She crossed our limitation of soft-swinging and had intercourse

[cuzzeyesaidso]

I'm suspicious. I think she wanted this the whole time. All she needed was a window of opportunity. She may have had a few drinks, but she wasn't that damn drunk.

[WesternSwing]

That's a good point, bigjoehd.

Another good question to ask is:

1) Why would I love her different for having sex with another guy? and

2) Would I love my wife any different if I had sex with another woman?

Are you going to love your wife less if she has had sex with someone else? If the answer to this is "yes" then you should be nowhere near the Lifestyle. And why would you love her less? What is is about it that shatters your world and your perception of her? Why would you think less of her?

Would you love her less, or different, if you have sex with another woman? I'll bet you'll say "no". Then why would you think her love for you would be less because she had sex with another man? Isn't this discounting her intelligence? Do you think she is not as smart as you? Do you think she is too dumb to separate love and sex like you can?

Neither is really fair to her. It really IS your own insecurity. Jealousy is insecurity in disguise. It's the fear that someone else will be preferred over you. It's thinking you are not as good as someone else, or that someone else could hold more value to your spouse than you do.

I know you're hurting. You need to talk to her about it, though. You both need to talk calmly and without judgment of each other. It'll be tough because you're hurt and she'll be defensive.

Remember, though, its not the issues that define a relationship, it's the way you handle them as a couple.

Mr. WS

[Larry & Michell]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I know what I should do, which is forgive and forget. But I'm just not there yet. She tells me she doesn't remember any of it, that it was all the booze. I believe her when she tells me it would never happen again (I'm not so sure about not remembering any of it. Its a little frustrating. She says she remembers me talking to her after the first time, and then thats it. If she doesn't remember, she can't tell me why, what she was thinking, what was going through her head. Although I'm pretty sure the brutally honest answer would be that she was just real horny and didn't want to stop. So thats just my insecurities bubbling to the surface). She's upset that I can't move past it. She and I are very different that way. She does get past things like this easier. They linger longer with me. I'm sure its my problem. It probably is my own insecurities. But I just can't shake it yet. I know I wasn't ready for this "what-if". Its a movie I play over and over in my head.
Michelle is my GF, not wife. So we don't live together. So I'm not forced to share a bed, which might force us to hash it out. I'm not really looking for any more advice. Its something I need to come to peace with one way or the other in my own heart. I don't know how this story ends. To those of you who think I am totally unfairly punishing Michelle, and I am being a total asshole, I don't disagree with you. I know she doesn't love me less. I know at this point its my fault for not being able to handle this in the way I should. But I'm not doing this (at this point anyway) to punish her. If I blow this, its my fault now, and my loss. But a solution that makes so much sense on paper just isn't making it from my brain to my heart. Maybe it will, but this type of thing always takes me a while to deal with. General depressive personality I guess. Usually when I want to, I can fight these moods. I don't think I'm trying too hard right now.
Thanks again for everyone's responses.
Larry

[DBL D]

It has probably happened to most of us...heat of the moment thing. Fem D and I have both broken our "rules" and it really puts a damper on things after it happens.

Alot of us think that the "rules" are just guidelines and some of us think they are like the 10 Commandments. You find out real quick if you can handle sexual things well or not.

A few of the things I've learned:

1) Respect for each other is most important.

2) If one of you is way ahead of the other in your beliefs about how you want your life in the lifestyle to be, and your SO never seems to "grow", in your opinion, you will find it takes a lot longer to get there. Patience is one thing that is asked for most in the early going. Your wife should respect that.

3) You can forgive and move on if you really want the lifestyyle to be part of your life. Your wife may be thinking that swinging isn't for you because you are having such a hard time. Perhaps you should take a break.

