Any Men Whose Wives Refuse to Even Consider Swinging?

[yourbitterpill]

Not entirely sure where to begin here DKent. All I can say is that from your initial post, you display all the qualities of being a sociopath.
I'm serious. You need some psychiatric help, buddy. Not just for your wife and family but for yourself. Although I'm not sure you'll be willing to receive the help or even listen to my advice but you display ALL the common symptoms of sociopathic disorder.
The bulleted symptoms below are the sociopathic qualities you've displayed in writing.

Originally Posted by DKent

...I've always had a much greater sex drive than her and a need for more "out there" sex. I have indeed cheated on her our entire lives together, having many affairs, one-night stands, liaisons on business trips, even bisexual experiences. I've enjoyed it all, and have been immensely careful not to leave any clues or slip up, and she has no idea about my "other" life.

-Need for stimulation
-Poor behavorial control
-Infidelity
-Pathological lying
-Secretive

Originally Posted by DKent

...Truth is, I do not have any guilt regarding my infidelity, but I'm tired of it.

-Lack of remorse or shame

Originally Posted by DKent

Too much effort and time wasted setting up secret rendezvous, etc. I want to experience the pleasures of non-monogamous sex WITH my lady by my side; I want to share it with her and not have to decieve her anymore.

-Manipulative
-Parasitic lifestyle(possibly?)

I suspect that the only reason you suddenly see "swinging" as some sort of holy grail for your sexlife is because you're finding it harder and harder to acquire sexual partners on your own. You're aging and, as a man, are probably noticing that time is a little easier on the female form than the male. What better way to acquire more partners than to include your sexy wife? And imagine all the sexual possiblities she would open FOR YOU.

Originally Posted by DKent

...I finally dropped the bomb on her on (of all days, you idiot!) Mother's Day! She exploded. No, she IMploded. Whatever, it was the most shocking, terrifying thing to ever happen to her in our relationship - she thought the dream was over. She was so scared, hurt, confused, repulsed. I finally had to backpedal and try to talk to her rationally and we went to marriage counseling only two days later (at MY behest, not hers!). I needed to be able to talk to her via the thrid party there. I needed to ease her pain. Anyway, things went well there, and we opened a new line of communication. She never suspected I was so...sexual..so kinky. This man she'd known almost all her life was different now in a way, and it still leaves her a bit muddled and confused.

-Shallow emotions (you told her on Mother's Day!? WTF!? Who does that?)
-Need to justify crimes to receive their victim's affirmation
-creation of willing "victim(s)"

I noticed in the above as well that you always address HER emotions. You never say how you felt. I imagine you felt....good. After all the lying and secrecy, you were finally able to be "truthful". Don't you feel better? It didn't matter how SHE FELT. It didn't matter that that day should have been HER DAY. Nope, you needed that monkey off your back right quick. And you got it.
And then (and this is VERY cunning of you) you go to the marriage counselor. But is it to save your marriage? No, it's for you to open YOUR floodgates EVEN MORE. It's for you to tell her "hey, let's have sex with other people together!".

Originally Posted by DKent

...She tried to learn what the attraction is. She even looked online at various swinger's sites, the Freedom Acres site, etc. She wanted to know what her man was interested in doing. She couldn't agree with any of the positives all you folks were preaching. She did suggest she might go to a club just for me, to "get it out of my system" , but she'll sit in the bar and interact with no one...maybe go back to the car if it's too much. What fun.

-Glib & Callous

It's not about her "learning what the attraction is". It's about her trying to understand how this could possibly HELP your already messed up marriage! She's not interested in doing it because she's smart. She realizes that your relationship LACKS THE FOUNDATION FOR HEALTHY SWINGING - TRUST AND COMMUNICATION. She knows that this won't change you, your duplicity, your lack of empathy, or the relationship. She can see through your BS.

Originally Posted by DKent

...We've rarely watched porn; she has no interest in seeing other people having sex and it doesn't arouse her (so much for same-room sex). She doesn't have any fantasies about having sex with other people. She doesn't talk dirty and the word "fuck" is almost impossible to pry out of her mouth.

