Looking for guidance and direction from others

[wpcplindy]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I have to agree with this.




There was also something in your first post that really stood out to me and bothered me


The fact that you doubt her honesty on this statement is an issue. Maybe she did go further, maybe she didn't. But, to swing you both have to be able to trust each other completely. Until you stop doubting what she has told you (and maybe it's because she tells you more) and until she can trust and feel comfortable to tell you everything about how she feels, you won't be able to successfully swing. You don't have the right level of relationship yet.

As others said, have an open an honest conversation with her about swinging OUTSIDE of the bedroom, with your clothes on and your hands nowhere near her genitals or yours.

Yes I also lean in this direction, as i said I was very shocked when she said that and of course I told her I would love watching that, then I followed up with who else would she enjoy that with and I named off a few and got a couple no's but got several yes's,. The subject somehow got brought up this week again and she asked what I would be doing if she was licking a pussy, I said I can be voyeur and just sit back and play with myself or I might just have to slide it in her while she is busy, all she had responded with was really thats all that you would do, I replied that hey I would be good with just watching that happen and that whatever happened she would have to lead me.


I completely trust her!!! the reason added my opinion is over the course of our relationship she has shared with me more details about that night. I hope she did partake in the activities, but to be honest it irrelevant because it was before we met. She knows I enjoy hearing about her previous experiences.

[wpcplindy]

Originally Posted by Additude

This sounds pretty much like the normal course of action with a lot of couples. Very few couples just dive in. Most progress slowly, with the woman being the most hesitant, for a multitude of reasons.
What you didn't say in your post was "Why your wife is being hesitant" at this point. I think you don't know totally how to approach this, because your not sure where to start with her.

Your right on here I am not sure how to really approach this, when I first told her early on when dating about how I would love to watch her with a another guy, she was offended and border line pissed, she said she was very confused why I would want to see her in action with another guy. I just explained how it turned me on. Sense then we have had a couple good conversations out of the bedroom about it and she has seemed to really open up and talk about it more as well as now we occasionally tease each other in and out of the bedroom on introducing a extra male at times.

I suggest a healthy conversation with your wife over the subject, understand what it is she is feeling, why she is feeling it and what your both going to do about it.

We have had a few very good conversations in the last few years. It has gone from
"No way and offended" to,
"if she wasn't in a serious relationship she would do it without a second thought"
"she didn't think she could ever do that", then it was its
"your fantasy",
the one we had a few weeks ago was she couldn't do it with any of my buddies and not with anyone from the town we live in

I think your goal is to make her comfortable with your feelings on the subject. I'm sure your wife doesn't want to put her marriage at risk and she is probably more concerned about your actions than her's regarding swinging.

My personal take this goes from she is willing to test the waters but not with any of my buddies ( that is fine with me don't want one any of my buddies involved) But then at times I think its just my wanting to that I miss understand that maybe she is just playing along with the fantasy.

Once you know where "she is coming from" you'll better understand your angle of approach.

Yes we need a good sit down chat about it to find out what her thoughts are, as well as to reassure her that I love her no matter what direction it takes, and that our relationship is all that matters.
Over the last year she has really seemed to open up and express her desires more, We were chatting one afternoon and the topic of watching porn had come up , I asked her if she ever watched the porn tapes that we have and she admitted she watches them fairly often when she masturbates, I was kinda shocked i had no idea she ever got them out on her own and watched them.

I don't want to push her into anything so I am just taking it slow but at the same time looking for how others had gotten past if this point if at all.

[lizandtom]

Hate to burst your bubble, but if it didn't happen at Desire, either Hedo or Temptations (or any type of resort like that), it probably isn't going to happen. IMHO it sounds much more built up in your head than hers, and she is trying to keep you interested by mentioning fantasies, but it probably won't go further than that.

Our first foray in the lifestyle after getting a few years of FF hints was a trip to Hedo III; my idea, but to satisfy her curiosity (which she didn't reality admit at the time). It was do or die time, and she did without encouragement from me (ok maybe a little from Senior Sambuca) but nonetheless she took to it like a fish to water.

