Finding the right mix

[maniaco333]

"We also discussed the concept of 'opening' our relationship, and giving each other the permission to pursue opportunities, should they arise."

I know that every relationship is different and lots of people are only comfortable with same room swap or only swinging together. But for us opening our relationship has really worked.
I (male) had a couple of relationships with other women and when I come home and tell my wife about all the little details it gets her really turned on plus with two of those women we were able to have FFM threesomes later on.

My wife has also had sex with other males and it always makes our great sex life even better and I am happy to report that we just had our first ever MMF threesome this past Saturday night and it was with a single male that she had played on one previous ocassion.

I'm sure everyones path into the lifestyle has been unique and not everyone is comfortable with open relationships but you just gotta figure out what you are OK with and what might work for you.

[sweet_tna]

Hi Lady Macbeth! Thanks for adding your perspective to the matter. It's much easier to give advice when we have both sides of the story.

And I do understand your point about how at least "testing the waters" with your friends seems less intimidating. It would be hypocritical of me to say otherwise, given that our first swing experience was with friends. The difference in our situation is that our friends never intended for that to happen, and while it was a positive experience for us, we wouldn't ever choose to play with any of our vanilla friends.

Allow me to explain. Our friends told us that they had begun swinging so that the wife would have someone outside of the lifestyle to talk to. They felt we were their closest vanilla friends, and were actually concerned that I would be disapproving (they thought I was a prude, Hah!). But they also knew I'd do darned near anything for a friend.

They were very surprised at my reaction. I was excited, intrigued, and peppered them with questions. I allowed myself to become more flirtatious with them, and the Mr. and I decided to give the lifestyle a try whether anything happened with them or not. From the point we made that decision, we were no longer (in my mind) vanilla. It was only a matter of time before our swinger cherry got popped.

Ya'll have been given lots of food for thought here, but the fact remains that YOU TWO are the ones that have to make the decision about if/when/how to proceed with this. It seems like ya'll have a pretty good base of communication and have worked out what you'd like to have happen for the most part. Keep talking, and and try to come up with a set of rules/guidelines based on your comfort levels.

=)

[Sunswept]

Originally Posted by **Lady Macbeth*

.... because I really believe in the concept of well communicated boundaries and respect, I would never consider making strong pursuit without certainty that ALL parties were interested and comfortable, as well as willing to communicate openly about potential reprocussions. Macbeth and I are emotionally very mature people and good communicators with a sense that there is nothing that can't be talked about.

Hope this clarifies that lady's perspective a bit!

Great to see you posting here Lady Macbeth! Yes, that really helps.

You both seem very articulate and grounded, and from what I gather from what you both wrote, (and especially what you said quoted above) and from what your husband has already posted, you both have a solid foundation to start from. Taking the time to really explore what you each want and expect, and seeking as much information and as many resources as you can about bringing other people into your sex life ( especially from people who have 'been there' ) shows wisdom.

I had a similar very repressed and conservative background (Catholic) in fact I was being pushed into the priesthood but a crush on a girl and my "other' head both conspired to make me ditch that plan. One of the times thinking with my "other" head was fortunate. I (and I suspect many others on this forum) can empathize greatly with the excitement of discovering new erotic possibilities, ones we may have once shunned or thought unthinkable.

I like your 'travel" metaphor! If I were to make one point, it would be this:

A journey can in the beginning be as much a discovery about our inner selves, as it is about the place we are traveling to. We think we know what to expect, we think we know how we will react. But more often that not, we surprise ourselves about what we learn about ourselves just as much as we are surprised by what we learn of the land we travel to. What we thought might be scary we may find delightful, what we thought would be pedestrian we may discover in reality to be a great challenge or even a source of conflict.

So, allow for those surprises of the inner self. And allow both yourselves the best possible environment and "look out the window" to allow for the time, space and energy to process and integrate those inner discoveries -be those discoveries sublime, ecstatic or even baffeling and disturbing. It will be much less complex and you have a greater chance of doing that if you restrain the journey to the two of you -minus anyone else you have an emotional investment in -and plus people that already know the territory -at least in the beginning.

In the long run, with the qualities you both display -nothing is impossible. But take things step by step. Good Luck in your "travels"!

[**Macbeth**]

Sunswept -

I have to say that you have provided some very thoughtful, informative, and well constructed input here. It really helped us understand both the lifestyle in general terms, as well as helping us understand and clarify what we're thinking about.

Our talking may be leading us in a more Poly direction, but there is still quite a bit of discussion and personal exploration that needs to happen.

One thing that I keep thinking about is the nature of love, and our relationships with people around us.