So what could POSSIBLY make you believe that suddenly she'd want to hop into bed with other people?

Originally Posted by DKent

Anyway, I wonder if there are other men on here with equally hopeless situations. I've all but resigned myself to the fact that I'll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH my wife there, enjoying it with me.

No, you've already indulged in that "forbidden pleasure" WITHOUT your wife for years. That's part of the reason she doesn't want to do that.

Originally Posted by DKent

Comments? How do you handle this? Do you keep pressing? Did you give up?
Why exactly are you here reading the forum like me?

From your other comments, you also:

-Contemptuous of others
-Does not percieve anything is wrong with them
-Grandiose sense of self

Be a real man. Get a divorce. It's readily apparent that you will continue to do what you believe is right, regardless of how it affects your marriage and your wife. Either do a whole bunch of soul-searching alone or go see a psychiatrist. You are a sociopath. You are looking to fill a hole in your life and your current course of action hasn't helped. Time to change tack.

Originally Posted by DKent

It's true, it's absolutely true: Men ARE from Mars and Women ARE from Venus. They are different - VERY different! In outlook, needs, perceptions, flexibility, etc. However, in my comprehensive research recently, I've discovered that SOME women are from Mars too - and those are the ones who are able to swing!

My wife and I have been married 2 years, swinging (on and off) for 4 years. Let me just say that both men and women are SO much more complex than that little blurb makes them out to be. There is a lot of grey area.

There are a lot of people in the world who think they can fit themselves or others into neat little labeled boxes. It doesn't work that way. You haven't done any "research". You've picked and chosen what fits your current perceptions about the world.

[DKent]

Interesting hypothesis, Dr. YourBitterPill, but inaccurate. I disagree with you completely. You could apply those same assumptions to any number of people and label them a "sociopath" too. The definition of a sociopath is "an agressively antisocial psychopath". I an not aggressive, nor am I antisocial by any means (I'm probably one of the most popular, witty, and outgoing people my friends and family know). And a "psychopath"? Even by your definitions that makes zero sense here. Sounded like a pretty impressive thesis though! I'm sure you had a lot of heads bobbing knowingly in agreement.<p>
Truth is, you do not know me and cannot know me based upon some posted statements here. And you do not know my wife. She's always felt extremely lucky to have such a warm, loving, considerate and compassionate husband. You all act as though she was unhappy! She wasn't. She loves me dearly and I her.<p>
And the fact I was unfaithful to her was unknown to her and remains so, so in her mind, it isn't even a factor. The only factor here is that she learned I have desires about which she previously didn't know and now does. We're dealing with it. We talk about it a lot.<p>
My choice to stop fooling around was my own. I wasn't "caught" or even suspected. I simply got to a point (maybe when the kids got old enough to where we are having more time together) where it didn't feel acceptable anymore in my mind and I wanted to try to devote more of that energy to her and our relationship. That was the impetus for suggesting swinging. The choice of the day was a total coincidence - we were alone without distractions, for once. But that was a bad choice in retrospect. I'm not saying I've made all good choices along the way. I'm not perfect like a lot of people. But I have been a good husband (yes, despite my extramarital activities!), never neglected her or my children, and a model family man. So I was - if nothing else - able to compartmentalize my home life with my outside life. And I'm not boasting about it or making it sound like I deserve a medal for the accomplishment. I'm just stating it, revealing it openly.<p>
But that point has been beaten to death here. The fact is, I've met several current swingers who previously cheated on their spouses, were either discovered or weren't, and found that the mutual and open sharing of swinging made that something that neither spouse wanted or needed to continue to do. One couple who live nearby - the ones who pointed this forum out to me and I'm in contact with regularly, both were cheating on one another, almost came to divorce over it, discovered swinging, and are in a wonderful marriage again. I envied them and was inspired by them. That is pretty much when I decided to bring it up to my wife.<p>
I've hidden only one thing from my wife all these years, and in hindsight, she never was the less for it. Now I choose a new path, and am labeled a "sociopath" by an armchair psychologist.<p>
You're all going to think what you wish, or what some compelling essay convinces you to believe, but again, you do not know me. I'd have to confidently state that I've been a much better husband and father than 90% of all the other husbands and fathers I've ever known. Sure, I've lived a complex life that included deception, but again, not once was my family neglected for it. They've always been Number One and always will be. More than I can say for a lot of people....<p>

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by DKent

e couple who live nearby - the ones who pointed this forum out to me and I'm in contact with regularly, both were cheating on one another, almost came to divorce over it, discovered swinging, and are in a wonderful marriage again.