[wpcplindy]

Originally Posted by lizandtom

Hate to burst your bubble, but if it didn't happen at Desire, either Hedo or Temptations (or any type of resort like that), it probably isn't going to happen. IMHO it sounds much more built up in your head than hers, and she is trying to keep you interested by mentioning fantasies, but it probably won't go further than that.

Yes I have often thought that if it hasn't happened yet that it probably isn't going to and several times I have just put it out of my mind, We have only been to Desire once and was only for 4 nights, We have a trip planed to return this summer for 9 nights. We have never been to Hedo or Temptation, Only to Grand Lido Braco and Negril, in Jamaica

Our first foray in the lifestyle after getting a few years of FF hints was a trip to Hedo III; my idea, but to satisfy her curiosity (which she didn't reality admit at the time). It was do or die time, and she did without encouragement from me (ok maybe a little from Senior Sambuca) but nonetheless she took to it like a fish to water.

We had a nice open chat this weekend and talked a lot about fantasy's mine and hers, She openly admitted that she would enjoy being in a orgy and watching others as well as others watching her, but that she would be very hesitate at any swapping of partners, she said she loved being watched and went on to say that our first trip to Desire when we were having sex on the beach beds and she noticed 2 couples watching her get fucked and then watching the men get hard really turned her on. When we talked about her playing with a female she said that she wouldn't know what to do or if she could lick another pussy because she was more into enjoying sucking a cock but did finish with she would be open to try if in the right environment.
While she was explaining and talking about a FF I stuck my hands in her pants and she felt like I had just filled her with cum she was so so wet.
On the MFM fantasy didn't get as much into that as I was hopping to we got interrupted by a knock on the door. But did get how she thought that it was a hot fantasy of mine and if she wasn't married she would do it if the right environment presented itself, I told her I would never want her to do anything that she wasn't comfy in doing but did ask her to explain why she would do MFM with me and another male if we were not married but in a serious relationship, the response I got was hopeful she was worried about what I would think of her if she did that sense now we are married. I responded that if we were ever in a situation were it could happen that I would enjoy and get turned if she would open up to that,

We did continue with chatting about it after our interruption and I firmly now believe that there could be some type of play in our future, I got most out of our chat was in line with more what if our friends and family would find out more than it will never happen.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by wpcplindy

The subject somehow got brought up this week again and she asked what I would be doing if she was licking a pussy, I said I can be voyeur and just sit back and play with myself or I might just have to slide it in her while she is busy, all she had responded with was really thats all that you would do, I replied that hey I would be good with just watching that happen and that whatever happened she would have to lead me.

I think your wife's hesitancy to swing has more to do with how she feels she'd react if you played with other women, not with how you will react if you see her with other men (as you've mentioned).

I get the feeling from your posts that she'd be more interested in actively playing (intercourse/oral with men and play with women) while you are the voyeur when she plays. I think the only thing she may be comfortable with is you playing with her.

Have you considered this?

When you used to swing, before meeting your wife, how involved were you in swinging? Were you married or in a committed relationsip at the time? Did you play with other women and full swap?

If you are absolutely certain that you will never have any interest in playing with other women, and you would be okay with being a voyeur only (or only play with your wife during MFM/FMF), swinging may work for you and your wife. If, however, you think you may want more from swinging, be certain you discuss this with your wife now, not later.

LM

[lizandtom]

Originally Posted by wpcplindy

... I got most out of our chat was in line with more what if our friends and family would find out more than it will never happen.

That sounds pretty key and familiar with couples (mostly the female 1/2) we've seen around our community about swinging.

Sounds like she is afraid to take it further because of being outed. I have to guess that she comes from a tight family, a lot of brothers and/or sisters, folks still alive and active in their kids lives, maybe?

It is hard to live the 'secret life' when you have close family 'visiting' a lot and involved in what's going on in your lives.

I would try and convince your wife that your time (for the two of you) is your time, and what you two do is solely your business and not anybody elses. Find a way of telling family when they ask, when you've gotten a sitter on a Saturday night lined up, that you two are going out. 'Out where?' should be met with, 'oh, we're not sure yet, just playing it by ear; maybe dinner, movie, a little dancing, whatever.' Never fully explain, never fully apologize; now get your wife to see it this way and it will probably start to happen for you.

