How to suggest a "Swap" but not "Lose" ?

[NuCpl]

We are very interested in swapping with a couple (or rather pairing Mrs off with Mr2, with the oh-so-obvious chemistry between the two) that we have been freinds with for a long time.
The big question: How do we raise the topic, without loosing our friends?
Or loosing face because they turn out to be old-world-ethical?
Please help.

[good times]

Sorry but I know of no way to assure you that if you bring it up you will not lose them as friends. We have lost friends by doing just that and have decided that it just isn't worth it. We will gladly make friends of the people we swing with but will never in the future try to make swingers out of our non swinging friends.

[NakedInSeattle]

Yes, lost a good friend, too. Best to make friends of swingers but not swingers of friends.

[intuition897]

I confided about our lifestyle in a friend of mine, and while she is a very open-minded "whatever floats your boat" kind of girl, and she and her husband are curious about it, we would never think to "initiate" them into the lifestyle. Partly because they're just not ready for it psychologically, but mainly because she's a friend and I really, REALLY wouldn't want things to get weird. And I'm sure they would get weird at best, and badly damaged at worst.

I've heard of 3somes and moresomes working out with friends, but for us, the risk is much much too high. NakedInSeatle and GoodTimes are both right: make friends of swingers, but don't make swingers of friends. You're going to do what you're going to do and the mutual attraction you mentioned is a pretty persuasive factor. All we can do is advise you of the risks involved. I already mentioned some, but consider some of the the other risks. If this friendship ever turned sour for any reason, you just gave your friend some very interesting ammunition. Swing with a stranger and even a really bad date can be easily forgotten as everyone goes on their separate ways, wiser for the experience. But swing with someone close to you and suddenly things get complicated. They get "weird". Sex is really a dangerous thing because it speaks to people on such a deep level of their conscience. It makes people behave unprecdictably. It causes them to need to deal with thoughts, emotions, attitudes, beliefs, insecurities and fears that they can otherwise successfully bury in their subconscience. For example, a guy sees another guy with a bigger willy satisfying his wife. Maybe he's excited, or maybe he freaks out and explodes with jealousy and insecurity. Or the third guy can't get or keep an erection, even though he's been salivating over the other guy's wife for months. Why? Probably because he feels very uncomfortable doing something that he believes is wrong for one reason or another (meddling in your marriage, adultery, or whatever). Another risk is that one or more people won't be able to differentiate between love and lust, and someone falls "in love" with another (could be a pretty nasty situation with a friend of yours). Maybe someone you play with has been a victim of sexual assault/abuse (and hasn't told you, of course) and they become very angry, frightened, depressed, etc during play. A woman sees her husband thoroughly enjoying the exotic delights of another woman, and her imagination starts to tell her that he's been wanting this all along, and now he doesn't want her anymore...obviously. So breaks into tears and starts thumbing throught the yellow pages for divorce lawyers. Or what if one person who was reluctant at first finds that she really enjoys swinging, but realizes honestly that she is really not attracted to her own husband physically.

These are things that people have to think through, and it's sex that is the catalyst. Monogamous sex seemed much safer in this respect, because it was a static thing. It was off in its own little world (which is fine for some folks). But if you're going to bring sex into a more social sphere like swinging, suddenly there are all sorts of things you can't ignore anymore.

This is the long way of asking: how is your friend going to react to the news that you are swingers? To your proposition? The answer: no one knows. Not even your friend knows, likely. And it is precisely because that answer is so unpredictable that we don't swing with long-time friends.

[NuCpl]

Thank you for your advice, Naked.., GT, and Intuition. What you guys say is true. Wish there was a way though. It would be so sad to realise later that we lost a good opportunity just for the asking!!
We do know the couple is very much into sex and have had a modernistic upbringing. Plus, hubbies have relished sharing and listening to stories of their respective bedroom antics.
Thanks once again.

[Miss_Piggy]

I don't think it's entirely a bad idea to play with your friends... but it has to be done with extreme caution. We've seen it fall apart before - but we've also seen it work quite nicely.

If you really want to give it a shot, proceed slowly. Flirt with them, and talk about the subject in more abstract terms. Watch how the react. This way you have thew freedom to just peddle back a tiny bit and your relationship with your friends is back to normal.

Good luck.

[NuCpl]

Intuition897, we loved your insight into the emotional ramifications of non-monogamous sex. Most of these problems can manifest in sex with swingers-turned-friends or friends-turned-swingers.
Guess, we should divulge some more of ourselves to help you guys help us. We are monogamous; to-date. We look at sex as an emotional and a physical thing.
Doing it with strangers might not come easy. In retrospect, it feels like things will just flow with these friends. Subtle overtures, as suggested by Miss Piggy would go a long way then.
Once we get nitiated into the lifestyle, things could change. Right now turning friends to swingers seems (superficially atleast) easier. We sure don't know. What do the experienced have to say?

