themselves as 'swingers' congregate somewhere toward the swinging end of the spectrum. Sure, they may have a few swinging friends they see time to time... but they have no hesitation playing with people they are attracted to and have just met either. They may even each have swinging play partners or members of favorite swinging couples that they swing seperately with.

I notice that those that define themselves as 'polyamorous' congregate somewhere near the polyamory end of the spectrum -one or each person in the couple will have at least one other person other than their primay partner that they are emotionally bonded to in some way that they have sex with... sure, they may as a couple have friend couples they have sex with together or seperately...and they may even possible 'swing' on rare occasion too.

So, in practice any couple (or person) can be anywhere on this spectrum. And some people can do equally well at either pole of this spectrum. IMHO, it takes a lot of inner knowledge, experience and wisdom to work near the middle of this spectrum.

The key difference is that swingers have no problem having sexual fun without any emotional ties, as opposed to polyamorous people that really want or need the emotional component to complement and potentiate the sex.

So I guess that from what you have said **Macbeth** , you and your partner each have to figure out and come to terms with where each of you are on this spectrum, and understand each pole of this spectrum -before you will be able to figure out your best next move. I have a hunch you may have a more swinging attitude, where the sex can preceed any feelings, your wife may have a more polyamorous attitude where at least some feelings must preceed the sex. Go to gatherings of both communities!

It is very natural for new people to want to seek the safety of starting out with people they already know. But this perception of safety is an illusion, the chances of things going wrong with vanella friends are vastly highter than them going right, and it's usually a case of the blind leading the blind for beginners. Also, new people do not understand that the true safety in the swinging lifestyle actually comes from within their relationship... swingers not only co-enhance the relationship sexually, but co-protect it in it's entirety!

[**Macbeth**]

Thanks for all the replies.

Sunswept: I think we're definitely more toward the swinger end of things. We have explicitly talked about the fact that sex is one thing, but a longer-term emotional relationship would be something completely different. Most likely something detrimental to our relationship.

For the Mrs., I think she is more concerned with the comfort level, and having people we already know would make her feel more comfortable. The big issue, to me, is that if the other couple is not in the same place as us, or has not thought about it the way we have, then even if there is an agreement there is a strong likelihood of it going terribly wrong.

My wife has been discussing a platonic 'girls weekend' with this young woman, although from past experiences I have strong suspicions that with the right external impetus, it would quickly stray from the platonic . . . Anyway, she has decided that she will broach the subject by talking to our friend about how she has been fantasizing about opening our relationship. This would be done in a tone of confiding a secret, and maybe asking if they'd ever though about that. This doesn't bother me too much, because it can easily be played off as 'girl talk', without ever putting the "do you guys swing?" card on the table.

The other element that concerns me, though, is that this is a married couple. While I could easily see the wife being into it, the husband is pretty reserved and almost pathologically shy. That could hide some fairly wild tendencies, but could not. I definitely don't want to do anything if there isn't mutual consent from the whole couple, as the only thing worse than destroying the friendship would be damaging or destroying someone else's marriage.

So, my wife will most likely be doing the 'girl talk' thing, since she has pretty much made her mind up to do so in a situation that reduces the danger level. I suppose the worst that can happen is that a seed could be planted, as long as the situation is actually right.

And, for a little more info on the club idea, one of my wife's concerns, apart from the extremity of the step, is that she is in a helping profession, and the idea (however remote) that she might possibly run into a client in that situation would put a very wet blanket on the experience for her.

[Sunswept]

I think we're definitely more toward the swinger end of things. We have explicitly talked about the fact that sex is one thing, but a longer-term emotional relationship would be something completely different. Most likely something detrimental to our relationship.

A friendship IS a "longer term emotional relationship"! No getting around that!

For the Mrs., I think she is more concerned with the comfort level, and having people we already know would make her feel more comfortable.