Of course this is all conjecture, so fill in where appropriate lol. good luck.

[wpcplindy]

A brief update on our progress,
We just returned from our second trip to Desire resort and we had a great time as well as some very hot sex.
The wife is still confusing me but I am beginning to understand her a bit more and with the good feedback on this site it helps me understand the wife's conflicting statements and actions on this topic.
Well this trip the wife was bit more playful than our last trip, We had a great room that walked right out on to the beach beds, and even though the were signs that restricted sex on the beach beds there was plenty going on,
Wife and I had several conversations with other couples on the topic of swinging and her comments have not changed at all, but her actions are 100% opposite of what she says.
On our first night there spent the afternoon on the beach bed the went to the hot tub, there was a few couples enjoying drinks and conversation and we struck up a conversation with one couple then while I was chatting with the Husband my wife decided it was time to get me hard and suck me off in front of this couple so I just relaxed and enjoyed. The other couple just seemed to want to continue chatting while I enjoyed my wife and her talented oral I was receiving. Forward to the next evening in the hot tub it was very full and we had been chatting with a few couples sitting next to us while across from us was a couple FFM action on the swim up bar stool, The next thing the wife did that surprised me was she turned me around so I was in front of her and guided my cock into her pussy while she watch the show and would tell me what was going on behind me.
That night we to the disco and was watching the judging of the Pimp and Ho costume party and wife asked me where are the people going behind the bar, I told her it was the party room were couples wet to play, She grabbed my hand and took me back there so she could see it, then we went back to our seats to enjoy the rest of the judging. Later she says let go so I get up and I started to walk to the disco exit she said no she wanted to go fuck in the party room, so off we went, unfortunately we were the only couple in there to start, but we still had a great time, when we were finished we noticed that a few couples had entered the room and had been watching us.
The following night again she took me to the party room and this time it was very full, but a couple made room for us next to them, we were watching and just rubbing each other when she decided it was time for me to get on top, While I was having me way with her the female next to us just started caressing my wife’s chest, I wasn’t sure how the wife was going to react and not wanting the fun to stop I let it go on for a few minutes then ended up having to slide her back due to her head being pushed into the ladies leg next to us. As I pulled her back the female stopped her caressing.
We continued for a while and my wife would be watching the other couples and having several orgasms herself, then we switched to her on top and while in this position a couple behind us started caressing her chest and pinching her nipples, until she had several more orgasms, then she needed a rest and I needed to recover also so we laid on our side with her facing out watching the 2 couples across from us and the FFM on the floor. I started to rise again and went to slide into her she whispered in my ear,” no stick it in my ass” So I did as I was told… (This was the first time ever she has done anal with me she always said its exit only)
Well as I was enjoying my treat I was trying to rub her clit and she was very very aggressive and vocal and said no finger my pussy, I of course did as instructed and tried my best but with me in her ass and the way we were positioned I couldn’t keep my fingers in her pussy, The couple on the floor must have overheard her and could see that I was having some difficulty so the female took the opportunity to help me out.
Now with the woman’s finger in my wife’s pussy me in her ass I must admit I didn’t last long but did hold out until my wife had a major orgasm then I followed, we rested for awhile got up and both walked out of the party room with me carrying the few clothes we had and wife naked with cum running down her legs and it was very noticeable with the black lights from the disco. The rest of our stay we always ended up in the party room by her choosing.
Now my confusion in chatting with a couple in the water one afternoon the topic had come up by the female half of the couple and my wife said no we are not swingers etc the female of the couple said they were not swingers also but that they enjoyed the resort and the freedom it brings to watch others as well as participate in some of the theme nights but that’s were they draw the line, my wife also agreed on that entire statement, but in talking to the husband I found that it was him and his wife that were in the party room and his wife was the woman that assisted me in fingering my wife during one of our nights in the party room. I taking all this in decided that I think my wife enjoys some aspect of the lifestyle while not wanting to have the label attached to it.

