If he won't stay within their boundaries what makes us think he will stay within ours

[lizandtom]

Findtime, your thorough conveyance of your particular situation has us just about on the same page, which indiates respect and trust; thanks for clarifying. Regarding the original post though, I say let 'em meet face to face (all 4 eventually) to read the body language on whether the other couple has the necessary respect for them which will result in a comfortable, satisfying encounter. In the LS no means no, and if someone is uncomfortable, JUST SAY NO THANK YOU.

[findtime]

My issue would be trust, right off the bat. If the woman knows her husband is unreliable when it comes to limits, I, personally would spend the whole encounter wondering when he was going to cross the line.
Maybe I'm being paranoid but I don't think that's a great first impression.
Just my ever so humble opinion.

[Katie_and_Mark]

"I can see your trepidation in this matter. But I think you really are putting too much thought into it at this point. Meet her for lunch and get to know her in person. Just because you have lunch doesn't mean you have to have sex with them. If you aren't compatible, you aren't compatible. Period. No hard feelings."

I so agree with this point. We read the board a lot but rarely post, this one made me do it. If you are not careful you will over-analyze everything that is said or wrote in every chat and every conversation. It is the idea of a meet to really see the character and tone of a person and their intentions. My wife and I have rules and that is to have fun and honor their rules. We never break anyone else's rules. But we read several couples on here that we wonder if they have forgot what swinging is. WE want to be with compatibale people as much as the next couple and we do. But once you establish compatibility outside the bedroom than what is the hold up. We are not pushy and never break their rules but the reason we dont worry about someone breaking ours is because the only one we have is to have fun. If my wife wants to take it anally than that is her decision. Kissing is a must for us so without it whats the point. and I guess we just dont get the whole soft swap thing. We can stay home and watch porn if thats what it is all about. WE swing same room different room but the partner that we are with is the one of our focus not our spouse to see if a rule is being broke.
If a man does something to my wife that she said no to he will be the one displeased when she gets up and leaves, or racks him so hard that he will sing soprano for a month. I never go there with a women, I ask before anything during the first time and once we know a couple than the trust is there and they ask me to do it again. We swing with those that want to have fun

"I certainly didn't mind and appreciated the leeway it allowed me to pursue some things on my own, and yes we do have rules but they are always up for renegotiation as we BOTH deem fit. By testing the rules made by the slowest of us, it has strengthened our relationship and put to rest the WORRIES of jealousy. We reassure each other that we are still #1 on each others list, and will be. Personally I don't know how intimate relations could possibly start without some sort of kissing first, but that's just me. Of course everybody has to be comfortable, and has to respect each other, but to condemn this couple because of something going on between them (as long as they are a secure couple within themselves) is a harsh decision not based upon the actual people you meet, and there may be more to it than that. My opinion, as rambled as it is, and valid. (maybe not correct, but valid)."

I loved this reply!!!! We tested and agreed that the only rule we needed was to have fun.
There is so much trust in our relationship that we can trust our partner to make good decisions for themselves without us looking over our shoulder to see if their breaking a "rule" that takes away from the swinging experience for us. We work really hard and if we are going to go to all the work to build relationships with people and we do, than we are going to trust them and ask that hey trust us. IMHO there are too many out there that get cold feet over the smallest things. We have found repeatedly that others rules are so often broken (By themselves & This includes the use of condoms)in the heat of the moment that it really seems like a show to go through the whole list in the first place. If there is a connection before you ever get to the bedroom which is vital for us to ever get there than why break the built up trust with a set of rules that is just going to leave everyone asking "what if" and "what did" happen kind of questions. Try the "have fun" rule and you will discover that swinging can really be swinging again or for the first time. Again I know many will disagree but the bottom line for us is that we trust and its our own bodies and if it feels good than let them do it to you. Trust me when I say we have seen times when the rules have been tossed aside by the couples we are with at their decision,(Remember that our only rule is to have fun and honor thiers) and the people found out what swinging was really about. If you say to me than what is sacred to your mate if you share everything with your swinging partners, i.e.,kissing,penetration, bareback, oral to climax (Swallowing) or whatever else you think of I have a very simple answer. My heart, my Love, a wonderful marriage and a ride back to "OUR PLACE" thanks for letting me vent!!! Put the fun back in swinging!!!! PLEASE

[dreamer]

Katie and Mark, I don't mean this to sound bad, or offensive, and I respect the boundaries you've set for your relationship, but in this day and age how do you get to the point of (condom optional or open mouth kissing) The only boundary is what is fun? I know you must be informed about how your life can be ruined by stds. Mabey I'm just to informed, and ignorance is truly bliss. How do you get to that point? Again please don't take offence. I'm just trying to understand.

[findtime]

I am offended by three particular messages in your statement, Katie and Mark.

One:

But we read several couples on here that we wonder if they have forgot what swinging is

I think it's presumptuous to assume that if swinging isn't done the way that you think it should be, then it's not being done right.. Please define for us....What exactly is swinging? Because there are plenty of us out there who are thoroughly enjoying what we're doing and are under the impression that we are "swinging".

Two:

....and the people found out what swinging was really about.

