Lots Of Questions, Any Answers?

[Ave Satanas]

So the first big news in awhile... Despite my desire to wait to bring the whole swinging idea up until after her period, it got brought up again tonight... and it didn't go well. But for people here to fully comprehend the story, I have to explain a bit of back-story. So crack open a drink, get some cheez-its out, or go and pee now, because this could take a while.

About six months after my lady and I started dating, whilst I was still a minor, I was subjected to a very unfortunate molestation by my driving instructor (as I was getting my driver's license at the time). This driving instructor was very unfortunate looking herself, not someone I'd ever be remotely interested in, but nonetheless, it send my girl into a frenzy, crying and yelling that I had given this woman some idea that molesting me would be alright. Mind you, the perpetrator had told me not long before that her boyfriend left her, she wasn't great-looking (like I'd mentioned) and I have an annoying ability to make people laugh. So from this, she got the idea that it'd be fine to push me against a wall, force her tongue into my mouth, and grab my hand and slap in on her chest. The second I realized what was happening, I pushed her off, and I said I needed to go home. During that ride she decided that she would point out that by having her kiss me, I had cheated on my girlfriend. This caused me to become racked with guilt, and when I told me girlfriend I was honestly on the verge of hysteria. And against everything I had expected, my girl DIDN'T believe me, and agreed that I had cheated. It took me a long time to get it through to her that it wasn't something I had ever wanted to go through, went through the whole process of filing a report with the police, and it's safe to say I have recovered.

Now, as I'd mentioned when I started this thread, I was once a very jealous person. I'm still quite protective and, dare I say, territorial about her ("She's MINE!!!"). Well, a couple of months back, my lady went through a stage where she would kiss other girls. Not especially passionately, but not a peck either. Some might have found it sexy... Hell, now I find it sexy. But at the time, it really bothered me. She accused me of cheating and put me through a miniature hell over being molested by some woman in her 30s, but if I freak out over her kissing another girl her age, I'm being a bit unreasonable? Fuck that, I say. I wasn't ready for her to experiment with something like that, and it's unfair.

So tonight, in the midst of messing around with one of my best friends (the very one I'd mentioned before, who is in a loving relationship with HIS girlfriend), he and I decided that we were going to do some of that crazy dry-hump dancing that the kids are so fond of these days, sandwiching my lady between us, and I jokingly said "See? This is hot already!"

Bad fucking idea.

She responded with what sounded like a calm, serious "Well why don't you invite HIM into it?"

It seemed like an opportune moment, so I told her "Eh, I think it'd be better if we just let someone watch us have sex, or maybe had sex in the same room as them while THEY'RE having sex, or something."

Or something, indeed.

Moments later, she was asking if I was bored with our sex life. I'm not, mind you. It's great the way it is, I was just trying to add something new that I thought she'd be interested in, and I pointed this out. I even gave a not-very-good analogy about how I love salt 'n' vinegar potato chips, and could eat them every day, but if someone offered me barbecue in addition, I'd probably try it. Bad, I know, but it was the best thing I could come up with off the top of my head. Then, kind of out left field, she began accusing me of not thinking that the sex that we have is special, that I was bored with her and just wanted someone else, and so on. I explained to her that it wasn't like that at all, but it still led to her being KIND OF pissed off (about a six on a one-to-ten scale), enough that she wouldn't hug me or anything to that effect for the next few minutes. She got over it eventually, though, and our night wore on.

Here, I must explain something else. Since the start of our relationship, I have never once said "I love you, too". It has always been "I love you", returned with "I love you". Call me crazy or picky or ridiculous, but adding "too" to the end of it seemed to make the whole affection... obligatory. She understood this, and it made our love seem more real every time we said it. If say, my mother or a good friend of ours were to give us though the old "I love you", they'd get an "I love you, too". Ours was special.

So as we're leaving our venue, we're saying our goodbyes to friends, hugging, chatting, the usual. One particular friend of hers came to say goodbye. This guy is interesting indeed: he's very... flamboyant. He's been long suspected of being gay, and while he's never come out of the closet, it's the general consensus that he was just that. So I have no real reason to be jealous of him. But nonetheless, it bothered me when, as he hugged her goodbye, he said (out-of-character-ly) "I love you" and she responded with an "I love you". No "too" in there, and I noticed. But I did my best to ignore it, and didn't say anything about it at the time.