Just a side note.

My guess is you and I have different definitions of a wonderful marriage

[havefuninsun]

To the OP:

Why did you think it was OK to cheat?

It sounds like you felt an entitlement to variety, although when that point was brought up you said no, that's not how you felt.

People cheat on their spouses for a LOT of reasons. But I have never heard a person who has chosen to cheat then say that their wives (or husbands) are the loves of their lives and give them the kudos you give your wife. That is very perplexing to me.

I have known a lot of cheaters. And they all were missing something in their relationship with their spouse ... and SEX wasn't one of them. I don't know anyone who cheated solely to get some strange. They usually had more of an emotional affair going on with someone else before anything physical happened.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but do you think you have an addiction to sex?

And ... you may not know it, you may not believe it, or you just might not want to, but believe me, you have hurt your wife. SOMETHING made you seek outside relationships. I really hope she never finds out.

(And before you start in with me ... I was a cheater. I cheated on my ex-husband. He did eventually find out, and not because I came clean. I would have gone to my grave with that secret. Like you, I didn't ever want him to know because I didn't ever want him to feel that pain. Hind-sight is 20/20; I should have just gotten out of the marriage when I realized it was done and not played in someone else's ball field. I can never forgive myself for my poor judgment).

So ... again ... why did you cheat?

[DKent]

Fair enough question. I did not, as you proposed, cheat to fulfill anything but physical needs. I never became emotionally involved with anyone or had any 'relationship' with anyone else.<p>
Before I met my wife, I had an active and varied sex life. When we got together, things were pretty exciting and 'creative', but after the kids came, she cooled off and exhibited less and less interest in sex. She had switched into the "mommy mode", a non-sexual view of herself which is not uncommon in child-raising women. I tried to initiate sex, and tried to be sensitive to her needs (or lack thereof). I resorted to masturbation a lot, to blow off steam (and other stuff!). I suggested she go to the doctor for a hormone panel, which she did and everything was fine. I tried pleasuring her in more calm ways - massage, caressing, etc., to bring her libido up to speed. Not too often did it awaken her desires. I felt like I needed/wanted sex and she did not.<p>
But the urge was too strong to have truly fulfilling and frequent sex, and it was easy and discreet to find elsewhere. Once I'd "crossed the line", there was no going back and I actually let some of the pressure off of my wife (which she seemed to appreciate!) because I was getting sexual satisfaction elsewhere. I know it sounds like I rationalizing that my infidelity was to her benefit too, but I'm merely pointing out the way events unfolded.<p>
Up until fairly recently, her sex drive was in a sort of doldrums. Then, my advances seemed to be bearing more fruit...sort of timed with both our kids being able to drive themselves and us having actually privacy in the house. The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say. So I conjured up this idea in my mind to get us involved in swinging - soft at first, maybe merely dancing, flirting, possibly same-room-sex at the most. Adding some spice, some new experiences, some new, mutual adventures.<p>
At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife. I decided she had somehow shed this cloak of disinterest and now I wanted to nourish this interest of hers. So after maybe almost a year of thinking about it, I "popped the question" to her about swinging....and you all know the rest.<p>
So there you have it - the sordid details....

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by DKent

The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say... At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife.

Okay - putting aside the other issues...

This sounds to me like you were trying to jump a canyon on a tricycle...

This isn't exactly a profile of a woman ready to swing. If anything, you really jumped the gun. Mrs Spoo and I were having sex an average of 10 times a week when we first got into swinging - and that average hasn't changed much. And while we haven't covered our walls with plastic, I wouldn't consider our personal sex lives "vanilla".