4) Seems like swinging is a constant compromise. Couples will say how they want others to help them with fulfilling their fantasies...but that is usually a compromise in itself. Then you get with a couple and find that they also have different ideas about things, and you discuss rules. And your heart starts to sink. You think you'll never get what you want and your SO doesn't seem to notice your frustration. At the same time, you may not see the slower ones "progress" if you are so into what You want. You see, we all have at least 2 types of fantasies...Those we see for us as a couple and the individual fantasies that our mates will never help you (or doesn't want you to) realize. If you decide that you are giving each other sexual freedom to fulfill your own fantasies, you still have to have rules so you can trust each other during those times.

5) I used to think that swingers were the most open of people. I don't think that anymore. I've seen too many good looking people, through their profiles, who just don't communicate well. If anyone should be on the same page, it's you two. Maybe a break would work...probably not. When most people take a break, they don't talk about swinging; it's all about "getting back into each other" so there is a lag when you do start to want to play again. While most say they understand the need to take a break, it's usually a red flag to them and you may have to start over again in your searches.

6) Swinging just doesn't work for all who want to swing (we know it won't work for most vanilla folks) and it's usually because of the fact that one or the other can't really handle seeing their mate with someone else or you can't reach an acceptable compromise between you. Be honest with each other in what you are looking for. Tell your SO your fantasies and fears and work through them. If you find that one of you is hesitant to do that...well, that's not too good.

It is really late so I'm not sure how cohesive my statements are going to look, but maybe you can garner something from them.

Good luck to ya anyway.

Male D

[Larry & Michell]

I'm using this board as some sort of therapy for myself;

Everything I'm saying here I've said to Michelle, in all this same detail.

Yesterday I wanted to find a way to hurt her back. Not just once, because that would just make us even, so I wanted to hurt her twice, so she could really know how I feel. I know how sick and twisted that is. I hated being in that place. It hurt, and then it hurt some more. She told me I couldn't love her if I wanted to hurt that way. I disagreed. I wouldn't care, I wouldn't hurt if I didn't love her. Like I said, I know how sick and twisted and dark my heart was. I told her that over the phone in the morning.

We spoke later that day. I didn't want to hurt her anymore. I just wanted my own pain to go away. I don't know how to make that happen. I told her that since, to a large degree, our lives revolve around the club, since this all happened in the club, I think if there is any possible healing for me, I think it would have to involve the club. I said that I don't know if it will make me feel better, help the pain, but without some kind of making things "even", I don't think I can ever move past it. The fact is I don't know if it will help. I'm saying I need these activities like a doctor making a diagnosis. I feel no pleasure or excitement in saying them. I don't even think I want to do them. But I don't know if its possible for me and Michelle to get back to where we were without it. But let me say now that I'm not doing this to hurt Michelle. I don't know if it will make a difference. But I don't think I can move past this without it. Its like Terry Bradshaw used to say in the huddle "You might lose with me, but you can't win without me".

I had dinner at my house with my daughter and mother last night. I invited Michelle. She came. It was tough. Later that night, Michelle and I sat on the couch. I cried on her shoulder so much. And then I cried some more. We made love. But it still hurts.

I woke up this morning angry. So angry. I walked her to her car after breakfast. I told her that all I felt was anger. We're planning on going to the club tonight. Kind of like going for radiation treatment. Thats how much I'm looking forward to it (luckily I fake things pretty well - you should have seen me in business meetings this week). I told her maybe she doesn't want to do this, to deal with me this way. I don't even know if it will make a difference. But like I said before, without it, I know we can't win. But I told her how angry I was. (I much prefer straight out aggression to passive-aggressive behavior). I told her she really might not want to go through this with me. She wants to try. My heart is so dark. Just pain, anger. I hate being me right now.

[bigjoehd]

Originally Posted by Larry & Michell

I'm using this board as some sort of therapy for myself;

Everything I'm saying here I've said to Michelle, in all this same detail.

Yesterday I wanted to find a way to hurt her back. Not just once, because that would just make us even, so I wanted to hurt her twice, so she could really know how I feel. I know how sick and twisted that is. I hated being in that place. It hurt, and then it hurt some more. She told me I couldn't love her if I wanted to hurt that way. I disagreed. I wouldn't care, I wouldn't hurt if I didn't love her. Like I said, I know how sick and twisted and dark my heart was. My heart is so dark. Just pain, anger. I hate being me right now.

