Broken Full Swap Boundaries

[fun_pairTX]

Wow BuNNy,

If I were you I would immediately stop swinging and not reuurn until all the other issues are settled. There appear to be a bunch including lack of respect and hostility. Our prayers are with you both.

[BuNNyinmi]

Question my marriage is just what I am doing at this point when we talk on the phone and he gives me another reason for saturday happening the way it did because he finally felt that it was about him. I have not appreciated him being patient for 2 1/2 yrs. Stepping away from the lifestyle is not an option at this point because I pay the price with becoming only his fuck partner and nothing more. The case for that is because this lifetsyle has consumed his side of the relationship and he has made our relationship all about it for him. He says it is always been what I want and nothing else. I suppose it has been because all I ever wanted was to be comfortable with my marriage and feel like I was still wanted in my marriage. But I felt so much like I did not measure up enough for him.

Thank you for all you responces and support.

[EvilMJ]

Originally Posted by BuNNyinmi

. I have not appreciated him being patient for 2 1/2 yrs. Stepping away from the lifestyle is not an option at this point because I pay the price with becoming only his fuck partner and nothing more. The case for that is because this lifetsyle has consumed his side of the relationship and he has made our relationship all about it for him.

Thank you for all you responces and support.

WOW!! I think you have no choice but to step away from swinging and get some counseling. This is not a stable marriage and swinging is only going to continue to make things worse. If he was a true husband to you there would some love and support, but I don't see this here.

[JustAskJulie]

His reason for this is because he says he wanted to do it the way he wanted to do it.

To me this line says that he had no intention of keeping the rules.

I assume you both agreed to the rules ahead of time and no issues were expressed, yet the above statement says to me that he didn't like the rules from the start and was simply looking for a way to get around them. His EXCUSE that he was drunk, is just that, an excuse... and a convienent one at that.

[jcbicouple]

Dito to all of the above.
Your rules were very much like other people have (right down to not kissing) not unreasonable for a couple to have all of the same rules you did.
Your hubby disregarded your rules (Which means he disrespected and hurt you), and it sounds like he needs to do some serious soul searching. He doesn't have a clue what swinging is really about....It's not about just getting off with someone other than your partner: It about still being together (even seperate room couples are still thoughtful of one another) and enjoying sexual pleasures while others are involved.
You definitely need to stop swinging, and work on your relationship.

[CB_n_Red]

This is an interesting thread, but I'm afraid I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here for a moment.

In the initial message Bunnyinmi said that "I ended up being in a seperate room then my husband".

My question is how did this happen? Presumably one of you left the room you were both in. I suspect it might be significant for the rest of the discussion if we knew which one left the room with a third party. If it was the husband then I would have no disagreement with all the subsequent comments in the thread, though I am somewhat surprised (if this is the case) that Bunnyinmi didn't stop him there and then. If however it was Bunnyinmi, then did the husband perhaps assume that Bunnyinmi was okay with the rules being broken?

I'm not trying to belittle Bunnyinmi's feelings about the broken rules, but experience does suggest that most stories have at least two sides and it could be that there is something here that we are missing. But please, do correct me if I am wrong on this!

As everyone else has said, you two need to sit down together and do some serious talking before even thinking about playing again.

CB

[BuNNyinmi]

Ok I am going to try and answer all the questions here. Sorry this is long I have alot of hurt and mistrust in this relationship now. I will tell you now that this will not be talked about anymore because he feels I dwell on things to much.

I got another reason from him last night and that was because he finally felt like it was about him. (This is explained further down why he felt that way.) My questions to that is: could he still had that feeling and been with me also? No he could not have been. He gets me when HE wants it so there for it does not count.

I ended up in a different room because the couples house we were at the bathroom is right next to there spare bedroom and the other husband stopped me on the way out. Saying to me that I probably did not want to see what was going on and pulled me into the other room. Yes I am to blame also for letting this happen. I did try to go back into the same room and my husband did see this happening. If there were any of the rules he would have thought I was ok with breaking it would have only been the same room one.

The whole story for you is this. We started this lifestyle with the idea of me exploring my bi side. That was the fantasy he wanted to see and I was more then happy to do it because I have always been interested in being with woman. Come to find out now that was not the only thing he was thinking of 2 1/2 yrs ago when we started this. Those are his words not mine. We both agreed from day one to take things slow so we both would be comfortable with things progressing. However, I was the slower of the two and his patience has run out and ran out a long time ago. He tells me I did not include him in thing. I was under the understanding that this was for me to explore and if things changed then we would talk about it. The only talking that would ever happen was him stating what other people are doing. And I understand that it is easier for most of the men in this lifestyle to move along faster. My question for all you men that have a wife that has moved along to the full swap is this. Did things change in your relationship as you were exploring and working on the different levels of swinging such as how your personal relationship was taken care of as a priorty? Let me go ahead and answer this question for my relationship and that is no the personal relationship was not the priorty here. Most of the things I got in the first 5 months of our relationship started being taken away as we went further and further down the road. (Attention, affection, support, being able to express feelings and having them accepted, being able to express the things you want to do.) Stupid me I should have spoke up along time ago and stopped what was happening. Then maybe coming out of the lifestyle for a break or whatever would not be so complicated. What I mean by that is that everything is taken away we do take a break. I had to forced a break earlier in the summer because of some health reasons and it was the worst time of my life. He was so against the break that we hardly even said one word to each other. He says it is because he was trying to adjust to me taking away something that was sexy about me. There is way more to me then this lifestyle but I feel he does not see that anymore.