Three:

Put the fun back in swinging!!!! PLEASE

Your post implies that other's relationships are somehow less trusting or loving because they have rules, or that they are missing the boat because their perception of swinging doesn't mesh with yours.

Swinging is done for the pleasure of the couple. Whatever that means to each. I resent the implication that, because one has comfort zones, they are somehow ruining everyone else's fun.

I think that's a crappy message to send to newbies.

The original poster expressed a concern that this other woman's husband would not respect her boundaries based on the woman's own statement that her husband doesn't even respect their boundaries. Obviously that's important to her. The issue was not whether or not she should have boundaries.

I think it's great that you two have a wonderful relationship and enjoy the full spectrum of what swinging has to offer. I also appreciate the fact that you think it's important to respect the other couple's rules (even if you don't personally think they should have any). Please just remember everyone is different.


*edited because I'm trying to word this in a way that conveys the fact that I'm irritated without being confrontational "

[borrowlend]

Hi,

This is our second post, first reply. I am glad that you are paying attention to possible red flags. It is possible that she was just kidding. If they know how important your boundreis are then I don't see why they would mess up the chances of meeting you guys. The best way to tell is just ask and meet them watch thier body language. We met a couple once (didn't work out) and every time he said he loved her he would look in the oppisite direction and roll his eyes. We quickly saw that as a red flag and was honest with them later.

We have the same rule.....no MF kissing. The couples we play with have no problem. I asked my husband if it would be ok for that to be a rule b/c for me is assocated more with love. Yes, I am one of those....lol. He has been happy and satisfied without it. The other night it actually brought out the wild woman in me. I found myself nibbling on the M's arm and he loved it!

[Katie_and_Mark]

Well here goes. Let me first offer apologies to anyone I offended it was not my intent when I posted to do that. I believe that this board is about sharing open communication and opinions with information to others that want it. But keep in mind that many will disagree with an opinion, and I figured that to be the case when I posted. I am ok with different opinions but I did not want to offend. Peronally, I want people to be honest with me cause you would have to pack a lunch and dinner if you ever wanted to offend me. I just dont like going there.

findtime; I have seen your posts and you have never offended me and I truly apologize that I did you but it is not going to change what I said. Maybe I can clarify so its not so offensive.

I understand that what I posted could come across in a manner that we dont care about others, and that what they are doing is not fun. That is not what I meant to imply. I simply wanted to portray that when we over analyze a comment in a conversation or in a chat the alarms that go off are not always justified. If we are looking with a magnifying glass then we may miss out on ever having an experience wth any couple. I agree that she needs to have the couple respect her boundaries but how is she ever going to know if that is possible with out giving the meeting a chance. As far as the closer examination is concerned, I would fail anyone's closest scrutiny just as I suspect many others would mine. But that level of examination is not always required when looking for couples to swing with. I don't believe that to be careless, I believe it to being polite and respectful of others private lives. We have levels of expectations and they have to be met before we swing but we usually can get past a comment to verify that it is their intent or if it was a comedic interlude.
Let me help everyone with my definition of Swinging so that you may understand my comments about putting the "fun back in Swinging" This alone may clear up much of what I seemed to offend with, in my original post.
OUR DEFINITION: The process of swinging is to meet people to build relationships to the place of feeling comfortable enough to exchange partners in a sexual environment.
With that being said I need to state that everyones sexual environment may be different. Just as I suspect that many of you will differ with me about my basic definition.
But since that is our definition then that is why we say that we believe that many have forgotten what swinging is all about. Its about Sex. Yes the friendships are great and the relationships that can be developed are unique. But the truth be known I really don't care to have sex with some of my closest friends nor them with us I suspect. It's not that kind of relationship. So why is a percentage of people we have met in the lifestyle and online saying its all about the friendships, the bbq's in the backyard, and the mixing of families together. I have people that I do that with already and while I am not opposed to doing that with those that we swing with. It is not my motive when I meet someone online or in person to talk about swinging with. We have found that it is what people want to hear. Again I am speaking in very general terms. It is just hard for us to understand in an environment that is about sex why people have such a hard time admitting that they are looking for sex.

"But we read several couples on here that we wonder if they have forgot what swinging is"

Yes I said this and it was about the fact that we think swinging is about sex, and I really wonder what others think it is about if not sex. Although that may be a subject for another thread. We think that because of what I said earlier.

"Your post implies that other's relationships are somehow less trusting or loving because they have rules, or that they are missing the boat because their perception of swinging doesn't mesh with yours.

Swinging is done for the pleasure of the couple. Whatever that means to each. I resent the implication that, because one has comfort zones, they are somehow ruining everyone else's fun.

I think that's a crappy message to send to newbies."



findtime; if I implied that your values and "rules" are not important you might have misread what I wrote. Notice that I said our rules is to follow their rules. How does that imply that since they have rules they do not know what swinging is about or that it is not important to us. We truly respect and honor anyones rules. But what we have seen is the constant relaxing of the rules when in the heat of the moment and the position I'm taking is that people are realizing that their own rules take away from their own fun. If a couple can keep their rules and have fun more power to them. We think that is great. We do not think less of them or not want to play with them less because of it. But keeping with the original post she was concerned that since the man couldn't seem to keep their boundaries he wouldnt keep theirs. Unless she talks with them and defines it, how is she ever going to find out. You said the same thing I did that it is about the pleasure of the couple. Its great that you said that!!!!! I agree 100%. I simply said that for us it comes easier when we decide that it is ok to pleasure ourselves or allow ourselves to be pleasured by whatever we want without any prerequisites by ourselves for each other. If they were needed we would have them.