Love has no limits, other than those applied by ourselves, or by society. Love is pure, and can be expressed in many ways. Sharing love does not reduce the amount of love available to you, and sharing love with another person does not have to replace the love you share with someone else. Whether it be a strong friendship, a romantic involvement, or sexuality, as human beings we have a capacity for loving that is not by itself confined or finite. By giving ourselves and our partners the permission to experience and express our love without guilt, shame, or fear we only increase the amount of love we are able to experience.

I know it sounds kind of cheeseball, but that is where my thoughts have been centering. That, and my wife and I both have started coming to the conclusion that our old religion is perhaps being replaced by the 'religion' of love and attachment.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by **Macbeth**

One thing that I keep thinking about is the nature of love, and our relationships with people around us.

Love has no limits, other than those applied by ourselves, or by society. Love is pure, and can be expressed in many ways. Sharing love does not reduce the amount of love available to you, and sharing love with another person does not have to replace the love you share with someone else. Whether it be a strong friendship, a romantic involvement, or sexuality, as human beings we have a capacity for loving that is not by itself confined or finite. By giving ourselves and our partners the permission to experience and express our love without guilt, shame, or fear we only increase the amount of love we are able to experience.

It is great that you guys are talking a lot about all of these things! I think that was the thing that I liked the most about exploring this whole aspect of our lives. We already were pretty honest and good at communication, but the total different level of communication we strive for now is totally different.

I do have one comment on your thought process of our capacity for love. I love the idea you put out, but I think that there is one major thing that impacts it: time. We can feel that deep love for more than one person at a time, but we can only spend any given moment with one of those people unless we're living in the same household. So I think there is the potential for an imbalance in the amount of time that one person wants/needs with the other. Not that it's a bad thing, but it is definitely an aspect of multiple poly relationships that can creep up behind the scenes. I'd be curious to hear from any of the members who have explored poly relationships to see if thats something they encountered or noticed along the way.

[**Macbeth**]

You bring up a great point, Slevin. Time is key issue, and one that we've discussed in this regard.

Several points have come up that give us an idea of how that would impact us.

First off, we have both been extensively involved in theater for years. We are used to one or the other of us having late evenings and busy schedules, usually for long periods of time. We have often gone long periods of time with only the passing in the hall kind of stuff. At the beginning of our marriage we talked about how this was something that we felt was important, and that it was expected and accepted that their would be an impact on our time together. It hasn't weakened our relationship at all. Add in separate travel that we've done for business and education over the years, and we're familiar and comfortable with it.

Secondly, we have always had not only mutual friends, but close friends of our own that we spend time with separately. Evenings out with our individual friends occur frequently. We've even done separate trips, such as hunting trips, or weekends at the coast.

Making the time for external relationships has always been an important element of our marriage, and will remain so.

Neither of us is looking a second spouse, or an addition to our family. We are looking for deep, full, and fulfilling relationships with other people to complement our own. We just don't want to place restrictions on what those relationships may or may not involve.

We've already laid out that any of these relationships should not interfere with anything we have planned as a family, and that neither of us would try to create situations to 'test' our commitment to each other (i.e. bringing up something we'd rather do when the other mentions a potential date).

The other element we've discussed is that we have 15 years of marriage, with all the shared experiences that involves, as well as a child. NOTHING we find could replace that. Even the strongest connections would be fundamentally different than that kind of connection. But, with that in mind, we've also talked about how these other relationships should probably not involve the kinds of things that we have traditionally valued as experiences to be shared within OUR relationship, such as travel. Evenings out, etc. are fine, but we're not going to run off to Cancun or Rome for a week. At least, not unless we both go along.

I know that many people hold a fairly strict view of the concept of 'poly'. That's fine. We've established what we feel is our view, and find that the term poly fits better than swinger. I guess it doesn't need a name.

[fun4Ds]

I'm just curious as to these "friends" you already have, that are being considered now.

Understanding each other is one thing. But, if these friends you want these "deep, full, and fulfilling relationships with" don't understand the way you feel or even the swinging lifestyle. How will you explain that to them ?

[**Lady Macbeth*]

I am really enjoying and valuing the comments and thoughts here and Macbeth and I are having wonderful conversations about where our thoughts and feelings are headed. We both agree that simply allowing ourselves to "feel" the attraction to others, and tell each other, is extremely liberating and very erotic as well. We have begun discussing what our boundaries "would be if we go in this direction."

I had a wonderful momentary experience yesterday. Macbeth mentioned that he and I have been in the theatre for years. The last play we were involved in included each of us involved in a love scene with someone else (good friends both). His love scene was with someone he has an attraction towards although until our recent discussions did not feel comfortable sharing this with me. I found it exciting. When we were discussing (theory only) who is in our life currently that we feel attraction towards, he asked about the person in the same play whom I had shared a kiss with as part of a scene. I thought about it, and initially thought, "no, no attraction or chemistry there."