As far as the counseling that will never happen. I have asked about it in the past and he states it is just not for him.

[CB_n_Red]

Thanks for clarifying things!

It seems to that in spite of the talking you both did, there was a lack of real communication in several key areas, most particularly as regards comfort levels and the speed of progress. I feel that your husband was very wrong to push you as fast as he obviously did and the fact that he did suggests that he probably had other motives all along. My apologies for speaking bluntly, but to this plain-speaking Yorkshireman that's how it looks. Two and a half years isn't a long time!

A couple of interesting points there:

"He gets me when HE wants it so there for it does not count."

What!? Now that is a strange one. I don't get Red "when I want", but rather when we both want. I thought that was an important part of any relationship! As for it not counting..... Where is this guy coming from? I'm thoroughly gobsmacked at that one!

He also well out of order in assuming what other couples in the lifestyle do. In our case we talked about swinging on and off for five years before doing anything and neither of us pushed the other. Only once both of us were completely comfortable with what we both wanted to do did we start to turn fantasy into reality. Having said that, I know of others who have reached that point much more quickly and yet others who probably never will. There is no fixed pattern of progress!

By no means is it true that men in the lifestyle necessarily move faster either. Quite recently on the Board we have seen women posting about their husbands' reluctance to progress faster. Possibilty more men than women are comfortable making speedier progress but I do think it's important not to generalise. It's still more important for you that your husband doesn't generalise!

Considering the rest of your last paragraph, it seems to me that there were issues in your relationship before ever swinging came into the picture. It appears that your husband has been too controlling for your comfort (it might suit some, but clearly didn't suit you). Given those issues it may well have been inadvisable to even contemplate swinging in the first place, though I realise it's a bit late to shut that barn door.

In the case of Red and I, our relationship was always strong (married 25 years, together nearly 30 years) and discussing the prospect of swinging made it even stronger. It enabled us to discuss our feelings in greater depth than ever before. On top of that, since we started actually playing our level of communication has got even better. I probably feel closer to my wife now than I ever have done and I know she feels the same.

Finally, there is more to any and all of us than the lifestyle! I do feel that proper professional counselling is your only way forwards as a couple. If your husband can't see that then he probably has his too deeply buried in the sand for his own good.

Okay, enough of my waffle. I could probably waffle for England given half a chance

Good luck! I fear you will need it.

CB

[Dave_kat]

Kat and I went through a very rough period in our marriage when she started exploring her bisexual side. This was after we had been full swing for years, and I'm out in the field for a 3 week exercise and when I come home on a shower run, she's telling me all about this girl she met and some of her antics.

This girl that she had met was a lesbian, and had 0 interest in men. I had problems with that because when we talked about things, we had rules about both of us being there, both of us involved, that sort of thing.

I deployed to Kosovo for 6 months with this hanging between us. We had never resolved the issue to decide what exactly we were going to do about things, and things went so far that while I was gone, she went and got divorce paperwork.

I came back from 7 months in Kosovo and discovered, much to my dismay, that she had moved a different girl into our house, another lesbian (The first one turned out to actually be ok with my being present and helping me pleasure Kat), but this one was so scared of me physically yet willing to stand up and seriously push those buttons, that kat literally would have to pick nights. One night with me, one night with her. That divorce paperwork was very close to getting filed (I found this out several months later).

Then all of a sudden, I decide to go get drunk, and go and talk to a female friend of mine. Just talk. The girl came over and immediately laid into kat for what she was doing. While kat wouldn't listen to me, she listened to this girl explaining that while I had no problems with her being bisexual, it added whole dimensions to our play. I wasn't there for the whole conversation, but I know a lot was said.

What the whole thing boils down to is the fact that Kat and I were still in love, kat was having problems with her own sexuality and explorations, and neither of us were communicating effectively. Kat and I had been through so much, and she never could picture herself without me, even though she might be so angry at something I might do.

My whole point of this is that I felt completely left out of things while she started exploring and continued on. You say straight out that that you had the understanding that this was for you to explore. I understand that whatever limits you have with other women are your own, and totally support you in saying that if you did not feel comfortable doing something with another person, noone should even think about trying to force you. But at the same time, I say this. You are married, a couple. Anything you do with someone else has a direct effect upon your relationship. You exploring your bisexuality with another woman while he is present or not, and leaving him out of the situation, you're telling him that you can have yours and your others while he cannot enjoy those other things.

