Advice: Wife OK with fantasy, not with reality

[isikar]

My wife and I have been married 11 years and have had good sex life, but we have both acknowledged in recent months that our sex life is stale. I ran across an article about swinging and started checking it out and I like what I found. I though about it long and hard before I decided to bring it up with my wife. Overall, the conversation went very well. I didn't pop it out of the blue but segued into a conversation we were having about fantasies. She has know for some time that I fantasize about a threesome and it OK with it, so I mentioned that it was not that far a jump from threesome to foursome to moresome.

She did not object to the idea but I think she has trouble with the transition from fantasy to reality. She stated that she could see swinging in "some exotic location" but had a difficult time visualizing swinging here (Mississippi). Part of that is that in a fantasy you can control every aspect of what happens; reality isn't like that. You lose control. The other part of the issue there is that she is concerned that the quality of the menfolk won't live up to her fantasy. This is not that unrealistic a fear. The women here is MS tend to keep themselves up very well, but the men... not so much. We comment all the time when we go out to dinner about seeing beautiful women with absolute slobs of men.

I tried to paint the image that I fantasize about, which is having a couple or couples that we can be friend with outside of swinging but also enjoy playing with as well. Normal people like us with jobs and kids and flaws, but I don't think I sold it well.

Her other objection was that she wanted a man who thinks she is the only women in the world for him, and the idea that her man could contemplate having sex with another women was distressing. I handled it this way: I stated that she was the one I loved and adored, that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her, but that variety is good: I love a Ruth Chris Fillet Mignon, but I don't want one every night. Some times I want a hamburger. She grasped the analogy and stated that she wanted to expand our menu by added some light bondage, rougher sex, roll playing, etc.

In the end, my impression is that swinging is not off the table as a possibility, but I am going to have to tread carefully. I think that both these objections can be dealt with, but for now, I've put the issue of swinging on the back burner and am concentration of fulfilling her desire for expanded sex. My feeling is that this can only take us so far before it gets stale again. I could be wrong... maybe if the menu is big enough you never get bored. However, I do want to swing, so ultimately, I would like to assuage her objections and proceed.

Anybody have any ideas/suggestions?

[slevin]

Originally Posted by isikar

My wife and I have been married 11 years and have had good sex life, but we have both acknowledged in recent months that our sex life is stale. I ran across an article about swinging and started checking it out and I like what I found. I though about it long and hard before I decided to bring it up with my wife.

Hey and welcome to the board

I am glad to hear that you and your wife are talking more openly and are both invested in improving your relationship and your sex life. That is a great thing and even if you never swing you have set yourselves on a great path to maintaining a strong relationship and keeping it exciting.

All of that said, I think you mis-stepped with your approach to this in a few areas. Some of the way you put things here make me wonder: how would you feel if your wife told you tomorrow that she loves the fantasy, but never wants to even entertain the idea of making it a reality? How would you handle that?

I have more to say, but I don't want that question to get lost in with everything else

[fun4Ds]

Welcome to the swingers Board, isikar.

With how you explained things on a first post, it sure seems likely we might welcome you to the lifestyle as well, some day. Glad to hear your wife has a healthy attitude about everything so far. Thats a pretty good thing.

Enjoy the board together, Its a good place to get a wide viewpoint.

[isikar]

"how would you feel if your wife told you tomorrow that she loves the fantasy, but never wants to even entertain the idea of making it a reality? How would you handle that?"

Thanks for the quick response.

I would fell disappointed, but not crushed. I would take it as an road block but not the end of the road. I would try to ascertain her objections, if possible. From what I've read, some women won't even discuss the objections.

What I do for a living involves selling, and in selling, you have to learn how to overcome objections. You also have to believe in your product. In this case, I believe wholeheartedly that swinging would be beneficial to our marriage. This is not me just wanting to sleep with other women. I've lurked on boards like these and researched the issue fully. I've read the good and the bad and made a determination that our marriage could handle and benefit from swinging. So to keep the same analogy flowing, the prospect, my wife has indicated that she has objections is not ready to buy. From my part, I have pushed the features of swinging rather than the benefits. To some degree, that's all you can do on the opening conversation.

So how would I handle it? I would accept it for now, but I would also plan a strategy to subtly address her objections and that would put me in a place to casually ask again in 3-6 months.

