Wife has morals

[wiretuggin]

Hi guys, this is my first post.
Let me fill you in and go from there. I have tried talking with my wife about swinging for about five years now, she seemed interested about year three. We purchased a couple of documentarys and talked of going to a club however we were waiting to finish having children first. Now thats done she has seemingly changed her mind and asked me to drop the subject. We traditionally go on a mountain vacation with another vanilla couple twice a year and each trip gets a little more risque. This last trip we were having sex in the hot tub while the other husband was trying to get his wife to follow our lead, however she wouldnt. She got out for a bit and we continued on having sex. While having sex I asked the husband to touch my wifes breast which he did til his wife returned from the kitchen. My wife turned into such a sexual animal that night, and also the next night when we returned home. All this made me bring up the subject again with a nasty argument following. I browsed alot of swinger sites copying and pasting articles of positive nature and asked her to read it stating we would have an honest adult conversation about it. When we sat down to talk about it she told me the hot tub incident did excite her. However she says the whole idea of a mmf situation is just wrong. When I ask her what is wrong about it she cant clarify a reason, just that its wrong. I believe we are having moral issues and my question is how to get around these issues, it seems clearly she enjoyed the extra attention but just deems it wrong. FYI, we will be returning to the mountains in early September for another trip with the same vanilla couple. All help and advice will be much appreciated, Thank you in advance.

[ViSexual]

I'm afraid if you try to encourage her too much it's only going to work against you.

And, don't try to set something up. She'll see through that in a heartbeat.

Your best hope is that she'll allow something similar to last year's experience to happen again this year. This ball is completely in her court!

Your best move is to not move. Smile, tell her you love her often, and see to it that there's absolutely no drama on the trip.

Good luck and enjoy it no matter what, if anything at all, happens.

[SW_PA_Couple]

Your situation is not unusual, as I'm sure you know from the research you have conducted. I read the stories of the reluctant spouses with interest but seldom put forward advice. So I will leave you with this: WELCOME to the world of actively-posting members here at The Swingersboard and I hope others can lend the right advice.

[bbarnsworth]

How you get around it isn't the point really. It's how your wife thinks things through. Wrapping her brain about swinging is obviously hard. She is imbued with society's rules that sex is strictly a one-on-one thing, and that a married couple should never ever engage in sex activities outside of marriage. We're raised with this programming. It's drummed into us from an early age. Our society is filled with it. Anyone who ventures outside of it is (insert pejorative terms).

She enjoyed the other man playing with her breasts. That's great, and it may have planted seeds in her mind. But all you can do is open doors. You've opened many. But, you've had arguments over it. This is not good. I would encourage you to find a way to discuss swinging without it resulting in an argument, even if it's only slightly about swinging.

Also, specifically with regards to the other couple; are they swingers? Does the husband have permission to be playing with your wife? If not, the other wife may not be too pleased to see her husband playing with your wife's breasts. The other wife not being comfortable having sex in front of you and your wife is probably a hint that they are not swingers, and encouraging the other husband to play with your wife is not a good idea. This is a drama bomb waiting to happen.

Be mature, be adult. Discuss the September trip with your wife, and see how she feels about having sex in front of the other couple again. Don't layer anything else on it. Just sex with them watching. Don't tell her that you'll ask the other husband to touch her again, in fact quite the opposite. If she's agreeable, discuss it with the other couple. Be upfront about it. Inform them you and your wife would enjoy having sex in front of them again, and see how they feel about it. They don't have to have sex in front of you, just see how they feel. Maybe it can move up to having sex outside of the hot tub, in full view of them.

Your wife and my wife probably matched each other in their opinions of swinging ~5 years ago. Even 1 year ago, had I asked my wife she would have probably rejected it right out of hand. But 9 months ago, she verbally expressed it might be nice to have multiple men to massage her entire body at once. Since then, every step of the way has been a very slow progression. We talk frequently about swinging. We've never had an argument about it, but in general in our relationship we actively work to understand our disagreements rather than argue over them. Fast forward to now, and my wife thoroughly enjoys swinging. Just last night we were having sex and she was telling me how much she enjoyed her last swing partner and how much she looks forward to having sex with him again. Very hot!

It is possible for your wife to become comfortable with the idea of swinging. But, you can not pressure. Ever. All you can do is open doors. For my wife and I, one of the key things was understanding that the knee-jerk reaction against swinging was based on society's rules. I.e., other people were dictating to us how to live our lives. We do take counsel of other's advice, but we're not going to let them run our lives.

[socolais]

The advise above is right on the money.

