Lots Of Questions, Any Answers?

[Ave Satanas]

Hi there, I'm AveSatanas, and i'm so new to the swinging scene that i haven't actually swung.

A couple of days ago, for the first time ever, I was struck, for no apparent reason, with the fantasy of sharing my girlfriend of the last year and a half with another man. This is unusual for me, because up until then I had always been a pretty jealous guy, and the thought of her cheating on me breaks my heart and angers me something awful. So this sudden fantasy, while hot, it very confusing to me.

I revealed it to her today (yesterday now... whatever) and we discussed it for quite some time. She came to the conclusion that she simply wasn't learned enough of the idea to be comfortable with it, but also didn't show any desire TO learn more of it. I did, but did not mention it because I don't want to make her uneasy.

She explained that she wouldn't feel comfortable with another man simply because it was not me, but conflictingly also seemed alright with the idea of just oral sex. She also seemed okay with, and even excited about, the prospect of a threesome with another girl, under the condition that I do not much more than, as she put it, "cop a feel". A little unfair in my mind, but I can see where she's coming from. It seemed okay with me, but I worry that I'll get greedy and desire more from our third partner.

As for another guy, I worry that I'll only enjoy the fantasy more than the reality. A stranger seemed like a good idea to me only from my jealous standpoint, but only because it'd be easier to beat them up after. Not a healthy view by any means.

Then the idea of a good friend of mine came into play. I almost felt as though I'd be okay with it, but I still fear that it could potentially ruin our friendship. Furthermore, the particular friend that comes most readily to mind is involved in a relationship as well, and I can't imagine him being very easy to convince, although I could be wrong. And on top of that, as I mentioned before, he is already in a relationship, and at the time we're only really considering a threesome.

It came to a point where we started actually discussing names, but men didn't really get brought up, and I felt uncomfortable suggesting females, for obvious reasons.

In case any of you wanted to take note by the way, the breakdown thus far was:
*No kissing, or any other activity that we considered to be 'special' and between a loving couple.
*She is the only bisexual member here.
*In a Male-Male-Female situation, she would only have intercourse with me, and would only really try oral on the other member.
*In a Male-Female-Female situation, She would play with the other member, and I couldn't do much more than 'cop a feel'
*MFF seems, at the time, much more likely than MMF, which I think I'm thankful for right now.

She continued to worry that, because we're both actually young enough that I was her first and thus far only sexual partner, the practice of swinging would ruin what was special about our sexual relationship. I, on the other hand, feel as though we'd be following a natural human sexual desire, and that our particular sex life would remain 'sacred' and would even be enhanced by the practice, however I didn't tell her this because I didn't want to seem coercive.

I have since reviewed a lot of the literature on the subject, and the idea has come to mind to maybe experiment with simply having sex in front of a prospective female third, and to see how we like the water, so to speak. One particular suggestion stands out because my mate is convinced that she would be interested, and because, while I do find her very attractive, I've never really had an sexual desire for her.

Any advice or opinions on this situation would be GREATLY appreciated, so long as it avoids the patronizing responses of 'wait a few years, you're too young, blah blah blah'. Any other ideas for testing the water would be great, or ways to simulate the act without actually going through with it (although these seem like they wouldn't work too well in my mind right now, but then, I'm not terribly educated on the matter).

It's also worth mentioning that, while I have admitted here to not airing my opinions, I will tell her what I feel without restraint if I feel it is appropriate.

And above all, I CANNOT stress enough how much I love this woman, and how her comfort and trust are more important to me than anything.

If you've read this far thank you. And thanks in advance to any responses I receive.

I'll try to keep you posted as this matter unfolds.

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

Any other ideas for testing the water would be great, or ways to simulate the act without actually going through with it (although these seem like they wouldn't work too well in my mind right now, but then, I'm not terribly educated on the matter).

Due to everything you've said about the differences between what you and your girlfriend would each be comfortable with right now, all of the rules (no kissing, etc etc), and because you were struck with this idea a mere two days ago and have only just begun to talk, my suggestion is: do nothing at this time with other people. It takes most couples weeks, months or sometimes even years of talking about and learning about swinging before they actually dive in.

My #1 suggestion to you would be for the two of you to visit a well-established, classy on-premise club. Research those. They are for the most part no-pressure environments where you can just be in a sexually charged atmosphere, mingle with swingers socially, flirt a little, dance, etc. The social areas are separate from the sex areas. If you venture back to the sex areas, you can simply have sex with each other only.

Anything else sounds premature at this stage. Don't push, and if it's right for both of you, let it unfold naturally.