Its also important to understand the vast changes my wife and I have gone through in the last few year. We used to uber-christians and now we're godless heathens. Yesterday my wife expressed an interest in wicca, which two years ago would have brought the heavens down. We used to have vanilla sex, now we are doing new and exciting things. Six months ago my wife wouldn't touch herself, now she will masturbate with me watching without issue. Point here is that our lives, beliefs, attitudes are changing rapidly. If things were more static I think I would have to make a harder choice. With our horizons constantly expanding, I think the possibility is very much alive.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by isikar

I would fell disappointed, but not crushed. I would take it as an road block but not the end of the road. I would try to ascertain her objections, if possible. From what I've read, some women won't even discuss the objections.

That's what I thought. And what if she made it clear she had entertained the idea, had weighed the options and she has decided that it isn't for her? She has no interest in ever doing it.

[isikar]

Originally Posted by slevin

That's what I thought. And what if she made it clear she had entertained the idea, had weighed the options and she has decided that it isn't for her? She has no interest in ever doing it.

It's interesting that you should ask that question because both my wife and I take pride in using logic and reason to make decisions. So if we reach that point where I believe that she has done as you say, i.e. weighed her options and made a rational decision, not from the gut, then I would drop it. Now, the corollary to that is, if not swinging, then what? We have both concluded that our sex life is in a rut, and I have brought swinging to the table as an option. If it is off the table, then what? That's probably a question for a marriage counselor and not a swingers forum, but it is a legitimate question.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by isikar

It's interesting that you should ask that question because both my wife and I take pride in using logic and reason to make decisions. So if we reach that point where I believe that she has done as you say, i.e. weighed her options and made a rational decision, not from the gut, then I would drop it. Now, the corollary to that is, if not swinging, then what? We have both concluded that our sex life is in a rut, and I have brought swinging to the table as an option. If it is off the table, then what? That's probably a question for a marriage counselor and not a swingers forum, but it is a legitimate question.

Ok cool. I was concerned that you were always going to view it as a sales job that can be overcome. That is probably true and even a woman who doesn't really want to do it could probably be convinced to try it anyway; but that generally doesn't end well.

I'll reply more fully to the original post in a little bit with some additional thoughts. But briefly; if your sexlife is stale and boring right now I would suggest finding a way to make it exciting just between the two of you without the fantasies of swinging involved. Explore the swinging when you have a healthy and exciting sex life and want to add even more to that. Using swinging to spice it up has a good chance of leading to bad things IMO. So explore the "what else" first.

[slevin]

Originally Posted by isikar

Overall, the conversation went very well. I didn't pop it out of the blue but segued into a conversation we were having about fantasies. She has know for some time that I fantasize about a threesome and it OK with it, so I mentioned that it was not that far a jump from threesome to foursome to moresome.

For future reference, escalating quickly from introducing the idea of swinging to her through to talking about 'moresomes' is probably a bit quick. All depends on how you talk about it, but one thing at a time is probably better

She did not object to the idea but I think she has trouble with the transition from fantasy to reality. She stated that she could see swinging in "some exotic location" but had a difficult time visualizing swinging here (Mississippi).

Some good summaries of likely causes of her perspective here, but I think you are missing the real reason she's feeling like a spontaneous fling on vacation is ok and actively seeking out people at home is less comfortable. For a lot of women the idea of something that "just happened", especially when she is far away from home, allows her to absolve herself of responsibility for what happened. She wants to do it, but mentally can't make herself ok with allowing herself to do it. So she'll prefer a situation where she can say something like: "well, we were on vacation, had a few drinks and I don't know what came over me...../it just happened/, that isn't me, it was just some crazy vacation experience". She is allowing the experience to happen without threatening her internal viewpoint of who she is.

Dealing with getting to a place where she is comfortable with who she is and will allow herself to experience her desires and know that she is still the same awesome women; still the respected wife/mother, still a good person, still a religious woman, still loved by her friends and family etc. That is the important part. Without her getting to that place there is likely always going to be drama and fallout from pursuing swinging.

I tried to paint the image that I fantasize about, which is having a couple or couples that we can be friend with outside of swinging but also enjoy playing with as well. Normal people like us with jobs and kids and flaws, but I don't think I sold it well.