I think "swinging" is not so much of a destination, but perhaps a journey. There are no real changes when one finally can honestly wear the swinger badge. And the sexual excitement level doesn't necessarily increase when the activities are more swinger-like. Think of all the husbands in the world that envy the sexual openness you two have already experienced. Be an optimist and enjoy what you have right now. Thrill in the excitement of exploring new boundaries together in a way that's comfortable for both of yall.

"Swinging" may happen for yall, one of these days, and there's lots of fun between here and there. Stop and smell the roses along the way....

[JustAskJulie]

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the situation you put her in (in the hot tub) WAS WRONG! And that may be what is standing out in her head.

You asked a male friend of yours who is married, whose wife was present but not in sight line to touch your wife, without his wife's knowledge or consent. That may well be what is pressing in the back of your wife's head. The fact that what you basically did was invite your male friend to cheat on his wife. His wife was not interested in even having sex in the same hot tub. He stopped touching your wife when she returned and could see what is going on. SO now he's lying to his wife (and so are you and your wife). Think about how guilty she might be feeling about what she's just done to her friend.

You need to realize that in doing that, you have basically given your wife the idea (whether she consciously realizes it or not) that swinging and cheating are the same thing. Chances are that this is exactly what she sees as so wrong with a mmf scenario.

[screaminggood]

To expound on what Julie just said, you not only gave her the idea that cheating and swinging go together, you may have also made her wonder about your own fidelity, i.e. "if he's okay with ____ playing with my nipples, who's nipples is he playing with?" Tread carefully.

[JandY]

Originally Posted by wiretuggin

Hi guys, this is my first post.
Let me fill you in and go from there. I have tried talking with my wife about swinging for about five years now, she seemed interested about year three. We purchased a couple of documentarys and talked of going to a club however we were waiting to finish having children first. Now thats done she has seemingly changed her mind and asked me to drop the subject. We traditionally go on a mountain vacation with another vanilla couple twice a year and each trip gets a little more risque. This last trip we were having sex in the hot tub while the other husband was trying to get his wife to follow our lead, however she wouldnt. She got out for a bit and we continued on having sex. While having sex I asked the husband to touch my wifes breast which he did til his wife returned from the kitchen. My wife turned into such a sexual animal that night, and also the next night when we returned home. All this made me bring up the subject again with a nasty argument following. I browsed alot of swinger sites copying and pasting articles of positive nature and asked her to read it stating we would have an honest adult conversation about it. When we sat down to talk about it she told me the hot tub incident did excite her. However she says the whole idea of a mmf situation is just wrong. When I ask her what is wrong about it she cant clarify a reason, just that its wrong. I believe we are having moral issues and my question is how to get around these issues, it seems clearly she enjoyed the extra attention but just deems it wrong. FYI, we will be returning to the mountains in early September for another trip with the same vanilla couple. All help and advice will be much appreciated, Thank you in advance.

You sure you've not been transferring your fantasy to your wife?

Not being rude, but there are feelings, emotions, loyalties and a whole gamut of stuff for EACH of you to jointly and separately consider when thinking along these lines.

It would be hard enough if your hoped for/intended initiation-partners were committed (but you say they are vanilla, too).

So now you gotta allow for all of their fears, guilt and confusions too.

Be careful what you wish for because it might just come true.

And once it's done, it can't be undone.

[VegasLee]

Originally Posted by wiretuggin

Now thats done she has seemingly changed her mind and asked me to drop the subject.

What part of that statement from her to you did you not understand?

Have respect for your wife. She asked you to drop it. She does not desire to be a swinger and you put her in positions that she would rather not be in.

You have choices to make. Love her and respect her wishes and forget about the swinging or move on and have your swinging in another life time with someone else.

[NCfuncouple98]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the situation you put her in (in the hot tub) WAS WRONG! And that may be what is standing out in her head.

You asked a male friend of yours who is married, whose wife was present but not in sight line to touch your wife, without his wife's knowledge or consent. That may well be what is pressing in the back of your wife's head. The fact that what you basically did was invite your male friend to cheat on his wife. His wife was not interested in even having sex in the same hot tub. He stopped touching your wife when she returned and could see what is going on. SO now he's lying to his wife (and so are you and your wife). Think about how guilty she might be feeling about what she's just done to her friend.

You need to realize that in doing that, you have basically given your wife the idea (whether she consciously realizes it or not) that swinging and cheating are the same thing. Chances are that this is exactly what she sees as so wrong with a mmf scenario.

What Julie just stated is dead-on. The husband did not his wife's permission or approval, and your wife now feels "dirty". Swinging is not about feeling dirty. It's about mutual consent, from all parties involved, and to enhance your sexuality and sexual enjoyment as a couple. Since this was a couple, but only 1/2 was involved, that does not constitute mutual consent.

