We Need Help With Communication

[eyesonus]

We are having a communication issue and need the advice of experienced people. The problem is that both of us want to go forward with our plan to have our first swinging experience, an MFM, but I am not able to understand how she feels about it. Aside from partial nudity and oral sex with each other only at a swing club we haven't done anything yet.
I have had the fantasy of a soft or full MFM for as long as I can remember but never took any steps to fulfil the fantasy, related to relationship issues with a former SO. I have since found my soulmate and we are very happily married. I had told her early on about my fantasy, but never stated that I actually wanted to do it, and it wasn't discussed. I had jealousy issues and felt it was better to keep it mental. But sometimes during lovemaking I would vocalize my fantasy and describe it to her in detail, as if in real time. Mrs. Eyes wasn't turned off, I think she enjoyed it, but I couldn't tell. I didn't ever suggest that we move forward. I was willing to let it go b/c I didn't want her to feel pressured to participate in something if she didn't want to. And since I wasn't sure of how I felt it wasn't brought up, and that was OK.
Well, I must have planted a seed b/c about a year ago Mrs. Eyes spent about a week cruising swinger web sites. Not as a voyeur, but doing research. "What is this lifestyle all about?" was her focus. She didn't just look at MFM questions, but ALL of it, including stuff we hadn't talked about, like swapping partners and girl-girl. That overwhelmed her at the time, she can't handle the thought of me being pleasured by another woman. ((That's fine with me! It makes me feel special) She got the idea that swinging was an "all or nothing" lifestyle and she couldn't go there. After a lot of talking over the next 7 months we found where we wanted the boundries to be so that we could both be comfortable with what we wanted. (for reference, see our profile on Swing Lifestyle. )
So here's the thing that has bogged me down. After we made the decision to go ahead I expected her to get "juiced" about it all and in my mind we would talk racily about it and plan it while we made love, or as a prelude to hot pig sex. It was a big mental turn-on to me. She didn't react that way. Sometimes it seemed to me she had intellectualized the experience too much, that it was a more clinical discussion, like making vacation plans.
We can't go clubbing often, all the decent ones are very far away, but we were still wanting to move and not wait for months so we signed up on Swing Lifestyle as Eyesonus. We have an extensive profile there, and isn't Baby a beautiful woman! Needless to say we got a lot of inquiries quickly. That in itself was a learning experience! We have corresponded with a likely target and after exchanging pics and emails we will be meeting him this week.
Despite the advanced stage of planning I still don't know what she wants from this experience. I'm not talking about spiritual stuff, I mean what physical acts does she want to do on him, me, both, and her. When I have asked her to describe what she wants two hot horny guys who are there for her pleasure to do to or for her she can't find any words. She says she just can't say what she wants, she can only go into the experience with an open mind and then see how she feels. I want her to be more verbal so I can get some idea of what to do when we get to the nitty-gritty. I want her to have a great experience but not knowing anything she wants makes it hard to plan what to do. Maybe I want to plan too much...is that wrong? Should I go into the hotel room with no idea of what to make or let happen and just go with the flow? Not turning loose, we have our agreed upon boundries. But within those boundries I'm clueless. I'm afraid that her reticence and inability to articulate her desires is not a good sign. Am I reading too much into this? It has caused us to slow to a crawl. It probably won't stop us, but I would like it to be resolved, just for my own comfort.

Mrs. here. I wanted to say that I have never been able to be very verbal during sex or about it, other than in a more joking way. I think his bottom line is that I am not and have never really satisfied that desire in him (lots of talking during sex) and that is really dampening this experience for him. I don't know why this is the ONLY area that I can't talk up a storm about , but it is. Maybe because this is the area where, over my lifetime, I have experienced the most insecurities. I've asked him to just accept that I'm working on that aspect, but it will take time and not take it as a bad sign. I mean, it's like I said, it's not like I've always been verbal about my sexual desires until now. I never have. If anyone has thoughts to share it would be greatly appriciated.
Mr. here. I WOULD like her to be more verbal, it is a real turn-on for me, but I don't think this is all about my desire for her to be verbal. I want to know that she knows what she wants, AND to be able to verbalize it.
We appreciate any input anyone has on this. Eyesonus.

[VegasLee]

In many years of being with Laura and also in the lifestyle I have found out two things.

Laura does not like to talk during sex and really does not like to talk about sex any other time. She prefers doing it then talking about it.

Also it is not good to set in your mind or verbally what you think you want to happen or what is going to happen outside of setting up your "rules" of what you will not do.

I promise you the experience will NEVER be as big or as great as you will set yourself up for in your mind. Do NOT over think this. Let is flow with what you are comfortable with at the time.