I understand! I do! We all do! However the comfort is illusory -just wait until things come up that are much more uncomfortable than just going out and meeting existing swingers! And they will! As people curious about swinging and have never actually done it, you will have your plate full just checking in with yourselves -accepting something in the abstract is one thing! BUT -you may not accept certain things you think you do when the rubber hits the pussy!

The big issue, to me, is that if the other couple is not in the same place as us, or has not thought about it the way we have, then even if there is an agreement there is a strong likelihood of it going terribly wrong.

Indeed! You would both as couples be confronting your reactions to actually swinging for the first time! Instead of you as a couple going through that (even if you both are on the same page) for yourselves first! Dealing with unexpected things that come up just between you and your wife will probably be a big enough thing on its own!

My wife has been discussing a platonic 'girls weekend' with this young woman, although from past experiences I have strong suspicions that with the right external impetus, it would quickly stray from the platonic . . .

And if it strays from platonic -then what?? Is your wife's friend going to call her hubby there and then to get permission?? Or would she cheat on him?? Or tell him after the fact? Or not tell him? BOOM!!
That you think it is a possibility that your wife and her friend would move that fast together is a red flag by itself.

Anyway, she has decided that she will broach the subject by talking to our friend about how she has been fantasizing about opening our relationship. This would be done in a tone of confiding a secret, and maybe asking if they'd ever though about that. This doesn't bother me too much, because it can easily be played off as 'girl talk', without ever putting the "do you guys swing?" card on the table.

Why not lay that card on the table??? There is a chance they are swingers and have already decided they will not swing with you because you are their friends! Also, swingers don't really 'open' their relationship, it is in fact 'tighter' than vanella people's! Having swinging sex with other people is not opening your relationship! Beginners get so confused about this!

Also, secrets in swinging seem to have a 10 fold greater capacity to bite you in the ass unexpectedly than is otherwise the case. Just sayin...

The other element that concerns me, though, is that this is a married couple. While I could easily see the wife being into it, the husband is pretty reserved and almost pathologically shy....

....I definitely don't want to do anything if there isn't mutual consent from the whole couple, as the only thing worse than destroying the friendship would be damaging or destroying someone else's marriage.

Exactly! And this is why if you do not figure out a way to broach this to the couple as a couple, you could accidently set off a big drama bomb. You have no concept or control of what your wife's friend would tell her husband after being clued in on "the secret", or how he would react to that. If you want consent from the whole couple then you really are wise to start with that in the first place. But you don't want to do that because there is a chance it could damage your friendship. Circles are circular!

Invite them over to watch 'Swingtown" on DVD... way better than your plan.

So, my wife will most likely be doing the 'girl talk' thing, since she has pretty much made her mind up to do so in a situation that reduces the danger level. I suppose the worst that can happen is that a seed could be planted, as long as the situation is actually right.

No -the worst thing that could happen is your wifes friend will go back to her husband and say:
Wife: "Sally next door says they are thinking about swinging, and want us..or at least me... to swing with them.
Husband; "What? Isn't that where people swap wifes? He put her up to this, I'm gonna go over and kick his ass for wanting to get in your pants.
Wife: "But honey, thats not..."
Husband: "We can talk when I get back...the nerve of that SOB!"

And, for a little more info on the club idea, one of my wife's concerns, apart from the extremity of the step, is that she is in a helping profession, and the idea (however remote) that she might possibly run into a client in that situation would put a very wet blanket on the experience for her.

You can go to a club in another city. The remote possibility of being outed is always present. Lets say your plan works and you swing with your friends. What will keep them (now full of newbee enthusiam) from accidently "outing" you?? I seriously do not get why you two think going to a club is an extreme step! What is so extreme about it??? You don't have to do anything there..and probably should not do anything -except to talk to people and observe!

What you are proposing is more extreme if you ask me! Hey, at a club or 'meet and greet' you can safely check out if the swinging scene is for you or not... your friends will always be there later if you are still hell bent on them! Better than maybe comfortably messing up your friendship -and then uncomfortably going to a club only to realize the fantasy is better for you than the reality and discovering you have 'issues' about 'swinging' you never realized you had!

