Why swinging is not for me

intuition897 · 03-08-2006, 07:32 PM

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Originally Posted by JnCC

So often, people just drop-out of the lifestyle. They stop coming to parties or clubs, don't answer e-mails, don't return calls. If you happen to meet up with them at a non-swinger event, they'll just say "We're taking a break."

The fact that they would discuss swinging in a non-swinger (AKA vanilla?) situation is something in itself. Just curious; did you actually ask them for a reason why they were taking a break?

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Originally Posted by JnCC

Too often, it seems, that "break" has something directly or indirectly to do with swinging. It's not often that someone takes the time to 'fess up, and reveal exactly what led them to their decision to place swinging on hold...maybe forever.

It occurs to me that the particulars of their decision to swing are nobody's business but their own. They don't owe anyone anything, and an explanation shouldn't be expected. It's their life and they are free to do what they will. If it became obvious to Mr. intuition and I that their relationship was troubled, and it appeared that they were swinging in spite of that - maybe even to try an "fix" it - we, of course, would politely decline playing with them...not giving a specific reason. As you say JnCC, sometimes you have to be on the outside looking in to appreciate that the entirety of a problem.

We're in the middle of self-imposed play-break, ourselves. Is it a break, or is it the end? Whichever it is, I just can't fathom how that is of any importance to anyone...even our playmates.

sereneiders · 03-08-2006, 08:27 PM

Intuition,

I believe I understand what JnCC said here. For example, It may be true that no one owes us anything, but I feel we owe a lot of things to some couples, moreover in our beginings. People who took the time to talk with us, first at chat rooms, then face to face, just to provide us the same sort of advice people get here, and without second intentions nor trying to push us into their beds. These couples gave us valuable insights, helped us understand the codes, show the same interest in the personal issues we disclosed openly with them than a a lot of forum members who does the same whit anyone expressing a doubt or a problem. They didn't needed to do this, but they did and it was a gift we threasure and we are thankfull for. These people taught us swingers have that high moral standards that impressed me and made me want to have them as friends. And if some odd thing happens to us in this path, we wouldn't blame them, moreover, we'll be still as thankfull as we are today.

If at some point we'd take a break that makes them miss us, I feel they deserved the right to know what's going on, and earned our confidence as to let them know. THis feedbak would be a way to be respectfull with people who was extremelly respectfull with us.

Of course, this doesn't happens with all the swinger couples we've meet since then, but from time to time some other couple appears and earns the same credits.

Yes, we know we have the right to say "it's not your business, dude", and we'd be being unnecesarily rude. In the worst case, we would be saying "we run into some troubles inside our marriage and we need to review all of this. Excuse me if I don't give you all the details, it's too private/painfull to talk about it".

So, giving feedback when you want to split is a way to express the appreciation and gratitude you have towards these people. And this is what I think Tempest did here, and I appreciate both the in deepth explanation AND her attitude toward us.

Saying that it's worthless to tell what happend, that "it isn't our business", could misslead someone into thinking what Tempest did lacks a big part of it value, would be to deprive Temtest from a gratitude gesture she may feel she owe to us. It is like when you invite someone to dinner because you want to show appreciation or gratitude, but at the end that one picks the bill and end up buying a dinner you planned to buy yourself. This someone would be dpriving you from you right to express your appreciation and gratitude, and keeping (if not increasing) your debt feelings.

In the other hands, it's at least noticeable what JnCC said, that people take a break and fade away without feeling the need to explain to anyone, and besides being a valid complain, it enhance Tempest attitude. By pointing out or appreciation for her feedback to us, we'd be encouraging others to do the same.

kingdruman · 03-08-2006, 11:29 PM

3 years we have been looking into swinging....

this is the first time i actually got my toes in the water

we are grandparents...there is no issue of 'mo youngins'

we are adults and we are desiring other folk to hang out with and have some fun.....

could b sexual...always sensual

i understand this soul reasoning and i am thankful for it.

this thread truly drives home to me WHY 'king and linda' came to a swinger board in the first place.

we have no need to make babies...already got an houseful of youngins

want adult company

starved for it ...reckon?

intuition897 · 03-08-2006, 11:53 PM

I guess I should have clarified that it was the actual decision that didn't matter. Everyone has to do what's right for them. I just imagined myself in a couple's shoes where a past playmate tries prodding and prying for details that I might not feel comfortable divulging. Being approached in this manner would seem invasive to me, especially if I'm discussing it in a non-swinger environment. But Tempest's input is genuinely appreciated.

Having the common courtesy to tell your playmates that you will no longer play with them/be in contact with them is just good manners. It does suck when people just vanish without apparent reason.

I appreciate the value of communication - as all swingers do - and I do appreciate it when someone fills in the blanks for us in a situation like that. I've probably misread it, but for some reason, JnCC's post seemed to imply that people should somehow be expected to explain themselves. Having been in a tricky situation ourselves, where a couple we were playing with were having very obvious conflicts with the lifestyle, we would have found it extremely awkward to explain the reasoning for our distancing ourselves from them. We were walking a very fine line there, between doing them (and us) a favour by stopping play, and getting involved in parts of their marriage that were just none of our business by telling them what we thought their problems were. All we knew was that we were uncomfortable with things as they were, but didn't have a way to politely explain it.

