Is Swinging Biblical? If so, let's endorse a hott new forum and consistantly prove it

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by rpu3

You have a bunch of other forums you can post in, including The Cafe and General Swingers, to name two. Why not carry your conversations out there, and see if it generates enough conversation to support its own forum on this Board in the future? Why do you need your own separate forum right this minute? One thread does not equal justification for a forum.

Tisk tisking and handing down "commandments" to Julie for her decision on HER Board that is operated on her time and her money is quite unnecessary, among other things. If it's that necessary to you, maybe you should start your own vBulletin board on your own domain and handle it with your time and your money.

Originally Posted by cplnuswing

It's not a freedom of speech issue at all. What is being said is there are already other venues aka forums (Cafe, General Swingers) on THIS message board where the topic CAN be discussed for those who are interested in participating. OP is free to post on the topic following the rules of the board just like other posters posting on their other topics.

But, there simply hasn't been enough interest in the subject to warrant giving it it's own forum on this board. If the OP feels there is a huge unmet need out there, then he should open his own board dedicated to the subject and gather the information he is after.

Exactly! The way we choose to determine whether or not a new forum is necessary here is by the bulk of threads generated on that topic. As of yet there have not been enough threads to warrant a new ACTIVE forum on the topic of religion. The archive are much more broken down by subject because they are just that archives (broken down distictly to make it easy to find the topics associated with pretty much ANY question that has come up on the board more than once. Some could argue that we should have active forums very EVERY one of those topics but it would be ludicrious if you think about it since in many of those cases (including the case of the religion archive) the archive contains many threads with the same question/answer set repeated by different users. EVERY thread in any of the archived forums originated in an active forum.

That said, if you want to discuss something here, discuss it, no one is stopping you from starting threads on religious subjects in the forums that already exist. Please do. If it's related to swinging and religion then by all means post it in the General Swinging forum. If it's just something related to religion then please post it in the Cafe. And if said threads get enough on-topic discussion and generate more new threads on the subject then I would agree a new forum would be necessary.

As of yet in this discussion I have yet to see enough people post that they feel the need for such a forum as is. So far the only person who feels that need is the OP, and to be honest from the original post I can't help but think that there is an agenda to his desire to see it added here.

[sweet_tna]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

It has been fixed.

Guess it was "broke". My bad. But that also shows how little interest I have in such a forum . . .

=)

[VegasLee]

A few things come to mind here regarding this.

First off, what makes you qualified to write about religion and the Swinging Lifestyle? Are you a religious scholar and what is your experience in this Lifestyle?

I spent 20+ years in the church, even teaching youth for three years and over thirty years in this Lifestyle and I will be the first to admit that I am nowhere near qualified to try to speak or write on this subject matter. I have the experiences but am not the master I would need to be to try to lead others into this realm.

Most all books, with few exceptions are written by people on the out side looking in. It is THEIR interpretations of the subject matter. Does not make it right or wrong but it is nothing more then their opinion.

Also, this is Swingers Board, Julies Board. She is the one that has worked and nurtured it for over ten years. She does not have to change it to suit anyone's needs or desires. You feel so strongly about what you are doing, invest the time and money into building your own forum with subject matter to your liking.

The problems with many public forums is you have many people with little to no practical experience trying to lead others in their quest. I relate it to those that would try to tell someone how to fly a plane because they have been on a couple of them and watched a few airport movies.

[rpu3]

Originally Posted by MapleSwingers

No, everyone who disagrees should not open their own forum, ludicrous idea!

My point was if the was so gung ho on having a specifically dedicated forum, as he is requesting Julie to do and she has declined to do, then perhaps he should go create his own forum. She doesn't have to comply with his request and that has nothing to do with the expression of opinion. He's free to post in a currently available forum to his heart's content.

as long as respect is maintained then someone should be able to post an opinion even if it's to tell the owner of such a forum what your opinion is, otherwise, why bother posting if the owner is to be the be all and end all of all posts and opinions.

Taking the Board owner to task for not agreeing to his request for a forum dedicated to religion and swinging doesn't strike me as an opinion. Just my opinion, anyway.

Generally, I've not seen Julie strike down opinions on this Board except in extreme circumstances. However, it's her board, a private enterprise, run on time and her money, and which she allows the public to read and register to post. Ultimately, it's her decision if she wants to create yet another forum on her board. As far as the operation of her board is concerned, she is the "be all and end all".

Just my .02, which is worth practically nothing now compared to other currencies.

As to the topic of the OP's post - I'm personally not interested in such a forum, given my typical agnostic stance.

[davephx]

Originally Posted by ownerspet

However, I feel that some people who have not been able to break out of norms which have been installed in them since a young age by society in general (which often began with their parents from day one); find it difficult to avoid guilt of going against what they have been told their entire lives.

Exactly. And by discussing it sometimes minds can be opened up. As you say you don't have to be Christian in order to have guilt by instilled society moral expectations often coming from a traditional Christians anti-sex stand but also has spread to society with all or no religious beliefs.

But even some traditional Christians can me open minded.