If you ask me, if you collectively are not comfortable enough to at least meet (not play with, but just meet) existing swingers, you are not comfortable enough to swing at all. Your discomforts will get you into too much trouble.

Maybe we could be of more help if your wife posted here too???

[xyzzy07]

I have to agree with Sunswept that discussing swinging with your friends is much more extreme than going to a swing club. The clubs have welcoming atmospheres, and you can just dance and enjoy the sexy environment without doing anything at all beyond your comfort zones.

You'll likely encounter much less drama with swingers than with vanilla friends. Even newbies like yourselves at a club have already decided that they may want to play with others.

[**Macbeth**]

Thanks for the responses, again. I've set up an account for her, and she browsed a bit last night, but hasn't had a chance to actually post anything. I would love for her to chime in.

First off, neither one of us has an intention of inviting either one of them individually. Her intention was simply to mention it, as if she hadn't spoken to me, to gauge the reaction. It would not even be in reference to them specifically, but rather more general about maybe possibly considering it as an idea. If the reaction is negative, she has the plausible deniability of just sharing secrets between 'the girls'. There is also the chance that the response would be "well, we've been thinking about that too!"

The voices of experience on this are definitely welcome, and I'd really like her to get into this discussion, since a third party can often give the necessary perspective to clear up thinking, and I'm not always the best at conveying information like this.

And as far as anything happening between the two of them, I may have overstated the possibility. There have been a few drunken flirtatious moments in the past, with "I like her more than I like you" kinds of comments, after some flirtation with me prior. I don't want to judge anyones actions based on their behavior while intoxicated, but you still see some things that may not come out sober but are still really there.

Regarding the concept of 'open marriage', we've kind of been using the definition as allowing sexual encounters other just the two of us. I know there are many, many different definitions, but that's where we're coming from on it.

[Sunswept]

Avoid 'open marrage' term in your thinking about this for now. It's too ambiguious. When I hear that term used by new people saying they want to swing... I can't help but think they are either not clear on what swinging is or they are not comfortable with swinging deep down inside and they use that term to unconsciously "clean up" the concept of swinging for themselves. That term is more a poly term anyway. Unconscious or random word choices can be very revealing.

My advise is to put any plans to act on your new interest in swinging on the back burner until you both read more of this forum, especially the threads related to 'swinging with friends' and any that pop up using the search term "open marrage."

Participating here before you dive in further can't hurt either!
For starters:
What do you two want from swinging?
What do you expect to get from it?
Have you talked about any boundaries, limits or "rules?
What got you both interested in swinging anyway?
What do you think swinging will get you both that you don't have now?
What are all your concerns and/or anxieties entering this exploration? (You can leave out getting "outed"..lol!)
What have your disagreements been about swinging?
How have you resolved those disagreements?

We really hate using this emoticon:


Or this one:



But we love using this one:

[**Lady Macbeth*]

Thanks for all of the replies! So, I will chime in my thoughts here. Having only begun seriously considering the possibility of swinging, polyamory, open relationship, etc., Macbeth and I have been discussing the multiple possibilities and have no plan of acting until we have a better sense of our own, and each other's desires and needs. Having been raised in a very conservative home, and no longer owning the moral codes that brought with it, he and I have discussed this with a "travel" metaphor. This began with our first non-joking conversation about being with other people. Macbeth is definitely more on the swinging end of things, I don't know if there is a good word for what I am.

Basically, I would like to have the mutual open opportunity to become sexually involved with others, so long as we were open about it and asked one another first. Our relationship is very solid and we have never been jealous or possessive, so it seems like a natural step. I am very excited and turned on by the thought of my husband receiving pleasure from someone, but don't particularly feel the need to watch. I would love to have him tell me about it. I also would love to experiment, but don't feel like I would necessarily want to be watched by him at first, but would love to tell him about it.