Later that night, at a more appropriate time, she asked if anything was bothering me, and I told her how I had felt about the whole goodbye situation. She first tried to make a joke of it, bringing up how "he's gay, so it shouldn't really matter". I wasn't in the mood for it to be made into a joke, and tried to explain why it bothered me so much. She said, not sounding sorry at all "Well, I'm sorry, but it's instinctive for me". It came down to me saying that I didn't want excuses, and she claimed she wasn't making any. I explained to her that the alleged instinctive-ness of the whole thing seemed like an excuse to me, and she exploded, saying "You know what, fuck you, I'm NOT sorry."

It led to a looooooooooooong silence indeed.

Later, she caught my eye and gave me the angry "what?" (you know what I mean by that) and I tried talking to her again. I explained that I felt it was unfair that when I suggest we spice up our sex life, in a totally non-romantic manner, she stops talking to me and showing affection, but when another guy tells her he loves her and she responds in a manner usually reserved for me, if I get angry then I'm being ridiculous and she decides she isn't sorry. It was eerily reminiscent of the whole molestation/girl-kissing scenario. She gave me her same response of how she felt I was diminishing how special our sex life was, and how she wasn't comfortable bringing others into our sex life. I explained that I didn't share that view, that I saw it differently, but it became very obvious that the only way the argument would end was if I stopped talking about my swinging fantasies.

I explained that it would really bother me if I couldn't openly discuss something around her. It seems to me that an inability to communicate about something makes for an unhealthy relationship. But by now, she was so weary from the argument that she had basically written off any sort of experimentation. She left to head home not long after, and I half-faked feeling better so as to not end the night on a bad note.

At this point, I'm more than a little worried. I can already imagine it being difficult for me to avoid bringing up something that I'm interested in. And who's to say that experimentation stops at this? While sex isn't everything, I'm not naive enough to pretend that an unvaried 'missionary-with-whipped-cream-on-holidays' sex life is going to suffice.

The conflict here is that, despite the current situation, I love this girl more than I have ever loved anything. I have no desire to end the relationship, no desire to find someone new. I want no one but her, I just want her to have a more open mind. Part of me feels that I'm being unreasonable, and part of me feels that SHE is. But I know I don't want to propose to this woman (something I'm currently planning for) and know that I'm going to go forever not trying something that I want to try. I'm willing to give it time, yes, but I'm not going to forget about it.

So any opinion, whether for me or against me, is welcome.

Do I have a good point here, or do I just want to have my cake and have it try new things too?

PS I'm sorry about the lack of structure to this post, I'm getting a cold and my work is suffering because of it.

[sereneiders]

I'd say, don't worry too much.

This brings up another perspective on the age/generational subject, one you may not appreciate, but that I honestly have to point out: lack of experience.

Hey, this is nthing to be ashamed of. I am not talking about the experience once compared with your peers, you could be way more experienced than the average (I don't know), and certainly you seem to be way more mature than the average.

But when reading your post, I discovered myself smiling and noding... I've been there, I've done that. I recognize how painfull some things were, and at the same time, how I misunderstood the same signs, while later on experience allowed me a better understanding, making me have another way to face the same scenarios.

Let me give you an example, something I can put in words right now. The "I love you", "I love you, too" thing. I agree with you about this, I allways had the same feeling about the "I love you, too" answer, in one hand as "obligatory", but alsto as an automated response, much like saying "you're wellcome" after a "thank you". However, it isn't for me a big deal since long ago... because I found myself avoiding the "too", and yet, answering back "I love you" automatically, thus you get used to the whole sentence to the point it lacks meaning. And I can understand why your GF said it, automatically, to someone else, with that lack of meaning, without daring to tell you it was an automated response without meaning, since it is evident that you WANT this sentence to remain meaningfull, so by admiting this, she'd be entitling you to ask yourself how many "I love you" said to you were and will be meaningless as well. So, by now, I put my money on the actions, way more than on the words. I recall of GF's how actually loved me, while unwilling to admit it. They would say "No way, this is a friendhip with benefits, and I don't love you!" while having loving attitudes like being there cooking for me while I had a bad cold. She was proving in actions that the words were BS, and not because she wanted to lie or mess it up, but because of the way she needed to look at herself.