If you try to get it all staged you are going to be very tense and let down with the experience over all.

Do not make this harder then it really is. It is sex, you both know how to do that I am sure. Get naked, play and have fun.

Good luck to you both.

[JustAskJulie]

I think when it comes down to it, it is FAR more important that you can talk about your desires seriously while sitting on the couch next to each other than to be able to talk about them in bed. Too often, couples (or more often half a couple) makes the mistake of only talking about things IN bed and assuming that if they are talking about it at all that the other partner wants it to be a reality. You guys are in the opposite position.

The fact that the MRS is talking openly about what she wants and doesn't OUTSIDE of the bedroom is a key that she does want this to happen and it is not just some fantasy to discuss while getting hot and bothered.

Honestly, the fact that the MR only seems to want to discuss it in bed and is now worried that the MRS doesn't want to go through with it because she won't talk about it in bed... makes me wonder if he is really ready to make this fantasy a reality or if he just wants to keep it in the bedroom to spice up their one on one time.

[Vespertine]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

Also it is not good to set in your mind or verbally what you think you want to happen or what is going to happen outside of setting up your "rules" of what you will not do.

I promise you the experience will NEVER be as big or as great as you will set yourself up for in your mind. Do NOT over think this.

I couldn't agree more with Lee.

You're going to set yourself up for some major disappointments if you try to choreograph and construct your future play-date. You're going to 'think' the fun right out of it.

You only need to discuss your boundaries. As long as you're clear on what they are you can just go with the flow and enjoy yourselves.

I can understand how turned-on you get talking about potential scenarios when you're in the bedroom with your wife, but keep in mind- This turns you on. It's your thing. It's obviously not hers. Not everyone gets off verbally fantasizing. Some people are uncomfortable doing it. She says she's never been verbal when it comes to sex. Swinging and verbally fantasizing are two different birds. It's great that she's open to swinging, but don't expect all her sexual preferences to change too.

[RNDNV]

Mrs. here. I agree with the advice of VegasLee. We have been the lifestyle for a couple of years, but only partying a few times. I also have difficulty expressing my desires, mostly because I don't know exactly what they are until I'm in the situation. Each encounter is unique and to try to predetermine what will happen just does not work. It has taken my husband a little time to deal with my lack of planning, but he is learning to just go with the flow. Let the woman lead and let her take her own time. I think it is more important to communicate what happened and how you felt afterwards than to try to script something out beforehand. Women are complex creatures, and it is hard for us to know how we will feel until we feel it. Relax, and go with the flow. Remember to enjoy the journey and not worry about the destination.

Mr RND here. I hate to jump on the bandwagon this way Mr Eyes, but it sure seems that bigger issues may reside within you, and not your Mrs. Acceptance of your baby is critical, and if you are seeking to venture into this thing we call The Lifestyle, I can assure you that she needs to know you love, support and accept her unconditionally....just the way she is. She may never come to "talk" in or outside of the bedroom to your satisfaction, and perhaps all you can do to satisfy your need to have her let you know where she is at or how she feels is simply tell her how much you love her, how much she means to you, and let her know in an unpressured way that knowing what she is thinking is an important need for you.

Now to a deeper issue perhaps worthy of exploration for you guys. Mr. Eyes, it seems pretty clear by your post that you spend a lot of time in your head, trying to figure it all out. Reading, posting, exploring and discussing is valuable, and it can be said that many couples in the lifestyle do not spend enough time researching what they are getting into by bringing swinging into their lives before they just jump in and try to learn by the "sink or swim" method. That being said, there does come a point where you can overthink this stuff, and perhaps you should just trust that things will work out okay and step into the space with no preconceptions of what it's "supposed to look or be like."

Lastly, you might want to think about why you have this "need" to have your wife verbalize the details of her thoughts about swinging before you do anything. Perhaps you will find that this "need" of yours is really about your own insecurities about the whole swinging thing. You mentioned that "she can't handle the thought of me being pleasured by another woman." This statement sounds a bit speculative and might not be giving her credit for how she really might feel when it does happen. Additionally, maybe its more a statement about YOU, than her? If there is something you guys should talk about, maybe you should talk about that.

Mrs. here again. Remember, that there is no "right" way of doing this. Only what is right for each individual and each couple.

[EvilMJ]

Maybe the best conversation you can have it what she does not want to happen. If she cannot verbalize what she wants (and I can fully understand that), I think what you need to know is what she feels is too far, or what she is not comfortable with. Make some signs up between the two of you so that if something is happening that she does not like, you will know and be able to quickly end it.

