He's never satisified with the outcome of our swinging experiences

[Sweet_Candy]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

The fact is that many of the men in these situations seem to be perfectly happy watching the girls play and joining in with their own spouse as is appropriate. (In my opinion, those guys are lucky to be there and are truly living most men's fantasy anyway.)

Wow this sounds so selfish. I understand women have the final say in as to who will be played with but to say men are lucky to be here. What the hell? Men join in as appropriate? You are a couple and as a couple playing is suppose to be fun for both of you. I can't speak for all men by I can speak for myself, watching my wife get most if not all the fun can get boring after a while. No it's not about keeping score but after a while the feelings of being slighted creep in. This is what we've run into as well and my wife told me she was unhappy with most of the attention being directed at her and not at both of us. I don’t recall there being an "I" in team.

[just1gurl]

Hi SweetMelissa,

As a couple people pointed out, there does seem to be other issues unrelated to the swinging that are causing conflict.

BUT!!! As to the swinging, you need to know something:

As for the level of swinging you've done so far, my guess is that you are fairly young, and are unaware of something absolutely fundamental about the difference between men and women. I really don't mean to sound patronizing at all, please bear with me. Many women could suffice with what you've shared. You are the center of attention and you are getting "yours". Visually you are offering them the excitement of something new - your naked and sexually involved friends, but you are cutting it off at that and offering the guys then the same old thing. You will be living in a fairy tale if you expect his mind to accept that. If sex is just for the two of you (all though, see, now, you've opened the door in his head and his imagination where it no longer is.) you both should consider backing up. He married you and he loves you, but you both have experimented with new things. the cats out of the bag in his head, and it seems to be tearing up the furniture now!

Women like attention, men require consumation. You cannot change that no matter what rules you want to put on your swinging. Frequently it is phrased, "wired for" . women are wired for and built for admiration and to be the center of their attention - we get this, we can be satisfied, but you leave him standing there teased and no follow through, you are cheating what he needs. I guess its appropriate to say what his body requires.

You clearly state you are not willing to go any farther. You haven't intentionally been "selfish" thats not what I'm saying, your intent was to make him happy, but, inadvertantly you offered him candy and then you won't let him eat it.

I'm thankful for women's lib only so far as it allowed me to be payed decently for working my ass off, but nothing can change what we are inside fundamentally. Women are built for the "come here" and men are built to do the cumming! It's a good thing!

I THINK I've said what I mean, and may not have done a great job with it, but again, I don't at all mean to imply you've intentionally done something to him, he made the choice to be invovled to the extent you were comfortable. He probably meant it from the bottom of his heart, he loves you, that yes, he'd take that scenario that you'd allow. But the abiding hunger that exists within us as women to be wanted is mirrored in the man's need- need isn't strong enough, requirement? to do the taking of what's offerred.

I think I'm just repeating myself now. I love it about them. Consumate me baby!!!

{generalizations of course, individuals are and can be and except things very differently, but most of us fall within the hump of the bell curve.}

[CB_n_Red]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

The fact is that many of the men in these situations seem to be perfectly happy watching the girls play and joining in with their own spouse as is appropriate.

That's an opinion and not a fact. In fact I would not be at all happy with that scenario and neither would Red. For one thing she's straight so their is no "girl play" in our swinging. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

(In my opinion, those guys are lucky to be there and are truly living most men's fantasy anyway.)

At least you acknowledge that as an opinion. One that we do not share. It is by no means univeral that blokes like watching FF play.

The fact is, I do not feel comfortable with full swap, maybe I never will, and pressure to full swap (from couples or my husband)is a big turnoff for me.

And that's fair enough. You shouldn't be contemplating doing anything that you don't want to do. That would defeat the object of the exercise!

And the converse also holds true. He should not be involved with anything that he does't feel comfortable with. But if that includes what you are doing with other females then maybe that suggests that things need to stop.