I would think that for the most part, the wives that are open to swinging are pretty sexual creatures.

That was my point about trust... You guys were just reestablishing a sex life together - and were really in the "crawl before you walk" stage. Then, you toss swinging at her? No wonder she wigged out...

Spoomonkey

[Oleg&Lena]

I see almost all who said here are trying to say: DKent, you are not swinger and swinging is not for you. Why?
Of course it is not good when man cheat his wife. But if he is trying to begin new life without lie...If he is trying to chang his life... Is it bad? Is it wrong? Who did not mistakes?

[fun4Ds]

I'll accept that you want things to change, people do change. If what you say is true that you have been an exceptionally great husband, except for your sexual wrongs. ...... what if.

What if you find out you were wrong about why your wife was in her sexual rut with you, because she just doesn't find you all that in bed. You don't exactly float her boat and the only reason she actually has stayed with you through all these years was just for the sake of the kids ,your business, and a financial dependence on you. Or, just her morals that staying with the one you married is the wright thing to do.

What if she in fact wants sex in every way possible, threesomes, foursomes, bisexual, even a gang bang, everything under the sun sexually except for one thing. She, doesn't want you there.

Ya know, women are so different it may have been you who were fooled all along.

What if you find out that all these times she was with you. From every time you thought you got her off, she was just faking it because emotionally, you just didn't rock her world. She had to fake it because she felt .. stuck with you. Wouldn't that be a bitter pill to swallow?

Seriously maybe you can not be honest with your wife and the counselor. But, what if this brings out feelings that your wife has had repressed all her entire life with you. Sure she wants to keep the marriage and let you do your thing but what if she wants to fly solo and to achieve her sexual gratifications like you.... she doesn't want you there?

Would you give her that sacrifice? Let her have her playmates, let her explore every sexual fantasy she has ever had, and trust me she has had fantasies you just don't know what they are. Will you give her that freedom, sexual freedom?

Can you handle that ? Her having "just sex" long, extended sex. No emotional bonds with sexual playmates and you don't get the privilege of the details because she wants the same that you have had so many years.

Can you take care of the business the home the family problems while she is being a good swinger and going on sexual missions and yes you don't get the privilege of being there because she has sexual repressions and she doesn't want you there?

I just want to know, can you be all giving and let her have all she wants sexually, with out you there. You don't even get the details. Will you keep the home safe while she is gone? How giving are you ?

What if things change, and they are not in your favor ? Lets face it, when you brought up this lifestyle, you opened Pandora's box, you planted the seed. It's gonna be pretty tricky to control things in counseling.

B,e prepared for the things that are from her. What if she has some fantasy of a five black male gang bang and you being at home with dinner ready when she gets home.? Some how, aren't you gonna have to think to yourself..... Well, I do owe her a few nights out without me.... Don't you ?

Be honest, how do you feel about her sexual fantasies, if you have no and I mean, no control? Seriously, be honest with yourself. She is a woman and you can never read her mind either.

[ShellyM]

In response to the OP,
Your situation is definately challenging. Jay and I are fortunate in we are sexually a very good match and compatible. Number one, the fact is you cannot "make" her do something that she simply is morally or for whatever reason against doing. Not implying that you have done this at all. If she is dead set against swinging you do not want to push her, because we know couples where the woman did it because he wanted her to and now its turned on him. She has the attitude of this is what you wanted, you got it...not nice to watch. BUT. Then you run into the opinion that YOU are half the marriage, and as entitled to happiness as she is. So then I think "well, he has needs too. Is it fair for her to NOT give him sexual intimacy and then deny him the ability to seek it elsewhere?" So its a hard call. You really need to talk with her. Not in an angry or condescending way. I would sit down with her and explain your needs and what you want and what you need. She sounds like a good woman. Best of luck to you,
Shelly

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Oleg&Lena

I see almost all who said here are trying to say: DKent, you are not swinger and swinging is not for you. Why?
Of course it is not good when man cheat his wife. But if he is trying to begin new life without lie...If he is trying to chang his life... Is it bad? Is it wrong? Who did not mistakes?