It's all good to explore sexuality. But as a couple, you should have been doing it together. Him watching while you have the fun will instantly cause a lot of frustration. It takes A LOT of experience for a man to be able to watch his wife have fun, be aroused, keep himself under control, and wait to participate until after the whole thing, especially with his wife there doing this. While seemingly sexist, think about watching your husband play while you were simply watching and not able to do something. Sharing in your experience with each other is what marriage is about, and something your rules seem to specify from the beginning (same room, keep kissing to each other, finish with each other, all of that).

You both need to stop and evaluate things. If there are serious problems, stop and listen to each other. Get a friend involved. Someone who knows you both and can play devil's advocate (it's a form of counseling that he might be willing to do). Figure out why you are together in the first place. Why you love each other. What you get from swinging, and what your motivations are. Decide from there what you really need.

By the way, those divorce papers I mentioned? We keep them in a file with all of our other important papers, and pull them out every so often to remind us of just how close we came.

[fun_pairTX]

Originally Posted by BuNNyinmi

Stepping away from the lifestyle is not an option at this point because I pay the price with becoming only his fuck partner and nothing more.

BuNNy,

I'm sorry to hear that. What you are saying is that the only redeeming part of swinging at this point is that you get to spread him around and you don't get stuck with him yourself. If this is truly the way things are then you need a lawyer, not a counselor. It is too bad you aren't in Texas, it sounds as if he needs a good ass whoopin.

[BuNNyinmi]

actually what i am saying by us not being to leave the lifestyle is that we become roommates. which means he hates me because then i have taken away the sexist thing in our relationship. when we took a break over the summer there was no relationship. he took away all affection, attention and everything that a relationship is. I tried so hard to get these things during this time but i damaged our relationship by needing the break and i believe he still has not forgiven me for it. i do not want to spread him around that is actually one of my biggest hang ups that he will not accept about me. what we have had when our relationship was good is the most wonderful thing and i do not want to share him or that with others.

what it boils down to for the most part is that he feels he has been patient enough for 2 1/2 yrs and i should be moving forward more and faster because he feels he has given me things i have asked to get back. he has given them on his terms and when he wants to give them. we are only human and all need things in different ways. i have tried and tried to be very direct in the way i need the things i have asked for with nothing. What i have asked for are things like: attention, affection, feeling important, sex earlier in the evening, being able to say things i would like to do without him getting mad at me because it is something he does not want to do, some say in the lifestyle who we meet.

yes i believe there has been a problem that he would like the control to be all on his part in this relationship but that will not happen. i have let it happen and now i am kisking myself in the ass for it. i was not raised to be walked all over and that is just what i have let happen. now i am trying to get some self respect, self esteem and control back. since i being in this lifestyle my self esteem has dropped and that is the worst thing for any person i believe. and worst of all not feeling wanted by my own husband unless it has something to do with this lifestyle does not help at all.

i do thank all of you for reading my very long responces and giving me your honest opinions on all of this. it is very much appreciated.

[EvilMJ]

My dear, the problem is not the lifestyle. The problem is that your marriage is esstentially over. He has made it clear that he does not love you as a husband should love his wife.

It is clear that he is not going to seek counselling, he is not willing to do his part to make you marriage work. All that is left is to seek a lawyer.

Honestly if your husband hates you and withdrawls everything from you when he is not allowed to participate in swinging activities, then it is time to call it quits. You deserve better than that BS!

[CB_n_Red]

Got to agree with EvilMJ.

I had started to put together another reply, but that it what it boiled down to.

It will be a hard decision to make, but I can see no alternative for you. I just ran the whole thing past Red (just joined me in my workshop) and she agrees.

Good luck anyway!

CB

[JustAskJulie]

BuNNy is sounds to me like the damage is already done to your relationship, and was probably done before you guys ever stepped into swinging.... which only serves to intensify just how badly swinging can go for a couple who already has communication issues (as you guys apparantly do). That said, the idea that you can't step away from swinging for fear of how much more it might hurt your relationship is a mute point.

Your husband isn't talking to you now, he has no concern for your feelings (thus his not wanting to hear you talk about the situation). From the sounds of it you guys haven't been talking at all the whole time and that's exactly how things were allowed to progress this far and get this out of hand.

So the question for you is, your marriage is already falling apart: do you want to save it? Or do you want to help it continue to deteriorate?

[BuNNyinmi]

the answer is i want to save it more then anything. i know now there is no chance of it being saved if all he sees in things is the lifestyle. i on the other hand i remember to this day what it was about him that i feel in love with even with it being taken away. i know that it can come back but only if he is willing to remember what it was that made him fall in love with me.

what makes this even worse is the fact that we have only been together just short of 3 yrs and married 1 yr, 2 months. i believe that short time together has been part of my problem of not wanting to move forward to fast as to not damage our what used to be a wonderful relationship.

i know i have said a lot of bad things about him. he can however be and wonderful man if he wants to. it is however only if he wants to and is willing to. right now it is not how he wants to be.

i believe you all are correct that my marriage is headed straight for a divorce. even though that is the last thing i want. i am not someone to give up easy on this stuff. i thought i had found the love of my life but that is proving to be incorrect the more we got involved in the lifestyle.

oh we talked but it was all about what he wanted and what he thought about things. all my ideas and thoughts i was made to feel were incorrect.