She and I have chatted more on the subject and she pointed out that when we first started dating I had told her about a swingers club near us and that I had been to a couple times she expressed in interest in going and we made plans to go she even got all dressed for the club then I ended up deciding not to go, she admitted that she was very let down but never expressed that to me. I have told her that we will go one night when we don’t have our kids and she seemed excited.
This is a brief outline of what has happened in the past couple months, I know I need to continue with very open conversation, but just looking for other opinions on how to proceed from this point without seeming pushy.

[Rackir]

First, thanks for sharing that story! Very hot. You're a lucky lucky man!

It sounds like it's headed the direction you want quite nicely on it's own. You may be right in that your wife is attracted to the idea, but not the label (I totally understand that, I have issue with the term "lifestyle"). You said she is looking forward to heading to a club, that in conjunction with her liberated feelings at the resort imply that though she likes the actions and the feelings, it's not something she wants to incorporate into her self image. At clubs and resorts we have to opportunity act out in ways we don’t in our day to day lives, and the people we interact with there are more likely to be strangers, than they are to be people who really know us, so those activities can be engaged in without her self image needing to change.

I'd say head off to the club at the next opportunity. If she enjoys herself, you may find that the clubs become a semi-frequent part of your schedule.

From there you may want to make friends with another couple in the life and just socialize with them, that way she can see that people can be swingers, and be totally normal people at the same time. Allot of people seem to think that the swinging aspect of a persons life becomes the dominant aspect (hence why I dislike the term "lifestyle"). Once she realizes that she can engage in the life, and maintain her previous self image at the same time, she may be more willing to entertain more personal encounters.

[WonderWhat]

Congratulations! You're both well on your way to finding out what you want and how to do it.

Yes, the labels really get in the way of what you think you want. Don't worry, it happens to everyone while the possibilities and boundaries are still being processed.

What's nice is that you're both learning what you and your SO feels, experiences and enjoys with no hurry, with enough communication to feel comfortable and with no pushiness.

[wpcplindy]

A small update on my progress to get my wife to play with another cock.

Not much has happened as far as progress in the last year, but have had a few close encounters. Mid last year Wife agreed to go to local swingers club for the first time so we could play in the Orgy room, but we got there it was kind of a dive and had low turnout so wife wasn't impressed but we did have sex in a private room with couples watching through the window.
Now things seem to be moving forward in small steps in the last couple months, Wife and I have been getting couples massages on a fairly regular basis for the last year or so and on the nights we got our massages we would both have a glass of wine to relax then chat with the couple giving us the massages and after the massages all 4 of us always hit the hot tub for a drink and good conversation that is our typical massage night. Wife has become very comfy with the male that does her massages and so the last time we had massages set up He had called ahead to say his female companion that does mine could not make it, I said that was ok with me that he just do the massages on me and wife,( I have always expressed to him that wife liked her breast massaged and I always ask him to take as many liberties with her as he could and as my wife's body language allow, He would always tell me how far she let him go and how she would react when he did it. But being that our massages were always couples massages in the same room he never pushed the envelope as to not offend his female half.)