[nwincouple17154]

I agree totally with Tybee, try a club, this will give you both an idea of what swinging is all about. I know at our club the majority of members are willing to sit and openly discuss these things with you without putting pressure on either of you to actually do anything.

You idea about having sex in front of a third may be a difficult one to achieve only because the third may feel left out. If you were in a club situation though and go there with the agreement if you decide to play it will only be with each other, this way you can find out what it's like to be watched, and yet not have any obligation to upset what sounds like a delicate situation between the 2 of you.

From a personal perspective, my husband and I started dating when I was 16 and he 17, we were for a very very long time each other's only sex partners. This was something for a long time that kept me from wanting to swing. I wanted to preserve that between us. I thought it was really cool to be 25 and be able to say my husband had been the only person I had ever had sex with. Looking back now some of that was insecurity on my part, and once I felt more secure in our relationship and spent a lot of time reading and learning more about swinging, I edecided it would be ok for us to give it a try.

I'm glad now that we did, we both love our lives and it has enhanced our own sex lives. Swinging also improved communication between the 2 of us, not that we didn't before then, but we do spend more time talking now and concentrating on us, which is a good thing. I think though for all couples you need to move at your own pace, take things slow and work your way up to where ever it is you want to be. Talk constantly along the way, and realize that sometimes fantasy is better left to fantasy, not everything you fantasize about will turn out great in reality, and if something does go badly you need to be able to communicate well enough with each other to work through it together.

Good luck which ever direction you choose.
Trish

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

Any advice or opinions on this situation would be GREATLY appreciated, so long as it avoids the patronizing responses of 'wait a few years, you're too young, blah blah blah'. Any other ideas for testing the water would be great, or ways to simulate the act without actually going through with it (although these seem like they wouldn't work too well in my mind right now, but then, I'm not terribly educated on the matter).

Well, you didn't give us many options but to tell you what you'd like to hear here.

I am sorry, but I'd rather preffer the Devils's advocate role (that suit your nickname, btw: "Hello, Devil"... and here I am ).

You spent just two days thinking of this... and you did a LOT in just two days, perhaps too much overthinking. As for us, it took 14 years to reach the same point you're today. Not that you should wait for a few years, and age has nothing to do with this, but neither extreme seems to be wise... how about a couple of months? Because if you cannot be patient enough, you risk to face an scenario you're not prepared to handle, thus damaging your relationship.

The most important thing I read so far is... this is a fantasy. Most ot the times, fantasies deserve their own place: not every fantasy is meant to become real, some of them could be dangerous in practice for one reason or another, and it is ok to keep some fantasies just as fantasies. Not that this particular one is necesarily meant to remain as a mere fantasy, but you should consider that this could be the case. Even more, if you two play around with the idea as a sole fantasy for a while, you two may gather information enough to tell where it belongs, if to fantasyland or the real world.

All the objections you mentined from you and your GF makes a lot of sense, and just some of them would be enough for many couples to decide to keep the whole idea as a fantasy to spice up their private games without actually involving others. You both should respect your limits, and talk a lot about the risks and the fears, as to be able to understand where those limits come from, which ones are well grounded and which ones results from irrational fears. You should know this before any attempt.

I endorse the advice of exploring the swinging scene at some on-premise club. This would allow you to test the waters while taking baby steps. For example, your GF could dance and seduce a guy in front of your eyes, and you'd be able to measure how badly your jealous affects you in a controlled environment, without any presure to keep going on all the way.

As for picking a friend of you as a playmate, this is a REALLY BAD idea. Besides the risk of spoiling a friendship, you'd be introducing way more unknown variables to the huge amount of variables the first experience already have. You may believe a friend provide you more control of the situation, as if the experiences already shared with this friend were enough to predict his (and your) behavior. The fact is, none of your previous experiences prepares you to the first swinging experience, and all the shared bagage with your friend would backfire. Even if only because you'd have to take care not only for your and your GF emotional safety, but for your friend safety as well, wich easily may lead you to a conflic of interests where any choice you make will harm someone.

A playmate you have no previous attachments with would relieve you from a lot of responsibility. Should something goes wrong, you have no commitments to enforce, and the guy can be part of an history you may want to forget. This doesn't mean you'll jump without a parachute: you may take your time to pick someone suitable, and to develop just the level of confidence required to invite the guy to your bed.

So, I am not telling you to wait for two years or any fixed amount of time, but to invest all the time you both need in order to develop the grounds from where to tell if bringing this fantasy to reality worths the risks.