As far as the message Im sending to newbies,
Let me not beat around the bush, because my first message apparently left much to be read in. I am saying be careful not to read into everything you see and hear about swinging. It is about SEX all the other stuff that people do to get there is fine if that's what it takes for them. No DISRESPECT FOR IT WHATSOEVER!!!!!! But if you think for a second that when you decide to get naked with another couple in a sexual environment, that because you may be friends or have a great relationship outside of there, that it does not have any risk you will be sorely diasappointed. When you swing you are taking your marriage and putting it out there to exposure to others. Hopefully it will be for you what it has been for us, FUN!!!!!!!

Last but not least
dreamer; of course I am not offended thank you for your concern. you said

"The only boundary is what is fun? I know you must be informed about how your life can be ruined by stds. Mabey I'm just to informed, and ignorance is truly bliss. How do you get to that point? Again please don't take offense. I'm just trying to understand."
My reply to that is we have done research and are very informed. (Without getting into another subject for another thread)
Matter of factly that is why we can be relaxed about the use of condoms. First of all we do use condoms, but it is not a rule it is a choice. If one of us want to go without in the middle of an encounter without breaking the other couples rules then we can, without "Asking Permission " or "violating a trust" Second of all contrary to what the popular opinion about std's are from the vast majority of information put out by the CDC (Center for Disease Control) they are not prevented from the use of condoms. Every page I have read on any of their websites and their flyers concerning Stds (Of which I have read many) say that condoms help to reduce the "spread of infectious diseases" but the asterisk at the bottom of the page always says they will not prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. There is more info but this is not the thread for them.

I go back to what I said earlier. when you swing you are at risk. What price are you willing to put on your fun!!!!! Swinging is a form of fun that can be costly at many levels. Some at an emotional level that has cost families their lives marriages and children. If anything this is the message I would put out there. Make your decisionss based on the amount of risk you are willing to take for the amount of fun you want to have.

Again thanks for letting me vent

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by WesternSwing

I can see your trepidation in this matter. But I think you really are putting too much thought into it at this point. Meet her for lunch and get to know her in person. Just because you have lunch doesn't mean you have to have sex with them. If you aren't compatible, you aren't compatible. Period. No hard feelings.

We have met some really good people online. We chatted via email or instant messenger for a week or two, then met for drinks or dinner and took it from there. There are more people we haven't "clicked" with than those we have, but they are still good acquaintances that we seek out at parties to hang with.

So don't read too much into her comment until you actually get to know her (and him). Don't over-analyze it. You are taking something that is supposed to be fun and making it into work.

Mr. WS

This is sorta what I was thinking. I would be surprised by it but if they seem like otherwise nice folks, why not meet?

Like a photo, a phone call can be misleading. Give them the benefit. If you are right, then your early detection system is working. If you aren't then maybe you need to give the others more of a chance.

On the other foot; I suspect that you and your hubby don't have a lot of time to divide among couples and if that is the case then you are wise to be selective. Just try not to jump to conclusions.

Male D

[findtime]

Katie and Mark, I would have to agree with your definition of swinging.
I think people choose to have rules to differentiate between sexual acts and what are perceived as acts of love or intimacy (within their particular relationship). For example, that's how we feel about kissing. I understand that not everyone equates kissing with love and that's fine. I wouldn't ever try to impose my beliefs on anyone and think no less of those who feel differently.

While I can explain and justify my original issues with a series of quotes, I can't really argue with any of the clarifications made in your subsequent post...So I won't.

Except just this one.....The original one. I can't see a greater red flag than someone's own wife stating that he is unreliable. If it was a "feeling" she got or an ambiguous comment made that could be interpreted different ways.....just something a little less blatant, I would have to agree with you regarding the arranging of a meeting to see what happens. This was too much of a telling remark, in my opinion. I would be worried the whole time I was playing with him that he was going to push past my limits. I'd be anticipating it regardless of his assurances. The statement seemed too off the cuff to be contrived. I'm convinced there's truth to it.
That makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to speak for the original poster but I get the impression that it makes her uncomfortable too.

[DBL D]

You know what? She may just be saying that they set guidelines and called them boundaries when talking with you, and some folks equate that with rules. I see nothing wrong with allowing your partner to do something they said they wouldn't do (or didn't think they would do). If the right time for it comes up then sometimes it happens. Do you have to stop and have a Pow-Wow?

Just because she said that he goes outside their boundaries doesn't mean he would go outside his play partners boundaries.

My dear lady...YOU are the ONE who helps set the boundaries.

I probably didn't say that the best way I could...but I'm tired and it's been a helluva week. Doesn't mean I haven't thought about this topic.

Just another thought...

Male D