Hey guy,you need to grow up,this nonsense is the exact reason my wife & I gave up on couples & only see single people,too much drama & the way your acting violence is not out of the question,this isnt about you knowing that she broke a rule or knowing that she was with another man its about you feeling left out & that she got to do something that you didnt.

Tell the truth here,you rushed into this thinking you could somehow"control" things,this lifestyle isnt about one person controling another persons actions & you found out the hard way,your going on about how you feel but what about the couple involved? are the aware that this is happening?

You mentioned going to the club again to somehow "get even".God help the poor couple that gets stuck in the middle of all this just so you can feel better,you should stop now before somebody gets hurt.

Im not trying to be a prick but my wife & I have been on the recieving end of a drama just like the one thats unfolding in your life & its scary as hell when your "the other couple",again you should get a grip before all this leads to violence.

[lovinher]

Here we go again.. blaming the offended instead of the offender and pass it off as his immaturity and insecurities. They were a soft swing couple. Jumping from soft swing to fucking someone without mutual consent is usually called cheating on this board. This would have been the end of our swinging around here. At least until trust was regained. Guess I need therapy of some kind.
If HE had fucked someone and it was the wife posting, I doubt anyone would have accused her of being insecure. Is he over reacting? I think so, but the guy IS allowed to be extremely pissed and hurt in my book.
So what then, if you call yourself a swinger anything goes? Unbelievable!
Very few people are as secure and emotionally perfect as some proclaim to be.

[good times]

While I agree with what Lovinher said I also can see where BigJoehd is coming from too, because we have been there more than once.

In my opinion, the OP here has no business going to a swingers club if he is having these issues. It is true that his girlfriend overstepped the agreed upon boundaries but, in my view anyway, he is overreacting here. If he now goes to the club again with these unresolved issues it is almost certain to just lead to more drama which no one needs, that includes him, his girlfriend, or anyone else unlucky enough to get involved with them.

You can probably guess from what I've said that one of my pet peeves is the amount of people I see coming to the clubs that are not ready to be there, let alone ready to be swingers. This is how I can say I understand bigjoehd's feelings, we have been unfortunate enough to have hooked up with people who are not secure enough in there relationship or where one half of the couple has insecurities not compatible with swinging, and let me tell you, it usually ruins the whole evening for us.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by lovinher

Here we go again.. blaming the offended instead of the offender and pass it off as his immaturity and insecurities.

Sorry lovinher, I have to agree with bigjoe on this one. This isn't about where to point one's finger. The lifestyle is not about placing blame. It emphasizes, rather, that each and every person is accountable for their own actions and their own emotions. bigjoe is essentially pointing out that Larry seems to be avoiding that part. It's pretty important to recognize that it's not nice (and not fair) to impose one's problems on others. Michelle was wrong in thinking that because she didn't think it was a big deal, that voided Larry's feelings on the matter. Going forward when your partner says no (in any way, shape or form) is breaking the rules!

But it's true that two wrongs won't make things right. Larry, you've just gotten it in your head that this is important. Instead of finding out the hard way that it's not, after you've gone and screwed someone else to "get even" and purposely and knowingly hurt Michelle, why not take some time to really ask yourself why this is so important? What is the end goal here?? To see the hurt in her eyes? To know you've purposely scarred someone you're supposed to love in an attempt to feel justice has been served? I'm sorry, but that's not my definition of love.

Do it at your own peril. You will hurt her, you will disrespect the person you are using like a piece of meat to get back at your partner, and you - will - hurt - yourself. Knowing that you have sunk to that level, that you have done such a terrible thing to others and to yourself, will make you feel like shit. When you do it, you will lose respect for yourself because you will have defined yourself as a bad person. Just try it and see if I'm wrong. Some people are able to hide it pretty well. They cover it up, swallow it down...but it doesn't ever go away. Our past is our past, and nothing you will ever wish or pray or hope will EVER take back the hurts that you've inflicted on others. Hiding it on the inside only means you've got a rotten hollow spot there. Why do that to yourself on purpose??