So during my conversation with him before he arrived I expressed that I wanted him to give her a erotic massage and he was more than excited to do that and asked me what his limits should be I said whatever she allows you to do but he should probably stop short of fucking her, and followed up with I doubt if she would let it go that far so you will have to se what her body language is telling you,
So he arrives the 3 of us chat for a bit I get my massage while wife is just hanging out upstairs watching TV , After I am done I go tell wife its her turn she heads downstairs in her robe and I head out to hot tub to uncover it and he is out there having a smoke before he starts on my wife’s massage, we chat some more about the erotic massage and then we both head downstairs, he hits the restroom and I chat with wife while she is sitting on massage table, she asked me why I told him to give her a sensual massage and I express that I she enjoys them while we are on vacation and she should while we are home.
She just looks at me and lays down on the table under the sheet, he comes out of restroom I grab my wine and head upstairs. About 30 min later I need some more wine so I head downstairs and as I turn the corner I notice that he has wife fully undraped sheet on the floor massaging her upper thigh and rubbing her tits with other hand, He has removed his shirt but still had his sweat pants on, I decide to not interrupt or make myself known that I am there and I just quietly just watch and see what develops, So over the next 15 min I watch as he begins to finger my wife’s pussy and suck on her tits, My wife spreads her legs so he can have better access and I can tell from my wife’s movements while watching this she has a few orgasms. As I was watching this my mobile phone in my pocket goes off so I head back upstairs as to not interrupt them as they had no Idea I was watching.
I take my call and after about another 15 min or so I decide to head back down stairs as turn the corner I see that the lights were turned up a bit and he had just finished with massage on wife so I say hi to both and he says hi we all chat for a min and he heads to restroom again and I ask the wife how she enjoyed her massage and she is all glassy eyed and sits up on table still completely naked and says that she enjoyed it and that he fingered her, and rubbed her tits, I ask her if it made her horny and she just gave me a coy look and didn’t really answer me so I snake my had to her pussy and she is super wet and she grabs my head and kisses me as I finger her pussy.
He comes out of restroom and all 3 of us just chat a bit but the odd part is wife never grabs the sheet to cover up. We decide to head to the hot tub and have a couple cocktails as normal and chat, He says he didn’t bring a suit with him I jump in and say we don’t need any but wife decides she is going to put on hers, so we get in hot tub have a few drinks and I end up convincing wife she needs to take her suit off so she does. I end up getting out to get more cocktails when I return he is sitting next to wife in hot tub I get in we all chat some more I ask him to show me some of the finer points of giving an erotic massage so he takes the lead and demonstrates over the next hour on my wife’s naked body were to rub how to rub etc. Nothing more happened that night except wife was super horny when he left and we had some great sex and she even did anal again. We have sense talked about her erotic massage and she know it makes my dick hard knowing that she got felt up by him, and she also admitted that that was not the first time he had hi fingers in her pussy that the last couple massages he has inserted his fingers but never to the level he did during this massage. Now I already had known what liberties he has taken with her him and I will chat about it and he also knows I would enjoy watching her get fucked.

So over the last few weeks a friend of mine that wife has never met in person but wife has seen me text him etc,
He and I bet on a football game and if he wins he gets a kiss from my wife, I tell the wife of the bet and she just laughs and said she has never met him in person etc. So I loose the bet and tell the wife when he comes over she owes him a kiss. But he was out of town and couldn’t come by until the following week but we would get together then and have dinner and watch the games the following Sunday and he could collect his winnings, So he comes over the following Sunday meets the wife and him and I decide to do a double or nothing bet if he wins he get a blow job from wife, so wife just looked at me and said why did I do that but doesn’t say no, so as the game is on wife would stop in to see who was winning and if she would have to perform a blow job if we lost, Now during all this she is sitting in the living room with us and watching the game and him and I would tease her about the wager if we lost and she never once said no she wouldn’t she just played along. Well we lost but just as the game got over one of the kids just returned home so really nothing was said about the wager only that he could collect at a later date.
Now my buddy and my wife have been texting over that last 2 weeks about him collecting his winnings in a very teasing manor and me telling her how hot that would be to watch her perform a blow job on my friend, my wife has never come out and said no she wouldn’t make good on the bet, all she has said is that she is married, but has never shot down giving him the blow job and he like me doesn’t want to push to much to get her to perform it. Now the 2 of them decided to make a bet between them without me being the one to make it for her. They have agreed to a Massage, the looser must perform massage on the winner.

Now my wife and I have had many conversations about me watching her fuck another guy and her doing a threesome with me and another guy, and its hard to read her reactions, I never get a outright no, but what I get in response is that’s my fantasy and not necessarily hers but she doesn’t say its not a fantasy of hers either, We have some hot sex on the nights were we do chat about her fucking another guy, I seem to be making headway but don’t want to push any thoughts on getting past this, it seems we are close but ……

Hope to hear opinions and ideas

[slevin]

I think you're playing with fire by setting things up behind her back. She should always know what you are planning before you plan it. You've gotten away with it so far, but you are playing with fire.