Aslo, I'd like to suggest you to invite your GF to joint this board, look around and ask all the questions she may have.

[Fringeswinger]

All sounds like good advice to me (the uninitiated). Especially the part about visiting a club and gauging your real life reaction to her flirting heavily with another guy.

I wrote here about my suprisingly jealous reaction to what was basically a harmless public non-event involving my wife and her co-worker. Up until then one of my hottest fantasies I wanted to experience in real life was watching her enjoy getting fucked by another guy. Now its still a hot fantasy, but it has moved completely out of me wanting the reality. Go figure.

You guys seem to be young enough to "experiment" a little. Not meaning to say you can't teach an old dog new tricks - this board is probably the complete dismissal of that adage, but some of us get set in our ways the older we get. I often think how sexually dangerous I would have been in my younger days had I been blessed with a more outgoing and confident personality.

Good luck with the MFF thing. You never know. But with her current rules of only copping a feel, sounds like an unfair blue ball event waiting to happen to me. Still, would be fun.......... once.

Bill

[Ave Satanas]

First up, thank you all SO MUCH for your feedback. I appreciate it like you would not believe.

In response to what I've read thus far, many suggest going to a club. I've managed to avoid it thus far, but I'm pretty sure we're both too young to get in, although I could be wrong. Suffice to say we're both under 21. I'm not too sure on the rules there.

Also, it seems to be less of a casual thing in my particular case. The idea of someone we only recently met wasn't too appealing to either of us. We actually are preferential to the idea of a trusted friend, like those I mentioned before, who would find the occasion as special as us. I don't worry as much about Sereneider's suggestion that I could ruin the friendship, because it seems easier to trust a friend to simply break the whole thing off should it become uncomfortable for any member of the party, and I can safely say that in a jealousy situation I can trust myself to think logically and reason that in the end, if something occurred, I SUGGESTED the idea, and cannot hold anyone responsible but myself. Furthermore, and this will sound absolutely selfish on the part of me and my lover, but the friends we've considered are in a weird null zone where in the unlikely scenario that the situation caused our friendship to end, it wouldn't have a profound impact on our lives. I don't know if Sereneider has had a bad experience when having friends involved in swinging, or if it's really common, so any other viewpoints would be good. In the end, it's more about trust for me than anything else, and as much as I hate to say it, it takes me a long time to start trusting people.

I would also like to note that this does not diminish my appreciation of your opinion, sereneider.

As for time, I wholeheartedly agree, and haven't brought up the idea since the last time I talked to her, not wanting to make her uncomfortable. I am more than willing to invest whatever amount of time is necessary before even trying any sort of experimentation. My sudden ideas just kind of pop up, and I wanted outside opinions. As was mentioned, I definitely do have a tendency to overthink things, as does she, and will ask a lot of questions in hopes of multiple, multi-faceted answers. Thankfully, they've all been great thus far.

One particular response from nwincouple mentioned that having sex in front of a third party might cause the third party might cause them to feel left out. As of now, the third party that I had in mind wouldn't, I think, feel that way, mostly because she's had something of a crush on the both of us for a while, and we certainly wouldn't stop her from, say, masturbating to the scene or something to that effect. I assumed she would, and it could be used as a way of seeing all of our responses to it, and judging from there whether or not we would like to go a step further. I should point out that I do not plan to make that decision at that time, as I know that people tend to make rash decisions in the heat of passion, and it is something that needs to be thought out with a clear head.

Any further feedback is welcome and would be highly appreciated, and I'll be sure to keep you posted as details unfold.

[good times]

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

I don't know if Sereneider has had a bad experience when having friends involved in swinging, or if it's really common, so any other viewpoints would be good.

It is not uncommon for people to approach their non-swinging (vanilla) friends as potential swinging playmates, it is very uncommon for it to work out well. While a few people have approached friends and had it work out ok, most that have tried it have had a similar experience to what we have had when we did it. It killed the friendship and we haven't been friends since. Their is a saying that goes, "make friends of swingers, but never try to make swingers out of your friends".

Also keep in mind that most swingers value discretion, non-swinger friends on the other hand, especially those that have no interest in swinging have no reason to be discreet. So if you approach a friend with the idea, and that friend is not interested, it is safest to assume that all of your mutual acquaintances will know about it faster than you can imagine possible. It is even possible that your now concerned friend will even make it a point to talk to your family, if they know them, to get them to intervene and bring you to your senses.

[socolais]

I like the way this thread is developing, I see a strong parallel with many of my own thoughts.