You painted your fantasy; did you explore her fantasies? And not a directed "lets talk about your swinging fantasies" kind of discussion, just purely getting into what her fantasies might be. You say that until recently she was very reserved, so maybe she hasn't let herself fantasize before; what better time than now to start opening that up slowly! Allowing her to develop whatever fantasies she will come up with whether they are swinging related or dressing up like Minnie Mouse.

Her other objection was that she wanted a man who thinks she is the only women in the world for him, and the idea that her man could contemplate having sex with another women was distressing. I handled it this way: I stated that she was the one I loved and adored, that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her, but that variety is good: I love a Ruth Chris Fillet Mignon, but I don't want one every night. Some times I want a hamburger. She grasped the analogy and stated that she wanted to expand our menu by added some light bondage, rougher sex, roll playing, etc.

Being frank I think you fucked up here and set things back a few paces. She was warming up to the idea and was expressing her true fear to you that she's not enough for you. Your response was that you love her, but sometimes she just isn't enough for you.

Ouch.

I know it isn't what you meant and that probably isn't how you interpreted what she was trying to tell you, but I wholeheartedly think that was what she meant (based on the tiny fraction of information I have available here!).

You know why I'm interested in swinging with my wife? It isn't because I want some variety in who I have sex with (though that is nice too). It's because I enjoy exploring that variety /with her/. Now, I probably just gave you a magic word there to help her start to overcome that initial hesitance at sharing her man, but my purpose in saying it was to try and get you to stop and think about your own motivations for doing this. Are you bored fucking your wife and purely want to fuck someone else? Or do you want to explore the idea of swinging with her; seeing her pleasure etc.? Not asking the question to you directly here; that is more something for you to ponder introspectively.

In the end, my impression is that swinging is not off the table as a possibility, but I am going to have to tread carefully. I think that both these objections can be dealt with, but for now, I've put the issue of swinging on the back burner and am concentration of fulfilling her desire for expanded sex.

I think your best bet is to stop thinking about this as a sales job and stop thinking about her viewpoint and feelings as objectives. She is your wife, you are a team and you should start approaching this as a team. They aren't objections, they are how she feels. Help her work through them and come to whatever conclusion she arrives at, whether that is trying swinging or not. She does have the right approach though, as I mentioned in my other post; stop thinking about swinging at all and start thinking about improving your sex life just between the two of you. Build yourselves a sex life that fulfills you so that swinging is just another fun thing you do in an already incredible sex life. Don't try and make swinging the thing that puts the spark back in your sex life.

I am still a bit concerned that deep down you have decided you want to swing no matter what. That if she says no and means it you will still be focusing on trying to make her do it with you; that potentially you'll do it anyway even if she's not involved. I hope I'm wrong and that it's just your overzealous salemen personality peeking through. I just hope you didn't do a sales job on me telling me what I wanted to hear so I'd expand on my perspective of your situation

One last opinion; you mentioned that both you and your wife think logically and work through decisions like that. I am sure she can be very logical, but in my experience there is a big difference between men and women in this area. Men are primarily logical reasoners who can also be emotional; women are primarily emotional reasoners who are also logical. This isn't to say that women are always emotional in a negative connotation, just that in their reasoning it is often their emotional thinking that takes charge. In a situation like sex and relationships that is even more true, in my experience, due to the highly emotional aspect of what is involved. So, while she may logically reason her head into something around swinging, I believe you are still going to have to deal with having her emotional reasoning come to the same conclusion.

Hope this was useful and gave some food for thought. I also hope I didn't offend any women with that last paragraph lol, totally not my intention and I can expand on it a bit further if I irked anyone with that opinion. As I said, it's not meant as emotional in a negative way.

[cplnuswing]

It sounds like you are on the right track, and it is something that you both have at least enough interest in / lack of objection to so that you were able to have a good open discussion about it, which is a prerequisite now and continues to be so even in the future if you do end up swinging. No matter how successful it has been up to that point, if the communication stops, there will likely be a problem.

Originally Posted by isikar

I though about it long and hard before I decided to bring it up with my wife.

