We say TALK, TALK, TALK but... how much TALK is enouhg TALKing?

[sereneiders]

After reading Tempest419 post None for me, thanks!, I realized there is a usual advice we provide in here to newcomers whose meaning we give for granted where it may not be the case, as I believe it happend to Tempest from her own words.

Tempest came to this site asking for advice and they followed our advices, even this one about TALK, TALK, and TALK (the 3T from now and on), but anyway they had a communication problem that it seems they underestimated while doing the 3T, and at some point, I believe we were the ones who failed to them with and inaccurate advice, and that we may be failing in other cases too.

So, the purpose of this thread is to look for ways to help eachother help other people when asking for advice, on how to make these points whose meaning we give for granted.

So here I take the first shoot with our "3T" advice. Tempest said she made a mistake when starting negotiating against her guts, that she shouldn't negotiate at all (and I said, because she knew she'll lose the bargain). This reminds me of something that may be perceived as unrelated with swinging, but if you read on you'd find relevant.

It's a well known fact that software developers are unable to accomplish the scheduled goals for their projects. Among the researches to find out the causes for this, there was one survey about the developers time estimations for their work made BEFORE they negotiated the actual schedule, and that survey showed they were pretty accurate at first, but that later on the schedule for the vey same projects had allways the times shortened, so they failed to accomplish with the "official" shcedule when their first estimation was the right one. Trying to explain this they found out there were "hidden" psychological aspects involved: the developers trends to be obsesive and often introverted people, while their managers are naturally extroverted people who had developed negotiation skills, so the manager meets the developers and tells them "folks, we have a customer who needs this product running in 6 months, make a survey about the requirements and bring me the project schedule". The developers finds out it will take a year to finish the product, they may even want to avoid facing the manager with such an schedule and start stressing it to shorten it 3 months, then they meet the manager who claims that the project should be doable in 6 months, and here the negotiation skills came to save the day... for the manager, and the developers ends giving up and signing up an schedule that later on they wont be able to accomplish and would be blamed for.

In any marriage there are one who have better negotiation skills, and I suspect this one is who bring up to swinging subject most of the times. Moreover, this one knows his/her spouse weak points as to take adventage of them while negotiating. In this scenario, the 3T advice could be worthless, because it would be compelling the weaker spouse to fall in the jaws of the skilled one, who would find out the 3T provides him/her a tool to get his/her way.

Besides, there exist an open question: how much talk would be enough talking as to ensure all the bases had been covered. If there are issues no one want to talk about because of fears, and all the talking is being slipping them, the 3T may end up in a vicious circle until someone gives up from being tired of it.

So, I tought of a game deviced to tell when people still didn't 3T enough. To play it, you need pen and paper:

Each spouse takes two sheets of paper. One of them would be the PRIVATE sheet, where each one will make two lists, with these things each of them think swinging will be ok and "profitable" for them (enhancing the marriage, fulfill personal fantasies, and so), and the other list with the odds they fear to find out from swinging (damage for the marriage, for the personal feelings, and so). Each list should have at least 3 items, and at most 10, and the items shoud be given a priority order of importance. The other sheet would be the PUBLIC one, where they will make two similar lists, but this one with the items each one gess the other wrote in his/her PRIVATE list.

Then, they start a first round of 3T by reading to each other their PUBLIC lists, thus, exposing the degree of understanding they have about the other one, and also the expectations about the other toguts, feelings and fears. During this 3T round, surelly they would argue the things written in the lists, and they would casually talk about things they wrote in their PRIVATE lists, in between nes thing that could bring to surface that didn't were there at all, and without making the list explicit, i.e., what was written and in which order.

Once both gess they reached a common ground or a dead end, they take two new sheets to make two PRIVATE and two PUBLIC lists. It may happen that after the talking there could be new items in the list, some others may change the order of importance, and even other may dissapear.

They start a new round of 3T. The game goes on, making lists and then talking to compare each one PUBLIC lists whit the PRIVATE content the other knows, and the game ends when they both agree the other's PUBLIC lists is close enough to the PRIVATE ones.

At this point both would have been forcef to pay attention to the other's needs, feelings, fears and toughts, and to be aware of these things in order to gess in their PUBLIC lists the contents of the PRIVATE ones.

And here it commes the triky part. Had these guys talked enough? No... at all, they were just warming up and scratchig the surface, but what we could say is that, at least now they know what are they talking about, that when one of them say "apple" they both would know one is thinking of a red one and the other about a green one.