Brainstorming on your request for simulation ideas made me think of web-camming or video recording as a way to test some of your reactions. That may be a smaller step than what you're looking for, but it does have some merit with evaluating the reactions of the third party and enabling their buy-in with the threesome idea. The two of you act out the scenario with a camcorder running. Then ask the friend to give you feedback on your home-made porn. It's an easy out for them with a lower probability of feelings getting hurt. Once you have found an enthusiastic friend, negotiate a plan for progress from there.

Filming can be fun all by itself.

[LikeMinds321]

Originally Posted by socolais

Brainstorming on your request for simulation ideas made me think of web-camming or video recording as a way to test some of your reactions. That may be a smaller step than what you're looking for, but it does have some merit with evaluating the reactions of the third party and enabling their buy-in with the threesome idea. The two of you act out the scenario with a camcorder running. Then ask the friend to give you feedback on your home-made porn. It's an easy out for them with a lower probability of feelings getting hurt. Once you have found an enthusiastic friend, negotiate a plan for progress from there.

Filming can be fun all by itself.

I think this is a very bad idea.

Allowing others to watch you have sex on a video/webcam is totally different than interacting with people right there in the room.

And as others have said, forget about bringing a friend into your swinging/sex fantasies.

LM

[Fringeswinger]

I just read the part where you said you are both under 21. Given your (in my opinion) extremely well written posts, I am very impressed with not only your ability to express yourself, but to do it with a command of the language. It seems as though many folks these days, especially young people, can't put two words together without either misspelling both or completely obliterating punctuation in a sentence. I’m no word artist myself, but I just wanted to say “good job”.

Now watch me embarrass myself by misspelling something.

Bill

[Danixxx]

I agree with what others said, 2 days is really nothing in terms of making this type of decision. My husband and I have been married for ten years, together for 14 years and though we talked and fantasized about it for a long time (6 years +), we really decided to take the next step over the last year of constant communication as to how we wanted to go about this.

You are right, you are probably too young for a club because I was going to suggest trying that. Maybe you could use an internet personal site advertising you are "curious" and maybe a "friends first" situation where you could meet someone and gauge your feelings from there?

At any rate, good luck to both of you.

[iapr]

I am afraid I cannot in good conscious encourage any < 21 year olds to engage in any form of group or multipartner sex. I know it goes on at frat parties and drunken barn dances all the time and look at all the trouble, heartache and drama it causes. If you are not comfortable with the idea of a sexual experience with strangers that is fine but I am going to have to join the rest of the chorus and say that to set up or attempt to have an encounter with a friend is an even worse idea.

All healthy males fantasize about having FMF experiences and if you have shared this and other ideas with your gf and she didn't freak out and kick you in the nutts that is great but that does not mean that she truly wishes to attempt these types of experiences. I will freely admit I am quite prejudicial in this matter but I truly believe that 20 year old women do not typically harbor legitimate interests in swinging. At that age women are looking for a for a man for a potential LTR and are looking down the road for potential traditional marriage material. Now they may like to 'talk the talk' and they may even express some fantasies of their own but much of that is because that is what they think their boyfriends want to hear. Young adult females have a much more traditional way of thinking about sexuality and relationships etc than males and traditions became traditions for a reason.

I know kids these days are more open minded and more sexually sophisticated than I was 20 years ago but while societal mores and expectations have changed over the years human nature has not and 20 year old women pursueing an interest in swinging is not natural.


If you do this you will probably have a great time at that moment but I can pretty much bet you the farm that in the end there will be a lot of drama and bent feelings and broken friendships etc etc. Will it be worth it? Maybe. and maybe not.

I will say after all my soapbox lectures and ranting that in looking back to when I was younger I wish I hadn't been so straight and traditional. I wish I had been more open to different ideas and I wish some of my old girlfriends had been more open as well. So while part of me says "don't do it, it ain't right" the other part of me says, "go for it, you're only young once!! If you lose a girlfriend and a drinking buddy over it, big deal there's more fish in the sea."

So I guess in the end I just balance myself out and my input is pretty irrelevant but I had to say it anyway

[Ave Satanas]

Thank you all so much for the answers thus far. In response to Fringeswinger... Well, I'm the son of an English teacher, the brother of an English teacher, and my lady's parents have both taught the subject as well. My adage has always been 'A good argument is one that is well-presented', and the first step to that is writing properly. But I'll probably fuck up somewhere along the line and ruin my rep

The idea of recording ourselves is out purely because it would mean investing in equipment that I should be spending on school

I hate to sound like I'm not listening, but my gut instinct is saying to go with someone I trust. It seems safer and more controllable that way, and I don't know if it needs to be mentioned that I'm pretty sure that the friends I'm thinking of would be down for such an experiment, as you already picked it up from the context, I'd assume.