[Vespertine]

I have mixed feelings and mixed experiences with seducing friends... and in my opinion, the one friend we lost was enough to never do it again.

If they are "true" friends, I would suggest not going there.

[intuition897]

Nucpl, as I mentioned, that friend of mine and I have no problem discussing sex. In fact, she and her hubby and I have often sat around the kitchen table chatting, and it comes up very easily and comfortably. No weirdness there. But there are boundaries I just don't want to cross with them. I have zero interest in them sexually.

Some things you've mentioned bring other points to mind. It sounds like you two are probably not "swinger" material just yet. Ok, so non-monogamous sex is a definite interest, but by definition swingers do not become emotionally involved or "romantic" with their playmates. It's mutually understood that we've all found our own soulmates and have no interest in developing any other long-term, in-depth romantic relationships with anyone else. Our personal emotional/relationship space.

If your interested in keeping love and sex together as one entity, and interested in seeking other relationships that extend beyond the sexual, you might consider looking into polyamory. While we certainly don't feel that we're cold or emotionless with our playmates, it feels more like (temporary) friendship with benefits. We honour and respect one another as human beings, and treat one another with dignity. It's low-voltage love. The kind you feel for other people simply because you and they are human. If this is not enough, look up polyamory.

[menher1559]

Well, it's 2am, so i'm gonna jump on this bandwagon...nothing better to do...

First all the advice given is excellent, and it's based on experience. Inevitably however, you and your partner will have to decide whether or not this is the best thing for you...My suggestion is not to jump in head first, but rather, test the waters in general terms and process the feedback.

Wife and I have some wonderful friends that we have discussed this with. We've approached them in general terms and have gotten some positive response. Now with that being said, wife and I decided, it would be more of a swap thing rather than a swinging thing..(yeah we believe there is a difference) And if we decide to go that route, we would pair up on our own dates on the same nights, rather than having same room sex. We just believe given the demeanor of our friends that would be the best option.

So again, go slow, get a feel and proceed with caution...Friends can be wonderful play partners, as well as play partners being wonderful friends...

[Sweet_Candy]

We've introduced our close friends to the Lifestyle after we had become friends. We will not swing with them however because we know the dynamics of our relationship will change for good or bad and it will change. We're comfortable with our relationship with them as it stands now.

[mitzi54]

Our first "swing" experience was with a couple we have been friends with for almost a decade. They happened to be swingers and we never knew. About a year and a half ago when my wife and I started swinging and we found out they were swingers it all just came together. We were lucky I guess. There has been no weirdness or problems at all. We still can just hang out and talk all night and we don't feel like we have to be swinging that night. All our vanilla friends know they are swingers but have no clue about us.

[girlygirl69]

We recently had the same debate - whether or not to swing with friends or with people we didn't know or both. In the end we decided we wanted to swing with this one couple we knew and it has gone really well so far. Everyone has to be open minded and communicating about anything and everything. My husband actually asked my girlfriend at a Halloween party if she was into swinging after a few drinks (not a great idea) but it worked! We always were flirting and a bit perverted with them and thought they were swingers from how they acted. Turns out this couple had never even discussed it before! AHH! We thought we would be known as the dirty perverted friends but then they got thinking about it and things progressed from there and we're still good friends and very open about everything. Now we're friends with benefits! facelick So - I wouldn't rule it out completely. At the same time you want to value your friendship above getting it on with a friend. Know what I mean?

[WesternSwing]

We feel it would be very difficult to make playmates out of friends and keep them as friends, where it is very easy to make friends out of playmates and keep them as playmates. This is because the relationship is entered into with the dynamic of sex already being there. There is a very clear understanding of the bounderies of the relationship right up front.

Mr. WS

[NuCpl]

Thank you once again everyone, for your wonderful advice. Your help is very much appreciated. Looks like we need more hand-holding though head bang

The problem with us, is that we come from a very conservative society. So, besides crossing the uncharted waters of swinging (we are newbies), we have to muster enough courage to break societal taboos.

Here are some facts to help you help us: We are very much in love. The friendship with this other couple, we feel, progressed very much due to the strong undercurrents of physical attraction. There were probably some indications from them to take our relationship to a new level of intimacy, that we, unfortunately, failed to recognise and act upon in time. Guess, we are late bloomers

So then, our question is:
How should we test the waters, break the ice?
Please, please share specific ideas, experiences to help us further our interest.