So, just then they should take of advice and start doing the meant 3T, from the scratch, and giving the common grounds we give for granted when advicing to 3T.

What do you think?

[Dave_kat]

I have to agree, that this would be one possible tool to use. But I would certainly point out that not all couples communicate the same methods.

My wife and I went to several communication classes early in our marriage. One tool that we have found incredibly useful is for one spouse to say something suggest something, and then to say "I need time to think." That is a key word to table the conversation until the one who needs time to think has the time.

The rules are though, that when those keywords are said, the subject is dropped. The one who said them brings it back up when they are ready.

That will slow down communication and not allow someone to say something in a hasty manner, based on a purely emotional response. At any time, any one can use the same code and the subject stops.

When you come back to it later, if you've stopped in the middle, the one bringing it back up is responsible for summarizing the discussion to date. Some peopl might think they have a bad memory, but we've found that you can remember amazing amounts of details on one of these subjects if it is something that really requires you to go there and to use it.

Granted, this method can take weeks potentially. But what are 4 weeks in a marriage that you hope will last 50 to 60 years, or even more?

As an example, we used this method when we first discussed swinging between ourselves. Kat brought it up, and I put it on hold. I then did a lot of research on the subject, and was able to come back with an informed response which was quite different from my immediate emotional response.

As far as negotiation, I found out during my research (as with the same method) that all of the sites I discovered all told beginners that there should be none. Go at the pace of the slower person. Limit it to what you both feel as is comfortable, and both should have the ability to say stop and that ends things.

I also read Tempest's post, and had my initial thoughts to argue what I saw were mistakes that the advise they got and didn't follow, or followed what I'd think to be incorrectly. Somehow there was negotiation, somehow they didn't take things slowly enough, they didn't deal with their jealousy issues together, all of those things that we on this board advise people to do. We advise them to make some rules, so they negotiated rules. what he wanted what she wanted, and then they tried to come to a middle ground, instead of saying ok.. this is off the list, this is off the list, this is what we have left we are willing to do.

And if something starts out as being ok, but turns out to be uncomfortable, we would say stop right there and that's then against the rules.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of us started out along those lines of rules making, and as we've matured in the lifestyle, we have eliminated rules as we found that they really didn't make sense, or that we were more comfortable with things as we moved along.

For most of us, we certainly disagreed with the power issues, as well we should. Still, I post here because I do believe we should have somewhere where we consolidate our advise to new couples about communication. Skills we specifically have that might be useful to others. Telling someone to talk might just not be enough, suggesting methods to use is the next logical step.

[lovedoctor]

Sereineders -

First of all, let me say that I enjoy reading your posts. I find your unique mix of thoughtfulness, humor and syntax to be completely refreshing! But, dude! Sometimes you 3T SO much that it wears me out (I know, I'm weak! )

I love your idea, and I think it is a good one. It will work with various effectiveness depending on the couple ~of course, but for people who have difficulty with verbal communication skills it will facilitate a great deal of discussion that would otherwise probably go unsaid as a couple, even if it is thought of by the individual. No matter how people communicate, this is a necessary part of any relationship, especially so when it involves sex, emotions and the like. Our counselor had us make lists regarding various subjects through the time we spent with him, and it really did open up our eyes to what the other person is thinking and feeling. The big revelation is that hey, we really can't read each other's minds!!

So I think your advice will help people on this board, newbies or long-timers. Thanks!

[sexyshelby]

Great advice above. I like both of these suggestions a lot.