You got hurt. Pretty bad, too. But that's life, so suck it up. If you can't suck it up and OWN your emotions perhaps you and Michelle might be better off parting ways for a while until you can sort it out. Maybe I sound like a real unfeeling bitch about this, but I don't believe in being permissive about someone using hurt and anger as an excuse to lash out at others. If your feelings are too big for you to handle and you feel you're going to hurt someone because of them, then you need to make a conscious decision to love that person enough to get away from her...until you can learn to separate your emotions from the decision making process.

I'm not sure how Michelle feels about all this. Is she truly sorry for what she did, or does she still feel you're making a big deal out of nothing? Because if it's the latter, she's going to need to some enlightenment. I just don't think that sticking your dick in another woman is going to help. At all. Time and talking are about the only cure I know of.

[lovinher]

To the OP. I should have included it earlier. You had every right to be pissed and hurt but your ONLY choice is to talk this through or you two are done. Your get even approach will create more problems than it solves and you will still feel betrayed. Are you suddenly going to trust her by fucking someone else? The only way to regain that trust is to keep talking with your wife, give her a chance and be patient.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by lovinher

To the OP. I should have included it earlier. You had every right to be pissed and hurt but your ONLY choice is to talk this through or you two are done. Your get even approach will create more problems than it solves and you will still feel betrayed. Are you suddenly going to trust her by fucking someone else? The only way to regain that trust is to keep talking with your wife, give her a chance and be patient.

Dito Exactly what I meant...just much more concise.

[djjwp]

Man does this post bring back memories…all bad.

IMHO, (this means you do not have to agree with it!) blame is not the answer or issue here but what are the issues include hurt felling, insecurities, and trust; all three will need maturity to correct on both his and her part.

I went through a divorce with the first wife because we were both immature and made bad decisions in the process of even thinking about working out the problems we had. You learn this as you grow older and hopefully wiser. We are now good friends 15 years after the divorce and agree we let anger and hurt feeling control us and trash what we had. STUPID!

My advice is this.
Let the anger go, it will eat you alive.
Sleep
Remember that you are both with each other by mutual consent and do not own each other.
Ask yourself if losing your relationship is really what you want, the path you seem to be on so far is dragging you in that direction! If you love her, you have to deal with your feelings.
Always remember you can never change anyone. They have to do it and want to in the first place. If you want to keep her, you need to want to change yourself and then do it.

[EvilMJ]

I just read the OP's last post and I was shocked.

Honestly how childish can you get. Yes you are hurt, yes she made a mistake, but going out and hurting her only compounds the problem and will ulitmately end your relationship.

Time to grow up and act responsible. Either find a way to forgive her and move in a positive manner, or end it.

I also don't think you should be swinging. Ever.

[Larry & Michell]

From now on I'll keep my personal written therapy in a journal in a safety deposit box...

After Michelle left yesterday, she called me about an hour later. A couple we had previously had a great time with called us and asked us if we wanted to hit the beach with them. Now the truth is, I did want to get back to a "good" place with Michelle. So I thought it would be a good idea to do some fun, normal stuff (normal for this board anyway). Something I've read concerning psychology, if you make an effort to act happy, even faking it, it actually affects how you feel.

Despite how what I wrote sounded, I would have never "used" another couple to get even. Its just that in the group sex environment of the club, its not hard to have a situation where one party could "get some" and the other not, without anyone's feelings being trampled on (and since Michelle didn't think that what she did was that terrible, it really shouldn't bother her the other way around, right?). And I had no intention of using the couple we were seeing during the day in any way for any payback. And I told Michelle I wasn't putting any restrictions on her; we like this other couple alot, and the truth is that all I really wanted is for my pain to go away; I didn't want to get anyone else involved in our problems. And since I really do want to get back to where Michelle and I were, that would include seeing this couple again. So anyway, we had an awesome day, which turned into an awesome night at the club with them and some other couples we knew (really awesome).