Over the years even from strong Christians that had been challenged by different views to motivate them to study the issues more seriously just as I did decades ago.

One person who was one of my harshest critics very long ago on the old Prodigy boards before websites were common attacking with the usual bible scriptures without a clue as to what they actually meant in the language and culture of the times many years later wrote me how his views had changed and wanted to thank LC for challenging his traditional thinking.

Just this morning I got another e-mail saying in part:
hi Dave,
i wanted to write and comment on your site. i am shocked at what i was reading on your site about pre-marital sex and multiple wives. there is so much that the church has misses over the years. Your site has really got me thinking and i appreciate the truth that i seen in it. i am going to go back and re-read some articles with my wife.

until very recently was in agreement with the religious right. i couldnt stand gays and at times i looked down my nose at other people. now, i truly believe God has re-wired my brain and my heart concerning what i believe and feel about various issues and most importantly, people."

That is my main motivation for libchrist.com as well as take the opportunity when the issue arises on boards like this- to help those overcome guilt- whether Christian or not. Most of the attacks on swing clubs are coming from the Christian right. Getting Christians to open their mind is important I beleive in the fight for adult rights in the U.S., but also the non Christian general public that tend to define the "morality" of our society regardless of religious beliefs.

[davephx]

Originally Posted by two4youinswva

Or Greek, depending on the testament.
This is a pretty diverse and educated group. Wouldn't be surprised if there was someone on here trained in the classics.

It is not that easy sadly. First you have the language issue. Jesus and most in biblical times spoke in Aramaic but most of the written material is in Greek or Hebrew. So there is translation issues from day 1.

Then there is differences in meaning of words which has changed from ancient times till today as well as translation bias.

Bill, co-founder of LC had two seminary professors who were on the committee to write the NIV version of the bible. They openly discussed the conflict on the committee whether to translated based on "tradition" or "dynamic equivalence" which is what it actually meant in the society at the time. Sadly tradition won. In my view it was mans imposed views over what the text actually said in the culture in which it was written.

Just one common example is what is translated as "adultery". Totally different meaning today. In biblical times only a married women could commit adultery which was the violation of a mans rights over his wives. Totally different than todays definition. It is a good translation of the word, but the meaning today is vastly different.

[Alura]

I'm not a christian, Dave, but I applaud what you do and wish you continued success.

In my opinion, the Swingers Board should concentrate on swinging and let Dave handle the religion. We can't hope to do as good a job as he does.

Mr. Alura

[Chris&Amelia]

Originally Posted by MapleSwingers

Being a non american I won't quote the 'freedom of speech' that you are all so gung-ho on, but the same should apply to a forum...

MapleSwingers... Freedom of speech is all well and good, but you have to understand that this forum is not "public property". It is not owned nor operated by the government. It is, essentially, Julie's property.

It ultimately comes down to what Julie and the Moderators feel is appropriate. I have rarely seen a thread locked or deleted, and even then it was usually because it was really over the top or spam. Julie is very tolerant of opposing viewpoints here. As far as I can tell, the only topic that is really taboo here is political discussions (a decision I agree with).

But, to stay on the "religion" topic... Swingersboard.com is Julie's realm, and she is God here. What she says, goes.

[davephx]

Originally Posted by cupl4fun

the church translates as "fornication" is the Greek word "porneia" which actually means "unlawful or immoral sex". Most likely meaning sex forbidden in Leviticus in this context meaning sex with animals, incest, temple prostitution, and rape to name most of them.

And regarding Leviticus
What you have to realize is the Levitical laws were designed to have priests distinguish themselves from the practices of the religions of the peoples around Israel in other parts of Canaan, especially those east of Jordan. These people were involved in the worship of Molech and Baal and other gods and goddesses.

In the start of chapter 20 if you read verse 2 it says to "speak to the children of Israel." Christians are NOT the "children of Israel". No Christians have an obligation to follow Jewish Levitical Laws- they just do not apply. Have you eaten a ham sandwich lately?

On fornication/porneia of course that is what we point out.
"porneia" which actually means "unlawful or immoral sex".

So what is "unlawful or immoral sex" someone might reasonably ask:

There are definite biblical restrictions on sexual acts which are broader called sexual immorality (Greek "porneia"). These are:

1) Sex during women's menstruation. Lack of hygiene for nomads in the desert (lack of clean water) could lead to dangerous infections -"unclean" in ENGLISH refers to filth/dirt/etc., but in Hebrew, it refers, as validly, to RITUAL impurity it was a "sin" (spiritual impurity) to do such.

2) Adultery which biblically was understood by the Hebrews to mean wrong for a married women to have sex with another man since violated her husbands property rights. A man could marry when he was age 12.5. It was never understood to be wrong for a married man since his wife had no such rights. The married man could have as many wives (as long as women was at least age 13.5) and concubines (breeders) as he wished as long as "other women" were not married (another man's property). Certainly there is nothing wrong with by agreement between man and wife, sharing sexually with others as in polyamory or swinging since no property of cheating issue. Nothing ever was wrong with singles sexuality. "Fornication" is a total mistranslation lie of Greek "porneia"

3) Sexual Idolatry as in using the temple prostitutes for pagan fertility goddess worship. Or, doing the same with the golden calf and having sex to praise it as a god when Moses came down. Porneia as used in I Cor 6-9, falsely translated in some bibles as fornication was actually the practice of the prostitutes in the Temples of Corinth selling their services as a part of pagan fertility goddess worship which was what Paul was warning against. Not even specifically about prostitution but used as a pagan sexual goddess worship.