At some other level, the whole meaning for the word "love" changed along time. Did you ever saw a kid being asked "who do you love the most? daddy or mommy?". Well, that's a cruel question to ask, and a tricky one, giving for granted love is a measurable magnitude like distance or weigth. By now I believe the word "love" is a bag-word, we use it to mean a lot of feelings our language doesn't give us enough tools to discriminate, thus you love your parents, your brothers, your GF, your friends, and for each one of them the word love aquires a different meaning. Because of this, with my wife we made an agreenment, a silly one if you want: we coined a new word for OUR love (well, in fact we're talking of a fruit noun here, but there's no way to confuse it when you use it in the place of the word "love" in a sentence). So, we say "I love you", and it may be an automated response, but when we want to ephatize it, we use our private word.

And even so, the question of who she loves the most doen't bothers me anymore: I know she loves me, that she fulfills me, that she gives me more than enough as to request even more from her, and I don't feel the love she feels for other people were happening "at my cost", depriving me from something. And I know FOR SURE she love other people A LOT. For example, a former boyfriend of years who's a coworker by now (and because of this she spends with him 8 hours a day!), they love each other, they would give a kidney for the other... but I also know it is no longer the same love they felt when whey were a couple, but much like the sibiling's love. Of course, it happend to me, at some point, to feel a little jealous, however it is my problem, not hers. I wouldn't ask her to "choose" between her left and right arm, because she isn't supposed to have both of them. And if I were asking her to choose, then I know I wouldn't deserve to be chosen.

I am not telling I have a recipe for everyone here, just one that works for me. But the point is, I've been with several GF's, I've suffered, I've tought a lot, talked a lot, and found the grounds to change my mind and travel the path leaving me to this point. And I hope to keep changing, keep walking and keep learning: the more experience I have, the more experience I recognize I still lack.

This doesn't deprive what you're living, nor what you feel, from it value. On the contrary, it is so great for you that you're passing trought this sort of things, because this is the only way to aquire the experience, and to find the place from where to enjoy the life, the people you love, without having to take unneded pain.

And this has a lot to do with swinging. One way or another, swingers are guys who reached to a similar place, who focuses on certain aspects of a relationship and deprive other aspects from the importance most people wouldn't, like the sexuality as a "tool" devised exclusivelly to express the love.

Now, you will travel this path. It is unavoidable. You may want, today, to travel it with your GF all along the road. It may happen or not. Or as happened to a friend of mine, you two may split to gather experience on your own, and find again in a couple of years to keep walking togheter.

And there is a difference between what you'd two would be doing should you ever swing, and what we do when we swing. You have fantasies you'd like to experience, and it makes sense to have those experiences at least once, to know how it feels. You have the right to aquire those experiences, and, at the same time, you're aquiring experience on how to develop a relationship, and it's hard to fulfill both requirements, it seems that anyone of them would damage the other. In the other hand, your GF is learning on her own as well, she may have fantasies, she may want to live some of them, and she may want to AVOID living some of them... and guess what, she have the same right you have.

So far, it doesn't seems to me she wants to have the same sort of sexual experiences you want. And it isn't required to have those experiences "to grow up", to "evolve", or whatever.

You may be ready to explore recreational sex, but she doesn't seem to be ready, nor to want to. At least, not the same experiences you want, or if the same (like a girl-girl one), perhaps not the way you'd like... and perhaps not even before your eyes! She may want (and have the right) to discover herself, to find out who she is, what are her tastes, on her own, without your oppinion biased towards your own interests to "shape" the woman you want to be with.

You still may pursue to gather these experiences with her, she may agree, but it is very likely that your relationship won't be able to survive it, since nono of you have the experience on how to deal with your feelings, nor you developed enough communication skills to be able to openly talk about it without hurting each other feelings.

You may foresight all of this, understanding you two need to gather some experience before going on, and give each other permission to do so, or just take a break, and see if you both still wants to be togheter afterwards.

You may give up your fantasies. At your age, I wouldn't do that. However, I actually did the same when I choose to be with my wife: she disliked the idea of swinging, I realized I didn't need to swing (I would jack off from time to time, but... that wasn't new for me, nor something embarrasing... I still do, even when swinging ), and it took 14 years for her to give this a second tought and go for it. However, by the time we meet, I already had my quote of experience, I was tired of jumping from one bed to the next. Because of this I believe my own experience doesn't correlate here.

Or you may move on. Keep learning, gather experience, and at some point of the road, find (again?) someone able to rock your world.

I believe those are your options. It's up to you to evaluate your feelings, your cravings, your desires, and your pains to make your choice. I said I've been there, and because of this, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes right now.

Of course, all of this if you feel like having to choose. You may calm down, wait, live this relationship as it is by now, and see where this leads you to. This would be my choice.