Start there, and don't worry about getting too many details about her desires, she may not be 100% sure until she gets into the situation.

[eyesonus]

Thank you all for your input and support. It has been extremely helpful for Mr. to hear from other ladies that they have the same issue I do with being unable to verbalize. A few things to add though, we did the original thread together, so they were our words, not just one. Also from Julie's reply, he does discuss things in and out of the bedroom. After writing in, reading replys and giving more thought to it, I think he's wanting, in a fun playful way, to get me to give him ideas about what type of things I would want to happen, so that if he suggests something when we're in the moment I don't have a negative response or that I don't feel pressured to do it because he asked. I see that now. I just freeze up when it comes to verbally drawing a picture of the senario. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with that difficulty. The other thing is from RND's reply- yes, I truly can not handle the idea of him being pleasured by another woman. I've said it point blank on several occasions, which led to the establishment of the boundary that he is off limits. As he stated, that wasn't his fantasy anyway and he's ok with it.
I am the one who is guilty of over-analyzing. His attitude has always been more in the monment, like the time he pulled off my bathing suit and had me in his friends hot tub when the friend just went to get a beer. He thought he would come back and find us and join in. The friend was gone too long and it didn't happen, but it was totally spontaneous, and it excited us talking about afterword. I think I overwhelmed him when we first started talking about it with all of my thoughts and concerns about "what ifs?", which dwelled on the negative aspects and how to resolve them. It turned into a good thing for us and it led to where we are today.
It is so helpful to see our own thoughts written down and while writing them are forced to find the words to describe what you are feeling. All of you seem to be so aware of these problems, it really helps us to hear your thoughts. Thanks again to you all for taking the time to respond. You were very helpful. If you have anymore thoughts, please share.

Mr. here. In reading your answers I was impressed with how well thought out your responses were. We really appreciate your taking the time to help us. Baby wrote the first part of this response while I was at the store, and after reading what she wrote I think we have it solved. You guys are right, I do live some in my head and do want to have some "control" over the situation, sorry, "conditioning." I need to get over that b/c as many of you said, this is not a scripted play and disappointment will follow if I try to be ahead of the curve on all things. I can relax now, knowing that many have gone through the same thing, and that it is not such a big issue. Since we first wrote we both feel better about things now.
Out of all this we've decided that with friends like you out there... who needs therapy!!

[intuition897]

Eyesonus, you've just received some very good advice here and I can only reiterate.

Mrs. Eyes, you sound very much like me. I can talk your ear off usually but when Mr. asks me "What are your fantasies? What do you want? Details, details!...", well I clam right up. I feel ridiculous trying to spell out in detail precisely what I want to do or have done to me. (I think Mr. actually likes making me squirm like that; he thinks it's funny :rollseyes I'm not sure why this is, but I think it has something to do with the idea that if I say it, he'll get the idea that it must happen exactly that way. I don't want a script! I don't need a plan. As VegasLee suggested, I prefer that everyone just gets naked and has some fun. Whatever happens happens.

It's really great that you're both exploring like this. They say to slow down and go at the pace that is comfortable for you. I agree with this to a certain extent, but there will come a time (or times) when you will reach the outer edge of your comfort zone. For example, moving from soft-swing to full-swap. There are some points you will reach where you just can't see beyond the mist, and you just don't know what's behind the door. There's no way around it but a leap of faith. It's at these times that you will experience either the greatest growth or the most pain. It's the risk that you each take, trusting that neither of you will hurt each other, walking through that door into the unknown, that makes the adventure so rewarding.

[twoplayful2]

Ditto all of that with us. I (the MR) am a wanna-know-the-plan freak while she seems to be too uncomfortable to even think about those details, forget about talking about them. Sometimes it's still a battle with myself on whether I should be pushing for SOME kind of plan, but I pretty much always hold it in and just go along for the ride

Originally Posted by VegasLee

I promise you the experience will NEVER be as big or as great as you will set yourself up for in your mind. Do NOT over think this. Let is flow with what you are comfortable with at the time....

I know I put a lot of thought into what our first MFM was going to be like and I had this spectacular event built up in my mind.
When we had our first MFM it was leaps and bounds above my every expectation and they were set pretty high. Maybe it's because I have a shitty imgination, I dont' know.
But what I do know is we thought about it- it was good. We talked about it- it got even better. We fullfilled it- Amazing!! facelick

[northindycpl]

Dito! There is a lot of good advice here! I wanted to share with you aome advise on the verbal aspects you (Mrs.) were having issues with.

I, too, was very uncomfortable discussing sex with Mr. Indy in the beginning. Mostly because I was so naive about it, and he wasn't. I was afraid he would find my questions, thoughts or feelings idiotic and childish, just because I seemed to be so inexperienced.