Corinth was one of the sex capitals of the world. Corinth was even a Metaphor for Fertility. "Corinthian girl" meant prostitute, "to play the Corinthian" meant to visit a prostitution house for goddess worshiping. It was the idolatry that was the sin, not sex with prostitutes. "Common" prostitutes are often mentioned with no negative inference.

The major deities at the time was Aphrodite, goddess of fertility, and Cybele, the Mother Goddess. The worshippers of Aphrodite worked as prostitutes in the temples.... these temples held over one thousand prostitutes. The purpose of these prostitutes was to earn money for the temple and to worship Aphrodite (they used sex as worship). So over 1,000 prostitutes were cultic, and that's just from the worshippers of Aphrodite

Nothing in the bible ever said there was anything wrong with non-goddess "common" prostitution which was common and often mentioned with nothing negative about it. Tel Aviv Today is the brothel capital of the world since prostitution just isn't a biblical issue for Jews and its legal in Israel as it is in almost all the world outside the U.S.

4) Pederasty - sexual sins that took various forms: The practice of pederasty falls into three distinct styles. First is the relationship between an older man and a young boy. Second is the practice of slave prostitutes. Third is that of the effeminate "call boy" or male prostitute. Other practices included a heterosexual male degrading another heterosexual male by anal intercourse after capturing them in battle. Another practice was heterosexual's using anal intercourse to drive out other heterosexual strangers they didn't like such as the case of the Sodom story. It had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality which is simply being as God designed some people to be.

Beyond these 4 there is no biblical basis for any other definition of porneia, or sexual immorality.

For Christians remember that Christ taught in the Sermon on the Mount that the only law is the law of love. He demonstrated this by reversing four of the OT laws which conflicted with loving people. Therefore anything that was hurtful, not by mutual consent etc. would be immoral for a Christian, but obviously not loving sexuality regardless of marital status or natural sexual orientation.

[interested-05]

Reading thru wise virgins statements, I find myself wondering whether he is simply praising himself, or implying in some odd way that he, like Jim Jones or David Koresh, or a number of other cults, may be the new messiah, looking for followers.
such persons are well worth, staying a long distance from.

[JustAskJulie]

I'm still trying to figure out how I'm blocking anyone's freedom of speech or freedom to post anything on this site by NOT starting a new forum dedicated to a specific set of discussions.

If you want to discuss religious topics FEEL FREE TO DO SO! If that isn't clear enough I don't know what is. If we start getting so many active topics related to religion and swinging that it would make sense to create a new sub-forum then I would gladly do so. However, that has not happened yet.

In the 8 years that the forums have been running we've had maybe 40 threads started on religious topics... and they have all had basically the same core question. So that said, WiseVirgin (and anyone else for that matter), if you want to discuss religion and siwnging here DO IT! Go start some damn threads and discuss to your hearts content. If in doing so you get enough people involved in said discussions that it appears it would be worthwhile to start a new forum, I would be happy to. HOWEVER, as of yet there has been no proof provided to me (either through active posts or through enough people responding with an interest in such) to encourage me to do so.

NOW STOP YOUR BITCHING and go start some actual threads and discuss whatever it is that you want to discuss.

[cupl4fun]

"NOW STOP YOUR BITCHING and go start some actual threads and discuss whatever it is that you want to discuss."


I'm sorry mom! I'll go start some threads right now! Just don't hit me again!

Seriously though Julie has far from limited anyone's freedoms I think this board is all about freedoms. Am I right or am I right?

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by davephx

It is not that easy sadly. First you have the language issue. Jesus and most in biblical times spoke in Aramaic but most of the written material is in Greek or Hebrew. So there is translation issues from day 1.

Then there is differences in meaning of words which has changed from ancient times till today as well as translation bias.

Very good point.


If I were still a Christian, I would subscribe to the theory that not all of the writings have been found, most importantly the scrolls where God says "All those rules and stuff I've been giving you, forget about that stuff. Just do what's right for you, but don't hurt anyone else, or infringe on their rights. It's all good".

I do applaud you on the work you do with the LC site. I've directed quite a few folks with that internal conflict that some swingers deal with to your site the last few years. Keep up the good work. It does help a lot of swingers.

[Chris&Amelia]

Originally Posted by cupl4fun

I'm sorry mom! I'll go start some threads right now! Just don't hit me again!

NO MORE WIRE HANGERS!

[BiloxiCouple]

I think Cavemen started swinging and also BDSM. So I endorse the Caveman.

The Romans cleaned up swinging with the public baths.

Then swinging went underground during the dark ages.

Now it emerges again publicly with the advent of mass communication and the change of the millenium.