But as you all are obviously more educated on the subject than I, I will take it into consideration should the situation evolve to more than fantasy, and not go with someone who I'd really mind losing a friendship with. There are plenty of friends to choose from who I figure are all reasonably attracted to both me and my girl (both male and female) who we share the feeling with.

In the end, though, I think it's a mistake I have to make, if only to figure out WHY exactly it is a bad idea. You're welcome to explain, but at the time, it just seems like an emotional thing I have to experience to fully understand the significance.

I should also stress that I currently have not pursued the matter any further, as I want to give as much time as possible for it. I should probably note that we HAVE been together for a year and a half now; the fantasy hasn't been one that I've been harboring, but as soon as it appeared, I told her. I agree with you all on that particular note, and will take care to avoid rushing into anything.

Just to update, she's PMS'ing right now

Not to suggest that there is a problem with it, but I think I'm going to wait until after her period, when she's in a state where she isn't so emotional and can discuss the idea more rationally.

I apologize for sounding sexist as hell just now, but it seems like a good idea.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate you more than you can imagine.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Fringeswinger

I just read the part where you said you are both under 21. Given your (in my opinion) extremely well written posts, I am very impressed with not only your ability to express yourself, but to do it with a command of the language.

Well, I have to say I am impressed as well. It changes everything.

When I read the first post, I didn't figure out your age. Moreover, I supposed you were 10 years older, and more close to my generation in the mindsetting.

I am pretty sure that the experience from our generation doesn't necesarily fits younger people needs nor the scenarios they face.

For example, we came from a more traditional, seldom puritan education, where sex was pegged to love and reproduction. Our friends too, and even when they were liberal, most of the times this isn't enough to overcome the prejudices nor the rush of confussing toughts they could be dragged into after a proposal to bring them to your bed.

This diesn't necesarily holds water for you. I am pretty sure that the way people of your age perceives the sexuality may differ a lot from our context. I know of kids who're used to share toughts, feelings, and even some of their sexuality with others, let say inside a group of firends, without being judged by their peers, and moreover, being appreciated because of this.

Besides, I doubt you could be able to develop these communicational skills on your own, isolated from your peers. I suppose that it is very likely that you're surrounded by people who appreciate those skills, so it is very likely that the friends you're thinking as potential partners were sharing them as well, wich may lead to a very different context than the one we're used to when talking of "making swingers of friends".

In other threads I already expressed my concerns on how much the experience of our generation suits the needs of the younger ones who come here asking for advice. A lot of young people, in their twenties, wants to develop a relationship without giving up the right to enjoy recreational sex with others, travelling this road in the opposite direction most of us took, i.e., from developing a strong, monogamous relationship, towards the recreational sex. We stick to our "recipe": "you cannot do that, it doesn't work that way, build a strong relationship first, and so on"... just because we don't have the same grounds they have, nor are able to understand their context.

The fact is, I declare myself unable to provide advice here. When I think of ffriends, I am thinking of friends like my 35 to 50 years old friends, and I don't have a clue of what's involved in a friendship among people of your age. It could be much of the same, and it couldn't. There exist a "cultural barrier" and I don't know how to cross it.

So, I take back everithing of what I said before. Instead, I'd suggest you to make use of the board. There are plenty of discussions where I am sure you'd feel yourself identified with some of the parties. Use those as an start point to make up your mind in your own terms.

And, it'd be great if you let us know where this lead you, how it was the process for you, and the outcome.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

In the end, though, I think it's a mistake I have to make, if only to figure out WHY exactly it is a bad idea. You're welcome to explain, but at the time, it just seems like an emotional thing I have to experience to fully understand the significance.

It didn't read this one when writting my last post.

Instead of attempting to explain this to you, I'd say... do your homework! Seriously, use the search feature and look for threads where the subject was discussed, there is a LOT to read about this. Not all were bad experiences, but most were.

The fact is, I cannot correlate the features I recognize in the relationships among people of my generation to the ones you could, or that you could tell there exist some radical difference turning the same scenarios into unfeasible ones within your context. And you may find out there are features similar enough as for you to understand where this advice is comming from and how it would fit your case anyway.

Read those stories, you're the only one who can tell... and again, please, come back and tell us about your conclussions. I am eager to know how and why the scenario would differ for your generation.