Perhaps it's a difference of culture or just a difference of opinion, but we do value our privacy with respect to the inner workings of our marriage, and we try to give others the same personal space that we know we need for ourselves.

JnCC · 03-09-2006, 12:31 PM

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Originally Posted by intuition897

The fact that they would discuss swinging in a non-swinger (AKA vanilla?) situation is something in itself.

That depends on what kind of "non-swinger" situation you're talking about. It doesn't bother me to discuss personal matters in a public place, provided that I'm in a spot where we can do it with minimum interruption and without being overheard by passers-by. For example, the atrium of a shopping mall, a park bench, or even the secluded corner of a bar or restaurant would probably be OK. A crowded elevator would not.

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Just curious; did you actually ask them for a reason why they were taking a break?

No...because among those close to us, we never needed to...we already knew. The ones we didn't know that well, we heard about through the grapevine. Lifestyle or not, "people still talk," especially about people who have dropped from the scene. (I'll bet you know things about people in your local swinging community that they didn't tell you)

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It occurs to me that the particulars of their decision to swing are nobody's business but their own. They don't owe anyone anything, and an explanation shouldn't be expected. It's their life and they are free to do what they will.

Of course...that's why I was taken by Tempests post. She didn't need to do it, but she took the time to do it anyway. There IS another side to swinging that doesn't get much attention on boards such as this one, and that's what happens when things don't work out. How does a couple know? What are their first clues? What are the after-effects? I think Tempest brought those issues up quite well, while avoiding whatever messy details (assuming there were some) that may have attended her own decision to leave the lifestyle. Some people, (myself included) recognize her concerns as ones we've had to deal with as well.

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JnCC's post seemed to imply that people should somehow be expected to explain themselves. Having been in a tricky situation ourselves, where a couple we were playing with were having very obvious conflicts with the lifestyle, we would have found it extremely awkward to explain the reasoning for our distancing ourselves from them.

I think you're talking now about whether it's appropriate to tell somebody else why you're not playing with them, not why you're not playing, period. But since you brought it up, I don't think anyone is ever "obligated" to explain why they've chosen not to play with somebody. If they do take the time to explain, (and it's happened to "us" as a couple, and "me" as a single, both in and out of the lifestyle) I take it as the highest compliment...a chance to correct my approach before trying again with somebody else.

sereneiders · 03-10-2006, 04:02 AM

Thinking about what happend here with Tempest, I am asking myself the wuestion of how good and accurate the TALK, TALK, and TALK advice we provide is.

To avoid hihacking this thread, I jumped into a new one I called:

We say TALK, TALK, and TALK, but... how much TALK is enough TALKing?.

See you there.

Tempest419 · 03-13-2006, 05:40 PM

Sereneiders:
I do not mind you hijacking the thread, I enjoyed your posts very much! I was impressed with your insights and yes, I do have insight into where and why.

Ms. Hot:
"After reading lots and lots of posts and especially this post, I asked myself a question... would I be in this lifestyle if I wasn't with my man? I think that's a really important question...." ]
-that is all I could hope for by posting. I'm not proposing everyone's answer, I just want to pose that question.

Intuition:
Very much to the heart of the post, I thought, was my willingness to fool myself.... to "talk myself out of" or into, certain emotions.

JnCC:
You have keen insight. I wasn't able to get online all weekend and when I came back and re-read, I realized how much of my heart was in it, but I think you saw that

.

Thanks to everyone who was so kind about it, I was really afraid to post my thoughts... probably b/c I knew a few barbs were gonna get thrown. But if one of my friends came to me and said, "I'm thinking about swinging, what was your experience?" Well I hope that I could share my thoughts. (So does this make ya'll friends?

) These were my conclusions. It's not my bag. It's funny that Intuition referred to it being a gift between she and her spouse... well, that's also an apt analogy for me too, except my husband has many years history of picking out items he would like to receive himself, or thinks I should like... not putting himself in my position and finding out what I would actually want. I don't know how many times I've been on the receiving end of a gift I didn't ask for, nor did I like.

And no matter how many times someone says it's entirely about (mis)communication... I am on the other end. Even beyond swingers, I worry about a country at large that can be so easily duped with the subtleties of language. Sometimes truths are painful no matter the semantics or how pc-dotted the language is, and maybe we should be okay with sitting on that for a moment. You can put a bright, pretty bow on a turd and it's still a piece of shit at the end of the day... Nice title... still bullshit. There are some manipulative people in the world, shockingly so. It's in you. It's in me. Those who claim to not have any "demons" are usually the ones who have the most obvious ones! The light cannot exist without the dark, it just can't. The hope is that we'll all find a nice compromise in the middle.