Hadn't seen this person in over a week, before Macbeth and I began serious conversations (has it only been a week?) I looked at this person, and felt attraction and chemistry. I almost immediately texted Macbeth to tell him about the chemistry and it was so fun! I then realized after we talked, that I had completely repressed the chemistry and attraction towards this person in the past out of fear, since we were in a love scene together, would kiss, etc I simply couldn't allow myself to go there. Almost immediately after Macbeth and I decided that we were open to at least exploring attraction to others, I felt the attraction and chemistry to this close friend.

The likelihood is that I would not pursue this person due to a number of complicated factors, but being able to feel attracted, explore chemistry, and immediately tell my husband not out of guilt but out of excitement, was one of the most liberating, fun moments I can remember having in a long time.

Thanks for all of the thoughts and support!

Lady Macbeth

[sweet_tna]

Congrats on the first of many wonderful experiences, Lady Macbeth! I know just what you mean. Mr. Sweet and I used to play the "what if" game years before we even thought about swinging. We'd ask each other who, among our friends, would we have sex with, if the situation presented itself. In our case, knowing it would never "go there", made us feel safe to talk about it.

Now, knowing that we (theoretically) could act on those feelings makes it all the more exciting. Of course, there are those folks that are "off limits" (coworkers, etc.), but it's still a fun game to play.

Enjoy your liberation! (You too, Macbeth!)

=)

[Chicup]

You two seem like a smart couple. Thats fine, but I think you are being too smart for your own good. Over analyzing swinging, getting into love theory, and all that is great, on paper, but you are also plain old human animals programed by eons of lusts and jealousies.

What we are talking about here is fucking other people. Its not an emotional epiphany, but something universal to mammals.

You may talk about it for hours, you make think you have it worked out, you may have all the intellectual angles worked out, but when the fucking starts there is a little part of your brain that corresponds with pronounced brow ridges, that can make you go from uneasy to HULK SMASH!

You are not in control of this little spot of cro-magon, he (and less often but still there) she will come out when you least expect it, when you don't want it, and where it doesn't belong. Now with time and experience you can put him back in Lascaux, but you two have neither, so don't be so sure you will be all happy and sunshine after a partner comes home for the first time smelling of sex. Imagination is stronger than reality at times, not seeing, even though you are told can be maddening.

Likewise you play another dangerous game with a more acceptable, yet still primitive, hard to control part of the brain. When you go off alone, you are not thinking of your partner. It is not his or her desires you are thinking of but your own. You think your relationship is rock solid, and it might be, but alone time with someone new can create those feeling of love when they are again not wanted. Its natural, its genetic, its instinctive, and just being smart doesn't mean you control it. Open relationships seem to fail very frequently and its normally caused by the relationship of a play partner. I believe this is very dangerous water for you to enter at your current level of experience separating sex from marriage.

Finally something the lady said has me concerned. It was the innocent statement that he is the active pursuing one and she is the passive one. This is called being normal. Men are far more often the active one in 1-1 situations and females the passive ones. This is why in swinging an active female is so useful in finding couples, aggressive males are a dime a dozen, aggressive females are sexy. It has me concerned because you seem to be unaware of how this will work. Assuming the lady is reasonably attractive she will have FAR more offers, far more opportunities to pursue, far more success in finding partners. As a man you have to work for it, its expected, its often REQUIRED, and you are pursuing women who are working from the other side of it, its their job genetically to make the male work for it. Finding women willing to jump in the sack with the wifes permission will be hard. Finding men willing to do the same, will be easy. This can create friction very quickly. This is why so many people look for couples. Its harder to find matches but it doesn't leave the husband out. I like to think my wife and I are reasonably attractive, I know if we did 'open relationship' tonight, she will be home very late and I will be home at closing time. We're I a true single man, that would be different, I would instantly become more attractive to women due to my status in the community, it wouldn't be really gold digging it would be just how most females are attracted to males, but as a meatpuppet not so much. I'm not saying its impossible for a married man to find a play partner, but the number of women willing will be far far lower than the number of men willing.

And all this leads us to poly. Poly sounds great, poly sounds like the perfect world, but so is communism on paper. In reality its tremendously complicated. Watching the ups and downs of the poly couples here on the forum, I can say I don't even think it works for the vast majority. For most saying poly is a way to feel less dirty about the sex, and for women who sleep around to mentally argue to themselves they are not sluts. Its a sweeping term that can mean anything from someone living with you 24/7 to just liking your fuck buddy. The feeling I'm getting is you want to feel less dirty. Don't go that route. Find out if you can handle the sex before you find out if you can handle the emotions.