My mom always told me to make lists of the advantages and disadvantages of my different options. Sometimes it helps to see things on paper, rather than talking about it. Couples could each make a list of advantages and disadvantages of swinging (or why they want to and why they don't). Then compare lists. Cross off the ones that are the same on each person's list and then weigh the ones that are different. And of course discuss them all.
I dont know if this would be helpful, but Sereneiders' game made me think of this.

~~~~~

Since my boyfriend and I live apart, we have to rely on instant messages and emails for communication. Some feel this is impersonal, but I think its a great way to communicate, especially difficult issues. It helps to be able to think about things before you respond to an email. It allows you time to cool off, do some research or just think. And there have been many times that I rewrite something a number of times before i send it, either by IM or email. So I think these methods could benefit some couples, at least some times.

Then again, this is still talking, it's just not face-to-face. While there are some conversations that I would rather have in-person, there is some comfort and safety in communicating electronically.

~SS

[kingdruman]

ii haf an approach to life

be there

do that

2 can b bliss

and should b

yet....as life b

a forest b better than 2 palm tree


or am i stalkin the wild onion?

i b 45 year as the gregorian calendar present...

as my culture do

i could if yall would be amused....list several calendar thingys

to date

we would all be obfudicated by such

in my humble opinion

i would rather

an 'hey, how yall ' ?

take it from there to where ever it leads....

i really wanna try bowling

i really enjoy putt putt

i have been known to get into a chess game

yet...contrary to popular belief....

my laigs ain't spread

fer all comers

yep

truly

there must be more than .....popular opinion

to whet my whistle

fame & fortune are a byproduct of my life

not the main diet

for those in the know....

hey! how yall doin?

i am linda

i give good hugs

fer sure

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

As far as negotiation, I found out during my research (as with the same method) that all of the sites I discovered all told beginners that there should be none. Go at the pace of the slower person. Limit it to what you both feel as is comfortable, and both should have the ability to say stop and that ends things.

Yes, that's the advice we give, but I don't understand it as "avoid negotiating", instead, as avoid negotiating what shouldn't ne negotiated. In the other hand, people always negotiate. The advice about going at the peace of the slower person leads to the ideal deal to preserve a marriage INSIDE a negotiation where the faster one gives up something.

But, even when this were not the case, people reaches this site and looks for advice when already negotiating (and perhaps because they doesn't know ho to do it in this context without unwanted results). Negotiation is a big part inside most marriages social dynamics. Even if it were true that they shoud avoid it, they're used to do it previous to the advice, and it benefits the faster one to keep doing so. So here there could be another thing open to free interpretation.

[TNT]

Talk to your partner is definitely one of those answers that we give all the time...and few of us explain what we really mean by that.

Not only do you have to talk but you also have to listen and hear what your partner is saying. Being able to communicate with anyone about anything is definitely a skill.

One thing that Ted and I do is we repeat back to each other what we 'think' we heard the other say...if we heard correctly the other will say, yes, exactly...if not the other will say, no, that's not what I meant...and will then explain in a different way.

Eye contact is also very important when talking. Look at each other, it lets the other know that you are paying attention to what they are saying. Don't interrupt, let the other person finish their thought before replying. Think about your response...if you need time to think let the other person know that you need time to digest what they said.

If you just can't talk and listen to each other then writing down your thoughts and feelings and allowing the other to read them is a good way to go.

When it comes to swinging one of mine and Ted's favorite past-times is to read the post here on the board and ask each other what our feelings and thoughts are. We're not afraid to disagree with each other and when we do (though extremely rare) we continue to discuss things until we find a common ground that we can agree on.

As Mr. Alura always says...ask your questions in a way that it can't be answered with just a yes or no.


Teresa

[NandTfromCA]

I’ll second most everything already posted, especially the ”listen” that TNT mentioned.

A couple other thoughts (maybe just another take on the above thoughts)...

Expose yourself: We can give all the advice in the world but if either side of a couple is not truthful with themselves AND with their partner, they are destined for problems. Writing things down is one tool. Rephrasing the other person’s words back to them is another. But it has to start with someone completely exposing themselves. It’s personal responsibility for oneself, and to your partner...and can lead to an amazing relationship.

Anything that isn't positive to both halves of a couple, is bad for the couple: They both need to have their relationship’s best interest at heart. With 10 years of corporate sales experience, I am the better negotiator of the two of us (N is better at everything else ). Thankfully though, what both my awesome wife and my sales career have taught me is that for long term satisfaction, the resolution of any negotiation needs to be one that benefits both parties. If it doesn’t, the deal is off. One party may have the ability to negotiate their way into a situation but, if they care about their partner, they will hold back and let the other keep control. They can talk until their blue in the face but if one person is trying to get what they want and disregarding, or denying what it will mean long term (not truly caring about their partner), we will continue to see “I’m outa here” posts.

Aside from swinging, I feel that both of those points are keys to a good marriage. Swinging just brings them into sharp relief.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by NandTfromCA