Your wife may be feeling extreme guilt over that situation. She may have enjoyed it in the heat of the moment, but what was "wrong" was that it wasn't really swinging. It was a married man who touched her without his wife's permission, and it also sounds like without your wife's permisison. You asked him to touch her in the heat of the moment. Did she actually consent, or was she so wrapped up in the sexuality that she never really responded with a "yes" or "no". If she never had that opportunity to give her own consent, that could also be the cause of her morality issues.

You two have to open up to each other, and really talk about that moment in the hot tub. It can't be a drunken conversation, a heat-of-the-moment argument, or a middle-of-sex discussion. 100% sober at the breakfast table over coffee conversation. Talk it out. Try to get her to open up about why she is so bothered and upset about swinging. You say she once seemed interested. So talk to her, and listen to her, about why she feels differently now.

Forget getting around any issues. And forget trying to "get her" to swing. Shut up and listen to what she has to say, and take it from there. And if she tells you there is no chance in hell she would ever consider swinging, you have to accept that. But the real issue is, if she was at one point considering it herself, and now shuts down when the discussion comes up, there is something bothering her that you do not know or understand yet. Break down the barrier of communication, and you just might get there. No pressure, no force. Get inside her head and her shoes and understand where she's coming from

Mr & Mrs NC

[sexylady1970]

Originally Posted by ViSexual

I'm afraid if you try to encourage her too much it's only going to work against you.

And, don't try to set something up. She'll see through that in a heartbeat.

Your best hope is that she'll allow something similar to last year's experience to happen again this year. This ball is completely in her court!

Your best move is to not move. Smile, tell her you love her often, and see to it that there's absolutely no drama on the trip.

Good luck and enjoy it no matter what, if anything at all, happens.

110% agree with this post. Either she is or she is't. Too much pressure and you will find yourself VERY alone. Let her make the moves if any. If and when she does, just encourage her gently and that is the best you can hope for.

"sexy"

[Trace Ekies]

I agree with all...wholeheartedly.

Julie hit on my first thought...thanks for stealing my thunder.

Most importantly...and never forget this...not for a minute...we as a group have morals...to have sex with one's friends with the permission of all is NOT immoral. To put your wife in the position that you did, as Julie stated, IS immoral.

To make the statement, "Wife has morals" when referring to her reluctance to do what myself and other board members do is a cheap shot. I feel certain that what you said was meant well and poorly worded but this deep seated attitude may be part of the problem.

Trace

[fun4Ds]

Sure sounds like you tried to test the water and found it to be, confusingly cold.

As far as morals go, Mrs fun has a pretty high standard and quite frankly, so do most of the swinger women I have ever met.

Without knowing the couple you are vacationing with, or the conversations you have had. I would say, don't make the same mistakes twice.

OK, I have to ask. Why did you have the guy touch your wife while the other wife was gone ?

We don't find ways to go around our morals, we meet them head on and accept how we feel. Sometimes, things change.....

I don't understand why the argument had to ensue. You tried something at the spur of the moment. Then wanted to ask questions and make your point, right ? Kind of hard to argue if your just listening calmly.

Do you feel like you gained anything, from what your wife had to say ?

Sometimes its important to let our partners stand their ground. Everyone deserves that !

Now, you need to act more as a guest on the ground your wife stands on. Respect how she feels and still being yourself, has a certain balance you need to figure out.

That goes for your friends as well......

[wiretuggin]

For all the support, I thank you guys, For all the Flamers heres an update. We are going back to the mountains in two weeks, yes with a hot tub, yes with the same couple who are now trading pics with us. Also my wife has been researching swinging online, purchased a group sex dvd on her own, and agreed to a double nipple tequila shot from me and my friend. We talk openly about the situation thats going to take place in the hot tub. I have not pressured her in any way since the last trip. Also after the argument I explained my side of Swinging to help her understand my feelings, so now we have conversations about the subject and she is interested. However she still has a moral dilemma, which is why she has been research christianity and swinging. She stated she will be in the hot tub totally nude with us, assuring we would each get a nipple full of salt, followed by a shot of tequila, and a bite of lime. Shes not committing to anything but that, and I will not push past that. The whole original argument was basicly denial of her own feelings and premise it was a way for me to sleep with other women, which at this moment Im in no rush to do. I just want her to enjoy herself.

[Alura]

There is a website for christian swingers. I'm sorry I don't know the link but someone else here will surely post it. Perhaps you can encourage your wife to have a look at it.

Also, you might point out that Jesus' teachings did not vilify sex. That came after his death from Saul of Tarsus, a hero of the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine, who ordered that the Bible be assembled ca. 300AD. Unfortunately, Saul's writings were heavily used in the book.

Mr. Alura