Good luck!

[Tybee Swing]

It hurt you that you were (1) molested as a minor by an older woman and (2) that your girlfriend accused you of cheating. Anybody would be hurt by that reaction in your shoes. It sounds like it still hurts you. You need to talk to your girlfriend about this (wait for the right moment), and not connected in any way to swinging, not swinging, the goodbye with the gay friend, or anything else. I think this is an area that you really need resolution. I realize that your girlfriend was probably a minor at the time you were molested, and not thinking as a mature woman would about the situation at the time. Has she ever apologized for that accusation, and acknowledged that she was wrong? Is she sympathetic and understanding now about what happened to you?

Next: It's a bad idea to dredge up past events to use as tit-for-tat whenever you have an argument.

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

She gave me her same response of how she felt I was diminishing how special our sex life was, and how she wasn't comfortable bringing others into our sex life. I explained that I didn't share that view, that I saw it differently, but it became very obvious that the only way the argument would end was if I stopped talking about my swinging fantasies.

I explained that it would really bother me if I couldn't openly discuss something around her. It seems to me that an inability to communicate about something makes for an unhealthy relationship. But by now, she was so weary from the argument that she had basically written off any sort of experimentation.

This part of your post is classic, and it's where most men go wrong and become "pushy" with their wives/girlfriends on the swinging issue. She told you why it wouldn't work for her, and that she wasn't comfortable pursuing it. It's fine to see it differently, but to continue the "argument" is futile. to continue to "share your fantasies" at this point is only to push it and to force her to take an even stronger stance.

The best way to see this clearly is to visualize something that you really do not want to do (for any number of reasons), and imagine that it's your girlfriend's biggest new interest for the two of you. You tell her that you're not interested in pursuing it and you're not comfortable with it (meaning it ain't happening). She continues by saying she doesn't share your view, she wants to "continue to communicate openly" with you on this, including right now and she's making it an argument, when you have just told her that you don't want to do it and you even told her why. Make sense? It would sound like your girlfriend wasn't listening to you, was being selfish, was being pushy. Sometimes, you just need to drop the subject and leave things alone. Sometimes, harping on something is the hidden motive behind "communicating". Real communication means really hearing the other partner as much as expressing your own thoughts. In my humble opinion, respecting our partner trumps everything.

If you focus on the respect aspect, leave the swinging thing alone and get on with life. Enjoy your fantasies, but don't push them on your girlfriend. Some fantasies are meant to be private. Fantasies are highly personal. In the right place/right time, it's great to share them, but never make your fantasies into arguments, or agendas that you're pushing for. I think you had this fantasy of swinging a few days ago, it popped into your head, and you felt it very important to share it all with your girlfriend. It seemed very important to you to pursue it and hash it out as quickly as possible. The fact is, fantasies are just that, fantasies. Many will never become reality. In fact, even when they do, they turn out to not be like the fantasy you had (swinging is like that; most swingers agree that the reality of swinging is not at all the same as what they thought it would be)!

Remember, it takes most very well-established, longterm married couples months/years to get to swinging. These people have been together and have been developing their relationships a lot longer than you and your girlfriend have. When it comes to your swinging fantasies, patience is most definitely a virtue.

It could still happen, someday. But it will only happen if your partner develops her own high level of interest in swinging for herself, in her own time. You can't make that happen. It has to grow and develop naturally in a person.

Best wishes to you both!

[Tybee Swing]

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

Moments later, she was asking if I was bored with our sex life.

Then, kind of out left field, she began accusing me of not thinking that the sex that we have is special, that I was bored with her and just wanted someone else, and so on.

She gave me her same response of how she felt I was diminishing how special our sex life was

I just wanted to add....these feelings that she expressed are very normal and very common. Most women would think and say/ask the same things when this conversation comes up. It's important for you to know that most swingers are older for a reason. Most very young women are not ready or equipped for swinging, emotionally, and otherwise. At your girlfriend's age (under 21) I absolutely would not have even considered it. I was absolutely not ready for this at that stage of my life. I know that you don't want age-related responses, but this is the truth. However, the feelings she expressed are common for women of all ages. The fact is, most of the population doesn't swing for a reason - it's not for everybody. You need to understand and respect this fact.

Originally Posted by Ave Satanas

The conflict here is that, despite the current situation, I love this girl more than I have ever loved anything. I have no desire to end the relationship, no desire to find someone new. I want no one but her, I just want her to have a more open mind. Part of me feels that I'm being unreasonable, and part of me feels that SHE is.