Thankfully though, what both my awesome wife and my sales career have taught me is that for long term satisfaction, the resolution of any negotiation needs to be one that benefits both parties. If it doesn’t, the deal is off.

That's a wise comment and worth to point out.

Moreover, this gives a better ground to my disagreenment with Dave_kat about the "no negotiation" rule. One of the consequences of what you said is that both parties have to loose something to be able to win something, even when that something you loose may be seen as a risky investment made beforehand.

When avoiding a negotiation you state you're not up to give up something, and ultimatelly, anyone knows for sure what each other loosened, or invested, in the current project, wheter it's swinging or not.

Knowing the other one is up to loose something (exclusivity, risk feeling jealous, whatever) helps oneself reasure about being in a balanced situation when losing or investing something.

I think this have to do with that rule often heard by cheaters: "never fuck someone who have less to loose than yourself". Inside the couple it should read "never mess up with things that could make you loose way more than your partner looses".

[kingdruman]

all of our investment truly b in we

and all of our gain truly b in our family of 8

our community too truly has been enriched by the we of us

in our way

we are singular as a couple...king & linda

yet...plural as persons each

that which folks see can be a part and a parcel

yet both and seperate we are more that flat words on a screen

DYNAMICS

we are distinctive as we have lived together 24 /7

we have no work nor jobs to seperate us

artists

a most eccentric life we have followed

together !!

how many of yall have done this?

could yOU ALL KEEP YOUR SEPERATE IDENTITY

living together without outside influence and work and such?

we have and we do......

yet our most personal private selves and selfs remain

inalienable

yet we truly are seperate as individuals

whom can forgive my quirks as a writer?

words are my playground

in person i am just me....

plain jane..too short...i like beer...i am fond of my own cooking

i am a trained ballet dancer .....yet...see above

interesting logistics of a clay vessel perhaps.....

i am more intellect than bod

and more spirit than emotion

some how i figger

i really okay to some folk out there in cyber land

but i pretty sexy to some

yet atrocious to othern



how yall lifin ?

hope yall lifin well and goodly

fer this b the life we gots today

i really truly wanna go bowlin someday with some really happy folk

that would make my day

[Dave_kat]

I think where people mostly take the term negotiation as in like buying a car. I'll give you this much for these features, let's hear your counteroffer.

I'm sorry, but when establishing comfort zones and every other aspect of a relationship, negotiating like that leads directly into someone being put into a position where they are uncomfortable.

Take for example, that the woman feels that swallowing is not something she is willing to do with others. The male wants to include anal play (Please, I'm not typecasting in any way here). Does it come down to ok, I'll swallow to keep the "you're not getting into by butt" in play? Rather rudimentary of an example, but you can see where this leads.

When it comes to that, seriously, would anyone want to negotiate? Guys, if your wife told you she'd let you do her up the butt, but only if she could get a strap-on and do you first? You really want to negotiate on that one? (To those with whom this is not an issue, me myself I just don't want to know).

That is why I say no negotiation. No simply means no. I don't necessarily reccomend coupls coming up with 20 page lists of rules, all neatly double spaced and typed, but beginners need to understand that what the 2 of them might be comfortable with, you might honestly not be comfortable with someone else.

As time progresses, and some experience is gained, we all pretty much have seen those rules dissapear. But knowing and being there through the process, together, is a very good way to explore those comfort levels.

Negotiation is another tool of power in all honesty. If you go into a car dealership needing a car, must have it today, you lose all bargaining power. If you go into swinging with negotiated list, who's in power but the stronger of the 2 when it comes to establishing the rules?

How many times have we seen some new couple come in, and then leave the lifestyle because they have found themselves doing something that they are uncomfortable with? When this all comes down to it, that is what we are trying to help these new couples avoid, simply by posting on topics like we do.

Hate me if you want, but I'm certainly going to stand by my thought process here.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

Hate me if you want, but I'm certainly going to stand by my thought process here.

I wouldn't hate anyone for having his own way to think about things!

And believe me, I agree with you, altough you're giving very extreme examples, because these involved things someone or both parties are no up to give up. For those things I agree, there are no negotiation.

But, for most other things you do negotiate. "Darling, let's go to the movies, I wanna watch Die Hard 25." "Damn, another violent one, you know I don't like these... I want to watch You have an E-mail 2, let's watch this one an next weekend we get splashed by the blood comming out from the screen, ok?" These are the sort of negotiations where someone wishes something (doesn't require it) and is up to give up something else (that won't kill anybody).

This is a subtle difference, and you'd agree with me there are bargains in the every day of a marriage. You're about to tell me swinging doesn't involve this sort of negotiations, that is shouldn't, and I mostly agree, but that's preciselly my point here. We're talking about curious couples coming here asking for advice because they doesn't have any previous experience allowing them to manage the complexities of swinging. They certainly have some proficiency in these negotiations from the everiday experience, and they MAY want to approach the swinging stuff from what they feel they're proficient and whose dinamics they know inside the marriage. To avoid negotiating, most of them would have to start communicating to each other from the scratch, in a new way they're not used to.