I guess that part of the problem here may lie with the physical differences between men and women and the way that FF sex is sometimes or by some people not viewed as "real sex". All a bit of a minefield and everyone's definition is likely to be different, but I tend to view FF sex as being just as real and inimate as MF or MM sex. And yes, I would include oral sex in with that, regardless of what some people might claim

CB

[wolfnblu]

The fact is that many of the men in these situations seem to be perfectly happy watching the girls play and joining in with their own spouse as is appropriate. (In my opinion, those guys are lucky to be there and are truly living most men's fantasy anyway.)

WOW. WOW. I cannot believe you had the gall to say that!

I was just telling my husband last night that if I were a man, I would be getting a complex at alll of the women on the swing sites who are "bi"...and just want to play with other women! Gah. Something's not right there....there is a disproportionate number of women claiming to be bi, I think. It seems to be what's "in vogue."....to say you're bi and play with women. I'm not bi....I love men...but finding a couple out there where the female is interested in Wolf and not ME....is seeming to be difficult.

[VanHlebar]

Originally Posted by wolfnblu

I'm not bi....I love men...but finding a couple out there where the female is interested in Wolf and not ME....is seeming to be difficult.

Over hear!!! Over hear!!

MrsVan and I are straight, we want to play.. ever get to Cincy

All kidding aside.. there seems to be a number of these threads right now either the lady doesn't want to swap or the guy doesn't want to swap. And if both partners in the relationship are comfortable with this then hey so be it.. I can say that I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I get all the attention and MrsVan gets none.. all of the time. And I wouldn't want it the other way around either, where she gets all the attention and I get none. This whole thing is about the two of us and will always be about the two of us. We check the sites together, respond to email together, chat with prospective couples or singles(M or F) together. If we ever get to the point that this isn't the case for us, we will undoubtly quit as it won't be fun any more for someone.

Ok off my soapbox now So wolfnblu, CB_N_Red and Sweet_Candy, when can you all be in Cincy.. MrsVan and I can host facelick

-Van

[wolfnblu]

All kidding aside...

you were kidding?

[DBL D]

Originally Posted by CB_n_Red

...You shouldn't be contemplating doing anything that you don't want to do. That would defeat the object of the exercise!

And the converse also holds true. He should not be involved with anything that he does't feel comfortable with...maybe that suggests that things need to stop.

This is somewhat exactly where we're at, sweetmelissa. My wife keeps telling me that she's doing the best she can...and I (the selfish one ) have gotten tired of it. When she decided it was time to take a break, I decided that would be the end of it...for a while, until she starts to see what is really going on. Maybe we'll get things worked out and maybe we won't. Since I was the one that brought all of this up in our case, I should be able to say it's time to stop too. Maybe that's where you're headed too! Believe me, I'll miss it if that's the way it works out, but at least it's not going to be one-sided around here anyway. You both need to be on the same page and if that can't happen then it's best for you both to stop playing.

What you are doing is fine if both parties agree to it, if not, then I'd say, like I am trying to, that swinging may not be for you and you'll have to arrange other ways to satisfy yourself!

Male D

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

I appreciate all the constructive comments from everyone-- but someone help me out here. Western Swing (above), you sound just like my husband when he is complaining about being left out!

Maybe your husband is complaining about being left out because he really is feeling left out? His feelings are valid, even if you don't agree with them.

Mrs. WS and I have been in the lifestyle a couple of years now, and we have done most all of it: MFM, FMF, MFMF, MFMFMFMF (you get the point ). The opinion above is based on solid experience and looking at it from a man's point of view.

The fact is that many of the men in these situations seem to be perfectly happy watching the girls play and joining in with their own spouse as is appropriate. (In my opinion, those guys are lucky to be there and are truly living most men's fantasy anyway.)

The fantasy is to be involved in the sex... not just watching our women get it from others. This may be the fantasy some of the time, but not all of the time. Sometimes we like to watch, most of the time we like to be involved. As I've referenced before, on the survey on AskMen.com 39% of men (the majority percentage) listed a FMF as their #1 fantasy, not FF while they watched. In fact, watching FF didn't even make list.