Her mind is not yours to open in one direction or another. She, as an individual, has the right to develop in any direction that her path takes her. A person's mind opens to various possibilities in their own way, in their own time. Learn to respect this fact - not only about this girl, but about anybody else who may come into your life. No matter how much you love her or how long you'll be together, she will always be an individual with her own thoughts, feelings and fantasies which will never precisely match your own.

Best wishes.

[socolais]

I'm not sure why I feel compelled to add my noise to this thread - I can't speak from a swinging experience perspective. I read the guidance from experienced couples and have to conclude that they are compassionately sharing their hard-earned wisdom with you. You've found a good group of folks to help you sort out unfamiliar thoughts and emotions.

Significant emotional events have a way of precipitating behavior changes. When we're aware of this effect, we can consciously use it in a way to gain lasting strength rather than letting the Fates steer our ship through the emotional storm and accepting whatever happens naturally. Use this opportunity to assertively explore new behaviors for yourself that would tend to strengthen or improve your relationship together. I'm not talking big stuff here - it's the little things that accumulate and collectively make a big impact. The longest bridge is composed of pebbles and sand glued together with calcium mud.

[sereneiders]

I agree 100% with Tybee Swing. That was really good put.

[Ave Satanas]

Looking back on my last post, I feel really terrible for how I was being that day. I suppose I didn't realize how much I was pushing my opinion on her, and I'd like to thank Tybee, Sereneiders, and Socolais for their sagacious feedback. I really think that it has helped me grow as a person.

In other news, just when I was thinking my time on this forum might be over, everything completely changed on me. The girlfriend and I spent some time together without having any sex at all for a couple of days, in favor of relaxing and enjoying one another's company. I got over my cold for the most part, and all in all I think we were both feeling better.

And then tonight came along, she came over after work, I wasn't even counting on getting any, and somehow it headed in that direction. She started talking about all these new things we could try pertaining to a variety of mutual fetishes (with I won't get into, seeing as how this post is going to be racy enough), and after dinner, we... well.. started going at it.

Then, not long into the process, she began to talk (Yes, on occasion we will stop everything to say something) of a threesome, describing (as though she desired it) what she wanted from such an act. I enjoyed and encouraged the behavior, being sure to point out throughout that I loved only her, that I only wanted what she wanted in this, etc. It even got to the point where we were naming specific people, and in the end we both acknowledged that neither one of us was jealous. It was all very satisfying for both of us, right up until a roommate walked in... Thankfully that wasn't as big a problem as it could be. It was mostly just funny.

It might not seem like much, and eventually I might want more, but for now... This is good. It's a nice compromise. Afterwards, she even put some more thought into her whole bisexual curiosity, which was just frosting on the cake. I made sure to remind her that she has all the time in the world.

Later, the conversation turned to the topic of our mutual past, and I seized the opportunity to pull out Tybee's card, and brought up the whole molestation thing.

I told her how much her reaction had frightened and hurt me, and that I never truly received any closure, and as a result the whole situation still bothered me a lot. For one reason or another, she kept saying that she forgave me, and I had to come out and say that she shouldn't need to forgive me, I had done nothing wrong. I told her I wasn't looking for forgiveness, but rather an apology. Even then, she said that she couldn't honestly apologize for her reaction because "she was mad at the time". I had to point out of a situation when I was young where I punched my dad because I thought he was my little brother, and once I discovered that I was wrong, I felt sorry.

It took some more explaining, but she apologized, and for the first time, I feel as though the whole situation is finished.

I'll keep you all posted, but for now I want to thank you all again for your help, because it has helped me in more ways than I can count.

[Tybee Swing]

AS,

I'm so glad you're feeling better about a lot of things, but especially about your past molestation and your girlfriend's reaction at the time. I guess she just didn't understand that it was no different from an adult man forcing himself on her when she was a minor (and in a position of authority, like the driving teacher was). If she understands that what happened to you is no different than if it had happened to her, then she truly gets it.

By the way, I'm glad that you called the police and that it was taken seriously by authorities. You may have saved other young people from the same treatment. Kudos to you.

Continued best wishes with everything.

[Ave Satanas]

Thanks, Tybee, you really helped me realize how much that still bothered me.

And on a side note, I actually drove by where the incident happened, and the driving school has since closed down, which is good. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.