And I am taking as an example the Tempest case, where she figured out she would be able to earn something from a negotiation, even when her guts told her it was a bad idea.

You can see a commitment, like the ones we all do when engaging into a new relationship, as the result for a previous negotiation. Since to swing you need to make new commitments, it's reasonable to think beforehand you can negotiate again, because you don't know most things you're about to deal with are non negotiable. And even when you know there are things that aren't negotiable, in the proccess there will be lesser negotiations, for example, to loose some fears.

And here I take myself as an example. Even when we didn't try to negotiate with each other "hard" limits, we made a couple of deals to be able to jump in, for example, we agreed no matter what happens, if something dislike the other, we'll talk about it, we wouldn't do it again, and we would "forget and forgive". Of course, this is just for these things we didn't knew if they were to step over a hard limit from some of us.

So, once you settle down on your experience, you won't need to negotiate anymore (as after years of marriage you have a well known commitment you don't need to noegotiate anymore). But until reaching that point, people do what they can do, and not necesarily what they SHOULD do, and the same happens with the way they understand an advice.

With people that DO negotiate inside their marriages, the "don't negotiate" advice may be meaningless, unless we were able to make them understand there are no negotiable things, and show them other ways to guide them into the lyfestile that doesn't involve negotiations (from your perspective) or involve just lesser ones (from mine).

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by kingdruman

all of our investment truly b in we

(...)

that would make my day

Are you part of some "Poetry Forums Attack Team"? I've seen your posts and you lost me long ago.

I hope there is a point here, I just cannot get it, probabily from the language barrier. If I have a translation problem, someone please let me know.

[Dave_kat]

Originally Posted by sereneiders

With people that DO negotiate inside their marriages, the "don't negotiate" advice may be meaningless, unless we were able to make them understand there are no negotiable things, and show them other ways to guide them into the lyfestile that doesn't involve negotiations (from your perspective) or involve just lesser ones (from mine).

You're right there. Joint Decision-making, coming to an agreement in the things that are done in every day life typically don't result in the destruction of marriages as this lifestyle has the potential to do so.

Although perhaps not just talking with your partner might be enough. Where you term negotiation, and I would term it though Joint Decision Making. Maybe in addition to how to talk to your partner, we should also include a definition type advise as well. We're experienced swingers, and yet we have a hard time on even deciding on what terms to use.

On another note, and I can't believe I didn't think about this, because I use it every day.
The Army teaches communication as a 3 way process. This was hit on before in another post, and I also have to agree with that one as highly effective.

Basically it defines communication as the process of making sure ideas and concepts are effectively understood.

1 - The sender uses what language is shared to put the idea into words and sent to the receiver
2 - The receiver processes that information
3 - Feedback - the receiver then returns the understood concept with any additional information attached, ie, the answer to the question along with the question involved.

The funny thing is, as with most things, the Army has a manual that defines this whole process. About 25 pages long.

There is more to it, such as finding a common language for the communication, which is why the thought of defining specific words that we use as lifestylers might make some sense in the long run.

I know someone else did bring this up, and I wish I could find which quote it was to properly give them credit. It is highly effective probably 85% of the time, as long as both parties are working to understand what is said.

[sereneiders]

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

Where you term negotiation, and I would term it though Joint Decision Making.

Altough I don't have any problem with the term "negotiation" as related exclusivelly with a commercial transaction, I do like the term Joint Decision Making in this case to emphatize there shouldn't be struggle between opposing wishes.

Originally Posted by Dave_kat

On another note, and I can't believe I didn't think about this, because I use it every day.
The Army teaches communication as a 3 way process. This was hit on before in another post, and I also have to agree with that one as highly effective.

I definatelly agree with you, this is a key concept. In the 3T game, the purpose of making private and public lists is to expose the problem you address here: when you write in your private list what you think your partner have in his/her private one, you're reflecting your understanding about his/her concerns and definitions. Doing this in turns of lists making and talking is deviced as an spiral approach to this understanding: after talking, everyone makes new lists that reflects both the concepts that changed after the talking, and the understanding of the peer conceptions and toughts.

In fact, the whole idea of the game came from my experience as a software developer. In a project, the missunderstandings you face from early stages (analisis, design) are way more costly to subside than the ones you face from the later ones (implementation). One of the main problems here is that the developer and the final user share the same words, but while to the developer they have a "general meaning", for the user they have a very precise meaning differing from a general one, and even worst, the user may not be able to accuratelly express it in such a formal way as to ensure the meaning would be understood. There are several methodologies deviced to address this problem, and I based the game in one of these, since in both cases we're talking abour well known, basic communication issues.