We all make mistakes - and most of us understand the affects of those mistakes. When you lie to your spouse, you affect the relationship. It changes it - corrupts the foundation. The bigger the lie, the bigger the crack in that foundation.

In this case, the wife has no idea what kind of marriage she has - she has the illusion of a faithful, respectable husband (or at least, DKent thinks she hold such an illusion ). I would say that the damage to the foundation is so significant that if she were ever to find out the truth, the marriage would be very lucky to survive.

And it is upon that damaged foundation, that our OP wanted to build a swinging relationship. Why? Because he wanted to share something with his wife? Not really. Not if you read the posts preceding. He wants to swing because cheating got to be a pain in the ass to arrange - and he simply got tired of that "lifestyle".

Now he wants a new one.

And his first act of building this new lifestyle on a damaged foundation? Dump his sexual desires (not his sexual mistakes, just his desires) on a woman who has not developed herself sexual - she hasn't really "come into her own." For example:

Originally Posted by DKent

We've rarely watched porn; she has no interest in seeing other people having sex and it doesn't arouse her (so much for same-room sex). She doesn't have any fantasies about having sex with other people. She doesn't talk dirty and the word "fuck" is almost impossible to pry out of her mouth.

Originally Posted by DKent

The sex seemed to be more frequent, but still rather traditional, or "vanilla" as some say.

Originally Posted by DKent

At this point, I had sort of lost the need to "cheat" as I was getting sex once a week, or three times a month at least, from my wife.

This act of impulsiveness came - of all times - on Mother's Day.

He had - understandably - a bad result.

In an act of revisionist history, he states in his later posts that it is all for her, while in earlier posts, he states that he has "all but resigned [him]self to the fact that [he]'ll never get to indulge in that forbidden pleasure of outside sex WITH [his] wife there, enjoying it with [him]."

He is not resigned to the fact that she'll never get to indulge in group sex - he is resigned that he won't get to. This isn't about her. It is about him.

Turning your life around is one thing - but that is not what is happening here. It is simply the next chapter of the same old thing.

If I were in his shoes, how would I turn things around?

I agree that telling her about his indiscretions would be counter productive, but at the very least, I would admit to myself that it was wrong, I had damaged my marriage and I had a job ahead of me to repair that damage. In a very real way, I would need to rebuild the foundation.

I would start by putting sex with other people out of my mind for good.

That is the past problem, that is the current problem. So - get rid of it.

I would share my sexual interests with her, but I would share them in a non-threatening way. Not in a "this is what I want us to do" but "this is what I fantasize about". And I'd make it impersonal, detached from our marriage.

But - that would be a subplot really... Mainly I would work on reconnecting with her - taking this new found freedom without kids to reconnect as a couple and reconnect her with her sexuality. Giving her the freedom and the room to explore herself.

It'd be very "vanilla" at first... Candles and a bubble bath, boss and secretary role play, making love in the back yard, late at night, under the stars...

She needs to feel that she can trust him completely. And women aren't stupid... Except for the stupid ones - and we know who you are My suspicion is that even if she doesn't know what he has done - and even if she doesn't consciously suspect him - she has some intuitive lack of trust.

Building that trust will be the biggest trick - and may be the entire journey - but that would be the first step.

And when she trusts, she might start talking about the fantasies that she does have. DKent needs to - at that point - shut his mouth and take notes... Make this truly about her - and not just about her in some self-justifying way - and help her indulge her fantasies. They may be as simple as introducing Jello to the bedroom - or they may be as complex as arranging for a Navy SEAL assault team to storm her beaches... But until he knows HER fantasies, he really shouldn't be pressuring her with his...

He may find out that - when he has done all of that - that he has actually forgotten about swinging and is simply enjoying the thrill of giving her fantasy after fantasy - Jello after Jello.

A healthy marriage isn't about your "right" to have sex with others. It is about the depth of your enjoyment of one another. If he were to pursue that as his goal, then THAT would be turning his life around. But that isn't what he is doing based on his posts. And that, Oleg&Lena, is what is desperately wrong with this picture...