The fact is, I do not feel comfortable with full swap, maybe I never will, and pressure to full swap (from couples or my husband)is a big turnoff for me. He knows this and presses the issue anyway, usually hurting my feelings in the process.

The fact is that you are having all the fun, and he gets to watch you have all the fun. That may be fun for him for a while, but it gets old. Sooner or later he wants to be part of the fun. How you are swinging is working for you right now, but not working for him anymore. And if it doesn't work for one of you, it doesn't work for either of you. That is the first rule of swinging. Like just1gurl said, the cats out of the bag now and he wants to justifiably take it to the next level. He's tired of being a spectator.

It's okay if you are not comfortable with full swap, but, if he wants it and you are not willing to comply, then you'd better be prepared to stop what you are doing too.

This is all really beside the point anyway, because the issue here is that various sources of his dissatisfaction (not always due to soft swap issues) are leading to conflict with my husband.

You are probably 100% right. Dissatifaction with swinging may just be another thing that is intensifying other issues in the relationship.

Mr. WS

[DBL D]

I might add to that and say that when you hear that "swinging has destroyed our relationship" that that isn't the case. It's usually the things you learned about each other during the times spent talking about and doing it is what destroyed the relationship. The fact that one of you can't seem to see how the other feels, or even consider their needs, is very important. You should be able to continue on without swinging if your relationship is truly solid.

M.D.

[good times]

Originally Posted by sweetmelissa

The fact is that many of the men in these situations seem to be perfectly happy watching the girls play and joining in with their own spouse as is appropriate. (In my opinion, those guys are lucky to be there and are truly living most men's fantasy anyway.)

You may be correct in the belief that most non-swinger men have the fantasy of seeing two girls getting it on. But after these same guys see ff play a few times, the fantasy is fullfilled, and at that point most of them realize that their is nothing in it for them any more. The only logical thing left to do at that point is to take it to the next level or quite all together, in my opinion.

I used to think it would be really hot to see two girls playing, but after seeing it at the clubs a few times I can say I am totally over that now, it no longer interests me in the least.

[WesternSwing]

Originally Posted by good times

I used to think it would be really hot to see two girls playing, but after seeing it at the clubs a few times I can say I am totally over that now, it no longer interests me in the least.

That's funny because I took a similar comment out before I posted above. When we first got into the Lifestyle it was so cool to see women kissing and having sex. Now when we go to vanilla clubs our vanilla friends get all excited about two women dancing together and kissing and I'm like "so?"

Mr. WS

[BodyScape02]

to put in my two cents darling... I would say... ( and I hate using my mothers axiom's, but it applies)

You can't have your cake and eat it too... then exspect him to be happy with the leftover crumbs.

Stop, break and enjoy getting back in sync with your man.

Say your sorry, because you did hurt him... not intentionally...but you starved him while you ate like a glutton all the same.

I know how it feels I have felt that way on the other side of the coin. Knowing he noticed I was feeling used and left out and showed me he cared by apologizing for it...would have meant the world.

Hell, it would have meant the world if he had noticed I left the room.

We all make inadvertant mistakes... it is how you handle them that defines you.



~Cat

[mrs good times]

Here's another view to maybe help you put this in perspective. Lets turn the tables and see how you would feel about the following:

Your husband is bi and you are not. He wants to experience oral sex with another man once a month or so but he says that there is know way the guy can play with you. Since you aren't bi you have no interest in playing with the other female so you both watch and wait until it's over, then go to your respective spouses for intercourse. He is getting to enjoy a new body and sexual feelings of a new person while you wait in the wings until he is ready for you.

How long would it take before you begin to feel that you were missing something?

Hope this helps.

[Vespertine]

Exactly, Mrs. GT.

Sometimes putting the shoe on the other foot is the best thing to do.

[dhwicks]

live life to the fullest