Macbeth is interested in a more active pursuit, I a more passive pursuit. This is partially prompted by the fact that I am rather picky and even when thinking about all the different men in my life from friends, colleagues, classmates, I literally could only think of one that I would even be interested in pursuing. I think the erotic nature of being "open" to the possibilities of others is a great deal of the turn-on for me, as well as the thought of him receiving pleasure from someone else. I believe that having a very closed mind for several years generated a large amount of repression of desire, and opening the option for desire with the possibility of consummation is quite exciting.

I first suggested some friends primarily because of overtures that had been made before. Because of uncertainties, "feeling out" the interest is part of the fun for me. However, because I really believe in the concept of well communicated boundaries and respect, I would never consider making strong pursuit without certainty that ALL parties were interested and comfortable, as well as willing to communicate openly about potential reprocussions. Macbeth and I are emotionally very mature people and good communicators with a sense that there is nothing that can't be talked about.

Hope this clarifies that lady's perspective a bit!

[Rackir]

Well I'm gonna step away from the pile a little bit here, and if not disagree with the others, at least try to put a slightly different perspective on the whole "playing with friends" thing.

First off, I totally get how going to a club seems more extreme than the idea of playing with friends. Granted their both purely a perspective thing, but I think I fully get yours on this.

When imagining playing with friends it's natural to picture it going very organically. You're all kicking around the house, having some drinks, maybe watching a movie, everyone is having fun and flirting with one another. Then one of you (probably the Mrs, cause it always works better that way) starts flirting a little heavier, and then if and only if (my logic prof. would shudder to see me use that phrase) the vibe felt totally right, would you actually pursue the encounter. The nice thing about it is that it doesn’t require an acknowledgement of "tonight we are looking for other sexual partners" or anything that abrupt. Things can just flow as they flow.

Going to a club on the other hand can seem to be just the opposite. In that case you are going out specifically looking for new partners, or at least the possibility thereof. There may be a feeling of something akin to obligation to the event clouding the perspectives of either of you, and that combined with entering into a totally new environment can cast a shade of awkwardness that runs contrary to the "we're just here to have fun" mindset.

That is not to say that either of those scenarios would actually play out that way, but that is one way that going to clubs can seem more intimidating than the prospect of playing with friends.

Now on the topic of playing with friends. Sure there are risks involved, but the rewards for when it works can be SO good! The overwhelming majority of our swinging experience (which is far from vast I’ll freely admit) has been with friends, and all but one time it was great, and did nothing to the friendships other than make them run deeper and add a great new elements to them. On the one other time it still didn’t hurt the friendship at all, it just wasn’t that great an experience.

The trick is, I think, to choose the friends wisely. If these are friends who don’t seem to have any particular hang-ups about sex, who are openly flirtatious, who are equally both of your friends, and most of all whom you know you can communicate with without offending, than they are quite possibly good matches for some fun times (whether that be a one off or a recurring thing). But do yourself the favor of making sure you feel comfortable broaching the subject with them, only you guys can know if they are a good match for you. And like others have said, if things do go bad, you’re stuck with the consequences.

Be honest with yourselves, are you or wife a really good judge of people? If so and if you think that these friends could at least entertain the notion without offense, than I’d say go for it. If no to either of those questions, than I’d say you are probably best served looking elsewhere, whether that be clubs, events or online.

One way or another though, keep your eyes open for possibilities, you never know what fun may be just around the corner.

[fun4Ds]

The possibilities are endless.....

We have many reasons why we find it best to present ourselves to potential playmates together, face to face. Or at least face to face, ASAP.....

One, is either of us ending up as the person in the middle.

What happens if you find out through this girl/girl talk they are open to the idea of either of them playing with Lady MacBeth but not Mr MacBeth ?

In an established friendship, it would be hard to not to be the person in the middle of things. Is that a "fair enough" situation ?