Mr. Indy is also a very verbal man. Early in our relationship, (Maybe subconsiously) instead of trying to get me to be verbal spontaneously- he started asking me questions. He would say is this good, do you want me to go here or here, things like that. It made be start responding, and once I did, My comfort level with saying certain words, like cock, pussy, harder, softer, etc... went up.

He then started talking to me out of the bedroom too. It has been great. We have become a very verbal couple now. I am still a bit leary about verbalizing things in front of other people, but not in front of him.

I, was also shy about saying what it was I actually wanted out of a MFM, or any of our play when we first started. he approached it the same way. Questions! We would sit down and he would say, ok are you comfortable with DP, are you comfortable with kissing, etc. All I had to say was 'yes' or 'no' and that was it.

[RNDNV]

Originally Posted by eyesonus

The other thing is from RND's reply- yes, I truly can not handle the idea of him being pleasured by another woman. I've said it point blank on several occasions, which led to the establishment of the boundary that he is off limits. As he stated, that wasn't his fantasy anyway and he's ok with it.

We couldn't help but notice another issue in the background that we would like to touch upon, if you don't mind. It did strike us that you guys might be heading into swinging with a bit of an "all about her" attitude, and we have a hard time imagining that as you guys really get into the Lifestyle you will no doubt encounter a situation where your hubby and another woman might really connect and want to play, yet your "boundary" will prohibit that from happening, and quite frankly, that could lead to a conflict. Boundaries should NEVER be crossed or renegotiated "in the heat of the moment" (that can REALLY cause problems! ), however, we can't help to think that your boundary might be setting you guys up for a different problem or conflict in the future as you continue your journey forward in swinging. I posted a response to Mandy1540 in another situational thread called "please help" (post 153733) regarding jealousy that we think applies to Mrs. Eyes as well. Instead of repeating that other post, we thought we would point you out to that one for your review.
Good luck, best wishes, and XOXOXO , R&D

[eyesonus]

Mr. Eyes here. Your comments and suggestions have helped me and Mrs. Eyes understand ourselves better. Some suggested that my concerns showed that I was not ready. Does it come out that strong? I feel that I am ready, as ready for something I've never done before as I can be. The desire is there, the mental attitude is there. We're ready. We're arranging a meeting with our first guy who seems nice and gentle enough for us newbies.

The biggest help were the women's comments who say that they don't get "mental," but open themselves to the experience. This helps me understand where Mrs. Eyes is in her heart, even if she can't speak about what's there.

On a reread our initial post was probably more confusing about us than helpful and I may have given the wrong impression. My worry had to do with Mrs. Eyes reactions to our discussions about what we planned to do. It wasn't just the lack of verbalization,it's that it didn't seem to turn her on when we would discuss it in general terms. (both in and out of bed) Or when we viewed profiles or email. I guess I just wanted to see her get excited at the prospect of an MFM. I saw no indication in any way (verbal, physical) of arousal. A positive reaction from her was my sign that she was into it also, at least so far. She IS ready, I see now, she has taken too many steps for me to think differently, considering the advice received here.

I was afraid that since she didn't give me access to her mind it was b/c she didn't want me to know what was in there. Like, embarassment or shame or fear. I, in my head, began to think it was an indication that she was doing this only to please me, which would be awful, b/c we do everything as a couple for our joint fun. If Baby isn't happy, I'm not happy......

Now I see that I have put too much concern into this. Your insights have been good for us. I'm just gonna release myself and have a "What, me worry?" attitude and just jump in. facelick If I'm not ready, well, we will find out quick! If she isn't ready, we'll take that in stride also.
Thank you all so very much.

Mrs. here. I read over this before we posted and it's true. I haven't shown nor have I really felt aroused while looking at e-mails, etc., though I'm looking forward to it and excited. Arousal will come when we are there. Mr. is hot! facelick I'm just not really expressive until the moment. I do appreciate the fact that he is sensitive to where I am and doesn't want to push me into something I'm not ready for. That's why I love him so much! Thank you all again! We'll update you when it happens!!!!

[BradAndJanet]

Originally Posted by eyesonus

... I'm just gonna release myself and have a "What, me worry?" attitude and just jump in. facelick If I'm not ready, well, we will find out quick! If she isn't ready, we'll take that in stride also. ...

I read this and thought, "Wow, that's really a great attitude to have!" If you have a good, solid, open relationship, one swinging 'disaster' isn't really going to do much to hurt it. We worried too much about that at first ourselves. Our first encounter was a real mess, but now we just laugh about it.

Let us know how things go!

-B