Michelle said a way to push aside bad feelings and memories is to replace them with good ones. We definitely started that yesterday. And I'm out of that terrible angry place I was. (And BTW, to whoever thought I might get violent, I get violent all the time, but its in a ring, with gloves, mouthpiece and rules (and then its usually me taking the beating ). I haven't hit anyone outside of that environment since high school, and there's zero chance of it now, not when we're talking strictly emotions). And to the comments of me wanting to control her, or the situation, I don't think its too much to ask that a rule like "no intercourse" be stuck to, or discussed before it happens. Because the truth is, with the right couple, I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem with full swap. With this other couple we were with, I enjoyed seeing her please him, and him her. I even get into it verbally (do that to him, touch her there). I feel pretty safe in saying that if they (other couple) wanted to go full swap, I'd be great with it. So its not just seeing her with another guy that killed me so much, it was the circumstances. She was way too wasted and out of control. There's something about that that made it so bad. But I do trust her. While she might not feel that what she did was that terrible, she obviously knows how I feel about it, and I know she won't let it happen again. I don't think thats trying to control someone. I think its respect for the feelings of the person who you love.

So anyway, to those of you following this saga, this is pretty much the end of the story. I am so glad this other couple called us yesterday. Honestly, I believe it was fate, or some positive karmic force (we've only seen them once before, its not like we get together every week), but it helped the healing process so much, its almost like it can't be coincidence (I'm a pretty spiritual guy in some regards). What happened still stings, but today, the main movie playing over and over in my head is last nights amazing, friendly, fun orgy, and I'm sure after more time passes, and more good times are had, the bad night will just feel like a movie that I saw a long time ago, didn't like, and don't even think about very often.

I know the way I expressed my very strong emotions really shocked some people. Considering that I really was trying to make it work, isn't it better that Michelle really knew what I was feeling? How can you get over emotions like that if you don't acknowledge them, and share them with the person you love (and a bunch of strangers on the internet). I needed her to know what I was feeling, as ugly as it was. How else could she ever help me to get over things, assuming she wanted to try, which, painful as it was for her, I'm so thankful she did. I told her that I didn't know if I could get past it, she might be putting herself through more pain for no reason. But I did tell her I would try, its what I wanted. I'm so glad she didn't just say "its your problem, deal with it, and call me after you do." If I could have pretended that it didn't bother me that much, it would have come out eventually, at a totally inappropriate time, where it made no sense and I could see her saying "Where the hell did that come from"? Now its truly over. It still stings some. But I won't ever be throwing it in her face. I did ask Michelle last night early on to just please be careful with my heart (I'm such a girly-man). I'll probably say that to her every time we play. Thats not so bad, is it?

So all's well that ends well. I'm really not a psycho. Michelle and I went home together last night, both of us happy being with each other. No one else got hurt or used, I think we even made a bunch of other people smile, and no animals were hurt in the making of this production.

[bigjoehd]

And to the comments of me wanting to control her, or the situation, I don't think its too much to ask that a rule like "no intercourse" be stuck to, or discussed before it happens.

Your right & there is nothing wrong with talking about what both of you would like to do & what each of you is dead set against but heat of the moment situations do not replicate the talks people have beforehand.

I did not mean that "you" were trying to control "her" but i did mean that you thought that you both could control the situation which you now see only works to a degree,what if the roles were reversed then add the alcohol you both drank & it could have been you on the rule breakling end of the evening without it being intentional.What both myself & my wife try to get people to understand about making this work is that you need to be able to roll with the punches & be able to accept things when they happen,there is no blueprint for all of the shit we do but the main goal is to have fun not to ruin your life or others lives.

Look,if your here then your no different than the rest of us & if your trying to find ways to make this lifestyle work better for you as a couple thats great but you have to realize that nothing goes as planned & you can expect more things to upset you along the way,either accept them & move on or stop seeing other people,its all part of the price of admission.