It's also good that you thought about it and did some research before even bringing it up, assuming that your motivation was to have a good grasp of the reality of the subject to help answer the inevitable questions that would come up with good solid information when you had your conversation. You've found a great source of that here, so you both may enjoy spending some time reading through the forums.

Originally Posted by isikar

She has know for some time that I fantasize about a threesome and it OK with it, so I mentioned that it was not that far a jump from threesome to foursome to moresome.

I'd be careful here. Her knowing you have a fantasy, and her coming to believe that you want the fantasy to become reality so bad that it stands to cause harm to the relationship you have with each other, may become a problem that gets in the way of continuing to have open communication about the subject. I'd also be concerned if I were her that you are making a pretty big jump from your threesome fantasy to all of a sudden talking about moresomes. What's she interested in? Some folks are just into threesomes, some couple to couple foursome, same room or not, etc, etc. You may be pushing too far, too fast and making some big leaps here. A good bit of advice that you'll read a lot on here is to go at the speed of slowest person, that may be something to keep in mind during your next conversation.

Originally Posted by isikar

She did not object to the idea but I think she has trouble with the transition from fantasy to reality. She stated that she could see swinging in "some exotic location" but had a difficult time visualizing swinging here (Mississippi).

I think that is common for several reasons, one of which is some people just seem to have an easier time "letting go" when they are away from the familiar surroundings and routines of home. Nobody knows you, easier to step outside your normal persona, and so on.

Originally Posted by isikar

The other part of the issue there is that she is concerned that the quality of the menfolk won't live up to her fantasy. This is not that unrealistic a fear.

I tried to paint the image that I fantasize about, which is having a couple or couples that we can be friend with outside of swinging but also enjoy playing with as well. Normal people like us with jobs and kids and flaws, but I don't think I sold it well.

The swinging subset comes from the population at large, so that means all shapes, colors, and sizes. Some good looking, some not so much, some easy to talk to, some not so much, and so on. What makes the chemistry is different for everyone too, so one person's answers won't necessarily match another's.

Maybe a visit to a local swingers club or some meet and greets would be a good idea - no pressure and no expectations, just go to see what the crowd is like and to have a fun evening out together. This would help her too see that swingers do have jobs, kids, mortgages, just like normal people, but when we go out, we just hang around some really cool people and like to have a little more fun than most

Originally Posted by isikar

Her other objection was that she wanted a man who thinks she is the only women in the world for him, and the idea that her man could contemplate having sex with another women was distressing. I handled it this way: I stated that she was the one I loved and adored, that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her, but that variety is good

That's a common concern and a common response. Both are perfectly legitimate points of view, it's just something that you will have to work through together. But again, the fact that you are even able to have this discussion is a plus, whether it ends up in deciding to swing or not.

Originally Posted by isikar

but for now, I've put the issue of swinging on the back burner and am concentration of fulfilling her desire for expanded sex.

Sounds like a good course of action. Work together to heat up your sex life and improve communication and then see what happens moving at the speed of the slowest person. You really can't go wrong with that, it's pluses all around.

Good luck and please come back to let us know how things turn out.

[truckerbuddy]

I try to keep things short..

There are 2 things that life need to make it work. It don't mater if it is a good friend or a good strong relationship,

1- Having open honest communications.

2- Be upfront. ( don't go behind her back ) look at this sit together.

Be open and honest by telling her what you would like to see and or experience. and ask her what she would like to see or experience. together you can fulfill your fantasy's.

By working together there may come a time that the two of you can step through the swinging doors to the lifestyle.




good luck. hope to see you in side one day

[sereneiders]

Well, my first inpression here is: she's right, you're wrong.

It wasn't written on stone (an not even in paper) that fantasies are meant to happen in reality. If that were true, there would be so many bosses and mothers in law murdered that half of the world population would have to be cops to handle the cases.

Fantasies are a cool way to release stress and to figure out "what if" you were someone else than the one you are (implying you're not the same than the one in the fantasy), or "how would" you deal with a theorethical scenario, or simply a way to play with thoughts that would be too dangerous physically or emotionally for you to bring to reality.

And this works the same way for both of you; let me give you an example:

Originally Posted by isikar

I tried to paint the image that I fantasize about, which is having a couple or couples that we can be friend with outside of swinging but also enjoy playing with as well. Normal people like us with jobs and kids and flaws, but I don't think I sold it well.