Spoomonkey

[ShellyM]

Spoo, I absolutely agree with you.
But, does one spouse have the right to deny sexual intimacy to the other KNOWING that they need more? She is his wife and has to know that he needs more sex. We know when our hubbies jerk off usually. No one has the right to cheat, and I am not condonging the affairs. AND I agree with you, he seems to not want to cheat because its a hassle to schedule a tryst. (JMO, I'm not judging anyone here but rather making a point). BUT. If she knows that her husband needs more sexual intimacy, and yes I think that for some people it is a need and not just a want, does she have the right to say "I'm not giving you sex AND you will not seek it from another woman?" I don't know the answer to that myself, its such a hard call to make. Do the opinions/preferences of one spouse outweigh the other when both spouses are supposed to be 50% of a marriage?
Okay, I'm thinking way too much before having my coffee.
Shelly

[Oleg&Lena]

At last post of Spoomonkey all is said right. Of course not to make a step to swinging in one day or one week. Maybe ever one year is little period for it. But if he really want to recieve new interesting relationship with his wife he may do it. It is hardly but it is <B>possible</B> I guess.
The trust of course is fundamental of that relationship.

[BiloxiCouple]

What I see

What is needed

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by ShellyM

But, does one spouse have the right to deny sexual intimacy to the other KNOWING that they need more?

Absolutely not.

And it is not right-minded thinking for a spouse to simply "take it" when a spouse refuses intimacy. Making sure our spouse is taken care of is the responsibility of the spouse, IMHO. And, as I was joking with some women at work this week, men are pretty simple - feed us and fuck us and you have us figured out (again, I was joking, but it is not that far from true... In my case at least).

Women take a bit more work - like Mrs. DKent for example.

I do not think that a rational response for a husband (or wife) is to simply shrug their shoulders, claim to be a victim and start sleeping around. It happens - and it is not the "sin to end all sins". It IS distasteful to many swingers - for good reason - because we HAVE put in the work necessary to make our marriages open, honest and whole (for the most part - I am not claiming perfection )

I sincerely wish that couples, early in their relationships would hash out these types of issues - allowing for the changes that are bound to come when children enter the scene. I wish that more women understood that their relationship is just as much a part of their responsibility as their kids... Of course, I wish more husbands understood that their relationship was just as important as their need for sex :rollseyes

I have two women at work that I am close to. In that, I mean we talk about sex comfortably and without detail (Okay, there is the occasional detail). One has a three year old and uses him as her excuse for not having time for sex with her husband. One has a six month old and - in response to hearing the other woman's excuse - said, "we don't have that problem."

You can imagine which relationship is on the rocks...

But - that doesn't excuse cheating. Cheating is simply avoiding dealing with the issue. As I have told Mrs Spoomonkey (and she has told me) while I believe we are soul mates, while I believe we were made for each other, and while we have never had an issue with our sex lives (heck, we have only had one fight ever) - if she were to lose interest in having sex with me, and was not willing to work on the problem constructively, our fairy tale would be over.

Because dishonest is just not something I'm good at.

Spoomonkey

[Cpl2share]

As a person who enjoys playing devils advocate:
Just maybe the reason that the OP's wife is now more interested in sex is because the OP is around home more now and she does not have the time for secret trysts. She may not be interested in going to swinger events because she has already been to many of them while he was off getting it on the side. She does not want one of her many past "lovers" to recognize and out her.
I have known many women and yes I have cheated on many girlfriends (NEVER MY WIFE) in my day. Women are SMART! They may not have proof, and they may not know who, but they always know what. Every time that I cheated on a girlfriend she figured it out. I am 100% certain that the OP's wife does know about his cheating. In 28 years there is no way that he has successfully hidden it. Come on, he can't be that smart. A woman with that low of interest in sex, and he proposes swinging on Mothers Day? That is not a sign of high IQ.
Further: The OP's statement that he is now spending more time with his wife because the kids are on their own tells me that he DID avoid spending time at home. He is lowlife.