It was difficult to express my dissatisfaction and issues with the lifestyle without stepping on the toes of those for whom it is good... perhaps that can't be done. I tried, out of respect. Each couple's dynamic is particular to them and they must navigate it the best they know how. I have vanilla friends for whom this lifestyle might work out great but who would never do it for religious/socio reasons, which is the opposite of me: I have no problem bucking social/religious dogma, but you shouldn't do it for the sake of doing it, for me it should be a cause close to my heart, something I really want. And it's not like Husband had his bags packed "or else," it was more of an emotional insecurity that I tried to negotiate against my inner jugdement. Being victim doesn't accomplish anything, healing requires that painful, epiphanic moment when you realize where you betrayed yourself at some level. I hope that duality is implied, as I had my own curiosities and fantasies to explore. I'm definitely into the exhibitionism/voyeurism part of it, and someday, still could be. I like watching and being watched, but I'm not sure how much room there is for that if you're not practicing an open relationship, so who knows? but if I am welcome here I could certainly stick around

This might be interesting to add--the aftershocks aren't even entirely in my marriage. I have felt like this goes way beyond my marriage, and into me as an individual. In early February, my much older friend for whom I've been working since last summer, knowing I'd been having a hard time in my marriage after practicing an open relationship for a while (no details), started subtley coming on to me in the workplace. I would politely step away from his arm on my shoulder, or not respond and change the subject with certain innuendos... til finally one day he decides to thank me for a good job in sales by grabbing either side of my face and kissing me on the lips! No tongue, but still... it was a shock. He was very apologetic but the fact is, I just couldn't be comfortable there anymore, and I never went back. The bigger lesson for me was that while I'd had fun, I had also been "invaded" several times in this lifestyle, unasked... at the club, at home, and now at my work place, and I had to go to a place of licking my wounds. I had to ask myself how I was "asking" for it. As Dave Chapelle accurately paralleled... "Ms., you may not be a whore, but you are wearing a whore's uniform!" (And no I didn't dress that way at work at all, it's just an attitude analogy...) Other women have been invaded in this lifestyle, too, much more violently than I, and while we all have it straight in our heads what we are doing, unfortunately society to large extent does not. A friend of mine was going through a break up at the same time and our mantra for the month became, "I am more than a pussy!"

At the same time, I was just offered a better position at a non-profit... one door closes, and another opens. Doesn't mean the lessons aren't painful, and sometimes we need the impetus of strife to inspire us to new heights. I suppose I just want to be a lot more choosy "picking my battles."

This May will be 13 years that we have been living together, and that's a long time. It's the number of the witch, of death, and the phoenix... and that's the point for me. The natural order of life on this planet is that everything goes through a death cycle before being reborn... witness Spring! Perhaps something needed to be completely dissolved to allow for new growth.

With all of the well wishes... I'd be happy to pop back in. I wasn't sure how it would be received here. But sex is still an interesting subject, like I said, I enjoyed the exhibitionism and fantasy, and there are points where I think I made good decisions, too... but I am involved with my other hobbies heavily again so I don't have oodles of time.

Thanks again to everyone so kind, you make me glad I came back to update.

Tempest

sereneiders · 03-14-2006, 03:45 AM

Tempest,

Thanks again for such a toughtfull insight.

I believe I express everyone's else oppinion when saying you're more than welcome to keep sharing your toughts and experience.

As for me, the "swinger" definition have way much less to do with the recrational sex than with an attitude regarding the way you relate with other people, both your spouse and others around you, and this is because to be able to share your sexuality with others outside your marriage (it doesn't matter to wich extent) you require such an attitude. You have it, and that's what counts for me.

Wheter we may like it or not, your experience is a valid one and it reflects one of the many ways the swinging approaching and developing proccess may evolve. No one would like to be in your shoes right now, and hopefully your post will help minimize the chances for someone else reading it, that recognize him/herself in your words, of being in your shoes.

And this isn't something worth only for these people, also for the entire community of lifestylers. We're the first ones advicing against swinging when we feel something doesn't fit, and I believe this is also a selfish attitude the preserve the healthy of our community. We wouldn't like to face drama personally when meeting new people, we wouldn't like to be seen as "home wreckers" by the rest of the society, we have high moral standards and we'd like there, as a community, to be appreciated. So I strongly believe that embrance every experience, even the odd ones, is the healtiest thing we can do for ourselves and for the community.

About your comment on (mis)communication, with all the ramifications implied, I have to say I agree with you. I know this is a political incorrect comment in this forum (we shouldn't talk politics, but well... we are politized, by action or omition, it's part of our lifes and sometimes it's unavoidable), but being and outsider wittness of how some things evolve in the core of the society leading the world, and feeling such a leadership have implications that affects my fate and the fate of everyone all around the world (even inside the core), it is refreshing to hear someone from this core being aware of this, and having the guts to talk about it. For the ones who had the experience of being misleaded by means of these "subtleties of language", when watching some things happen, we end up with the certainity of a pretty dark future. People expressing your toughs brings some light to that eventual darkness, and I have to thank you for this. I wonder if you've been reading Noham Chomsky, and if you didn't, I believe you'd enjoy his insights and researchs about this matter.

Please, stick around, let us know of how you life evolve from now and on, and share your oppinions with us.

intuition897 · 03-14-2006, 03:24 PM

Thanks for coming back to update. While I don't see things the way you do, I still really enjoy reading your posts.

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