Ok, I don't know wheter you actually believe this or if it's a way to handle her objections, but this picture comes from your fantasy and this sort of relationships (friends first, then sex) become so conflictive that hardly you end up having sex, even more, if you read around, is the sort of scenarios that most swingers would deem unadvisable to pursue.

So your wife require to "stage" the fantasy in a remote place where no one would be able to trace your two back to your real life (the risk to avoid), and instead of staging, you're writting a script for the other actors that the experience says it is an unrealistic behavior, so unrealistic as travelling across the world to have sex.

If fantasies were lies of some sort, you're not attempting to disclose a lie with a truth but with another lie. The fact is, both of you have some desires that you two deem as risky (even when not pondering the same risks) and by now you enjoy releasing the stress by sharing and staging the fantasy in a "feasible" way to handle it. But your wife seems to be more aware than you about the risks.

You have to accept fantasies are deemed to remain as such, and I strongly believe that once you accept that fact you're opening the door to actually bring some of those fantasies to reality, since just once you're no longer in a rush to do it, you can take the time to assest and handle the risks with a cold blood. At least, this is what happened to us, it took 15 years for us to start thinking of swinging as a real posibility. I once was much in the same place you're today and my wife was reluctanct, until I gave up and let it go for good. Then she began to give it a serious thought.

There's a motto a lot of swingers share: "we're swingers because we CAN, and not because we NEED. Should we find out we're doing this because of a NEED, then we shouldn't swing anymore".

Your wife may perceive your attempts to convince her and overcome her fears (with your own set of fantasies) as the risk of facing something you NEED, hence once she gives up should she regret it, it would be hard for her to "bring you back".

So, let it go. She already know what you want, what you fantasize and, the good news is, she share those fantasies. Allow her to give this a thought without your interference, give her time and space, and be gladly up to the chance that you two may never swing... and then it MAY happen.

As part of this, invite her to read and participate in the board on her own. Allow her (and yourself) to replace some features of your fantasies that comes from the lack of information about the lifestyle and the swingers, by actual information from the swingers. Allow yourseves to relplace the fantasized risks with the information about the real risks to face, because they're not as many nor the same you may think.

[Additude]

Unless it's the womans idea, it's a process pal and your just going to have to pay your dues like many of us before you and suffer through the process.

That's all it is. Her mind needs to switch from the fantasy island sex to realistic recreational sex. Society has molded her mind to believe one man, one woman, one marriage, one sex partner.

Men are far more promiscious than women, however women (I speak in general terms here, I know it's not true for all women) have a deeper, more controlled promiscuity that needs to be un-bonded of social rules by methodical mind-set cognition. Which means that she is just going to have to work into it and that just takes time.

If you force it....1. (How Men Think) you'll be on a path of trouble.....if you allow it to take it's course....2. (How Women Think) you may be in for a life of sexual freedom, a new outlook on your relationship and a new outlook on life in general.

So keep the swinging idea in the foreground, let the woman know it's about her and you love her and only her and let it take it's course.

Don't think your wife is only into the fantasy and not the reality. She is into the reality of it...that's exactly why she is being cautious and focused.

[isikar]

First of all, thanks for all the responses. I figure I've got one shot at this so I want to make sure I follow the right path.

I do want to address a couple of things:

1)its difficult when asking a delicate question to a group of strangers to decide how much information should be included. I probably cut as much from my first post as I left.

2)swinging is a interest to me, not an obsession. To assuage Slevin's concerns, I'll not force anyone to do anything, especially not my wife. I'll not promise to never revisit the issue: life changes, kids go to college, etc., so if the wind seems to be blowing that way I may set sail.

3)I tend to use the terms fantasy and visualize as synonyms. This is not correct. I don't know if I ever really fantasize. I might define a fantasy as something you would probably never do in real life, while visualization is seeing yourself in a situation that could be real. My wife tends to actually fantasize about situations that cannot become real. So there is a disconnect there because I don't visualize something that cannot become real. To me I don't see the point in visualizing a threesome if you don't want to actually do it. I understand that I may be alone in that viewpoint and that my wife does not share it.

Anyway, thanks again for your helpfulness.