My advice to you is find a 'normal' swinger couple, and experiment from there. It will keep your drama potential and relationship damage potential to the minimum. You might hate it all, you might want something different or you might just find your niche. As you gain confidence, and experience you can then try other avenues if you still want to.

[Rackir]

Originally Posted by **Lady Macbeth*

but being able to feel attracted, explore chemistry, and immediately tell my husband not out of guilt but out of excitement, was one of the most liberating, fun moments I can remember having in a long time.

In my opinion, that is what the lifestyle is all about. BEing able to feel these wonderful things without shame, and have them reinforced by being able to share them with the one you love.

[slevin]

I wish I could rate Chicups post because it's one of the best posts I've read in a long time.

[NCfuncouple98]

Originally Posted by slevin

I wish I could rate Chicups post because it's one of the best posts I've read in a long time.

And luckily I have spread enough love I was able to rate Chicup's post. And even told him that I love how he calls a spade, well, a spade. It's brutally honest, and so needed sometimes.

I have nothing to add other than read Chicup's post. Then read it again, talk about it, read it again, and talk some more.

Mr NC always picks on me for over-analyzing freaking every single thing in life. However, when it came to swinging, this was one area that I forced myself NOT to over-analyze. Why? Because none of it would do me any good until we were faced with the true possibility of having sex with other people. We only swing together in the same room. For us, we do not want to have sex without the other there. It's about us, together, as a couple. We don't want to just have sex, if we dd we would consider an open marriage. We wanted to explore, together.

You truly do not know how you will feel about it until you watch another woman having sex with your husband. Period. It didn't feel anything like I thought it would. Why? Cause you really just can't picture it or think about it or know what it's like until you do it. So you have to decide if together you want to risk the chance.

Mrs NC

[Sunswept]

Originally Posted by NCfuncouple98

:.....However, when it came to swinging, this was one area that I forced myself NOT to over-analyze. Why? Because none of it would do me any good until we were faced with the true possibility of having sex with other people....

Well said, one thing I can add to this and Chicup"s excellent post is:
How can you tell when you are over-analyzing?

I doubt anyone will argue a certain amount of research, analysis and discussion is not a good thing. But after a certain point, and when the discussions or thoughts seems like they are starting to go in circles, or competing theories start piling up, it's time to do some "reality tests".

For centuries very smart people constructed theories and chased their tails about how and why the Earth was the center of the universe. That was until Copernicus held those theories up to the test of direct observation.... after that it was back to the drawing board!

Originally Posted by **Lady Macbeth*

The last play we were involved in included each of us involved in a love scene with someone else (good friends both). His love scene was with someone he has an attraction towards although until our recent discussions did not feel comfortable sharing this with me. I found it exciting. When we were discussing (theory only) who is in our life currently that we feel attraction towards, he asked about the person in the same play whom I had shared a kiss with as part of a scene. I thought about it, and initially thought, "no, no attraction or chemistry there."

...Hadn't seen this person in over a week, before Macbeth and I began serious conversations (has it only been a week?) I looked at this person, and felt attraction and chemistry....

.....I had completely repressed the chemistry and attraction towards this person in the past out of fear, since we were in a love scene together, would kiss, etc I simply couldn't allow myself to go there....

.... being able to feel attracted, explore chemistry, and immediately tell my husband not out of guilt but out of excitement, was one of the most liberating, fun moments I can remember having in a long time.

Lady Macbeth, I see three really positive things here, even if you two decide to go no further with things.

1) This change seems like a big one from a week ago when in your first post you said you felt an erotic attraction to only one other person in your life. Seems like you discovered you can feel multiple attractions when you let the light shine? Part of honesty is honestly feeling and admiting to what you do feel, despite having once been told ( and internalized) that those feelings were invalid.

2) Seems like this is an example of the of sharing these sorts of sexual self discoveries with your mate and how you have discovered how sexual excitement coming from outside the relationship can increase sexual excitement within it?

3) Looks like what you once feared... is now a source of excitement!

The "what if" game (as Sweet_tna calls it!) was a source for great fun, provacation and excitement to my partner and I also! And it was something we always did, and we played that game everywhere. And not just with close ... or not so close... friends! Everyone within sight and of consenting age was an object of our dirty little game... hehe. You two in all likelyhood have already been the object of someone else's similar naughty game!

So... would it be too much of a stretch, or too dirty, for you to go there with this game? Do you think you could dare an experiment to see if when you look at or meet random strangers, you can sincerely check in with yourself to see if your body tells you if you want to fuck them? Something tells me you are ready to be a bit more dirty than you have been in the past...