[savcpl912]

We were in the same boat. It took us years for wife to start. In the end I let her go on her own a few times with guys and play to get comfortable with that. She also has a very high sex drive and loves to play. Once she played on her own a few we started playing with couples and the mfm. She loves it all now.

[Additude]

Everybody is different and everybody's relationship is different. Things progress in a relationship based on an individual perception as well as an interaction perception with the other person. We all like to think that we know the rules which include trusts and honesties, being up front and informative, but those are all just best practice guidelines that work best in most cases.

They are not a rule book that works for every situation in every relationship. What works well in one relationship does not mean that same thing will work well in another relationship.

I think the judge of how well things are working or not working, however the case may be, is based on the response of the other person in the relationship.

I think you are taking a very patient and methodical approach to what you are doing. To me it sounds like it is not something the wife would necessarily go out and do on her own, but seems willing to accept.

I think if your wife was not interested, then she would say so.

You have to understand that our society and culture exemplifies the institution of marriage and monogamous relationships. A majority of us have all been taught that concept since childhood.

We are taught that sex and love is the same thing in a marriage. We are not taught that there is recreational sex outside of the marriage. That concept can be a challenging one to reconstruct and change. It takes time.

As long as you are not getting negative feedback and you are not forcing or abusing your relationship then you are progressing just fine.

If things start turning sour, back off or possibly try a different approach. But I think you are doing just fine.

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by wpcplindy

my wife has never come out and said no

I was cringing over much of this post. To each couple, their own. If it works for you, great. But, in every relationship I've ever been in, if "she" (whomever) doesn't come out and say YES, it ain't happening.

I agree with Slevin. You know your wife a hell of a lot better than we do, but this surely looks like a bomb waiting to go off. That, paired with her comments that it's your fantasy, not hers...the fuse you think you're lighting is most likely a megaton bomb waiting to go off.

I do wish you luck, but hope you can concentrate on getting her to be more open with her thoughts rather than concentrating on how to get her to the next step in swinging. What you seek in swinging is most likely found in absolute open honesty with each other. From my chair, she seems to have ample right to be afraid of the next step(s). She has no control here. That's scary.

[wpcplindy]

Just a quick statement,

She always knows what I am planning. Maybe not full details but always knows what we are doing! We have lots of teasing conversation about anything and everything that I plan or want to try.
Erotic massages we do a couple times a year when we go to Desire ( we have erotic couple massages at resort and with a local provider off resort) Wife has always wanted to find a local provider of erotic massages but she has a very shy side and would be very embarrassed to outright ask for happy ending,
On the local swingers club we attended:
She really likes the playroom (orgy) at desires resort and asked if there were any clubs at home like that, she has sense asked if I have found a club that was more upscale with a playroom and I have we are attending a party this month,

Knowing my wife as I do if she didn't want to do something or was offended that I would even bring it in conversation I would get an outright NO! So I know what line not to cross.

The confusing part to me is when we do have discussions on swinging her only negative is she doesn't think she could handle seeing me with another female. That is the only negative, as well as just the label “Swinger”

She has also admitted to me that she would enjoy trying bi but she doesn't think she could make the first move.

With our discussions on a MFM threesome, or me watching her with another guy she is very turned on by it and would enjoy it but her negative on it is who would it be or how would we find this person. When I say a swingers date site she gets put off per say by the having to her words "advertise". and yes i have expressed to her it is a fantasy of mine to see her being pleasured by me and another guy, she does think that is very hot so she is right on when she says that it is my fantasy not hers.

Her big fantasy is to be a full participant in an ORGY were she can take more of a “submissive roll” and be just be involved with no limits on to what she does or what is done to her. That includes multiple men and women pleasuring her and her them,
and that plays right into the mfm fantasy of mine and her bi fantasy as well without the big shock of an all out orgy. But then again maybe that is how she wants to jump in is an all out orgy.


I put no stock into any feedback were you take a statement out of the context it was intended, and base your thoughts off of that lone quote /statement. We as a couple and I, expect better intelligence than that from adults.

Again all the good feedback positive and negative especially from the ladies really helps,