What Defines Cheating?

[JustAskJulie]

I have to agree with those that have said that cheating comes down to deciet simply because what cheating is is going to vary from couple to couple and sometimes from person to person.

I had a boyfriend many years ago who thought he had cheated on me by allowing another girl to kiss him. He hadn't kissed her back he just didn't stop her as fast as he thought he should have and he felt terrible. I pretty much laughed at him.

In my relationships I would classify swinging as anything that either of us felt we needed to hide from the other one regarding a relationship or connection to a third party.

[WesternSwing]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
Now that's what I call honesty! And, I suspect, where many of us would find ourselves...not lying, but not knowing exactly what we would do in a given set of circumstances. So very many variables.

OK....so another question that was actually the basis of my thought process...if you don't mnd?

We have several participants on the board - married. Have said their wives have no interest in swinging. Yet they come here, participate, make "friends" with all of us, never any hint of trying to "hook-up" with anyone... Further, I believe a place like this to come to for reading and friendship might even prevent problems in some relationships. Kind of the "my place" thing, if you understand what I mean.

I think that message boards like this can be an outlet for those that are interested in an activity, but can't for one reason or another participate. Message boards can be like a support group and actually help the relationship. It really depends on the person visiting. Will they eventually act on it, or is it simply a release or support area?

That answer has to be answered by each person individually.

[Buck]

Originally posted by hmr
[. Many people discuss the possibility of swinging, but don't go any further because one or the other is timid or shy.

Sometimes it takes the other partner to take the first step!
Taking the first step is sometimes a frightening thing to do. They want to proceed slowly, as to not scare their spouse. They also want to gather as much information as possible before broaching the subject again. Gain some insight as to what they are talking about, before they bring their partner onto the site.

mrs hmr [/b]

This describes my situation exactly! So, am I cheating? Not in my mind, my heart, or my conscience. I am simply moving slow as advised by many others and waiting for the right time to introduce my spouse to this board. That time may come, and it may not. so in the meantime, I still do participate in some of the discussions. If you check my history of posts, you'll see that at first I had many questions and from time to time I have pursued answers to those questions when I saw a post from someone with similar questions or already had the expeiences I had questions about. The other posts I've made have just been a general hodgepodge of things and comments. I guess to each his own, but I am certainly protective of my relationship with my spouse and want to make sure I proceed slowly in the swinging idea. Thanks to those of you who have sent me PM's of support and understanding.

For me, trust is the foundation upon which a solid relationship rests. If either partner does anything (vicariously or physically) that he/she feels must be concealed, then that structurally weakens the strong foundation. Basically, if I felt that something I might do could possibly hurt my partner (emotionally or physically), I simply would not do it. Playing is fun when everyone is respected - playing with someone's head or heart is about as far away from cool as you can get! Deceit has no place in a joyful way of living; honoring one another definitely does. soapbox.

[HappyEyeball]

Well said, pacouple4u.

J&B

[flassh]

mostly well said, pacouple4u.

Question back though: does not "structurally" imply the part that can be seen by others? Or, did you mean the hidden "foundation" of your relationship. In your building analogy, I would suggest that your individual values and mores mesh together to form a greater foundation and the end product is a structure, when viewed by others, is solid and immoveable by a storm. Of course, for some here on this site, a storm can be devastating because they do not hold any values or mores in common with their SO. Is this a true statement. Please let me know if this is true for you? I think it is true for me and I do venture into some areas of interest that test my values and mores and as quircky as this sounds, I simply like to explore and read and get feedback without dragging my spouse into such worlds. I get to see and hear some things that may challenge my devotion if only for a moment but I constantly am reminded of how much I care and love my better half. I share the gems that I uncover here and elsewhere as we may need them in our lives. Thus, we are getting feedback even though I don't tell her every last thing I say or read here. I will repeat the words I used previously, if someone is so dark to deceive their partner, one must take this deceit to heart and confront it and kill it or remove it. Sooner than later.

[HappyEyeball]

flassh,

Structure is what defines the substance of the relationship. What others see is secondary. If how others see you affects the structure, then the relationship is suspect.

"Of course, for some here on this site, a storm can be devastating because they do not hold any values or mores in common with their SO. Is this a true statement. Please let me know if this is true for you? I think it is true for me and I do venture into some areas of interest that test my values and mores and as quircky as this sounds, I simply like to explore and read and get feedback without dragging my spouse into such worlds. I get to see and hear some things that may challenge my devotion if only for a moment but I constantly am reminded of how much I care and love my better half. "

I may be misunderstanding you, but with repect, unless you're only referring to thinking process and discourse, your comments reads like rationalization for doing things under your SO's radar.

J&B

[flassh]

HappyEyeball: I totally agree that what others "see" is secondary.

My comments do read alot like a rationalization but this was not my intent per se. I do enjoy the discourse very much and spouse knows that I read the postings in various threads on a daily basis.

My point was that our foundation is so much more than what we grow into or out of as individuals. Previously in this thread I was questioning those with simplistic definitions. I don't want to be guilty of this so I will explain a little better. I think of a structure as the viewable area of a building. It has a foundation that is not so visible. The structure can be torn apart and rebuilt on the old foundation if that foundation were correctly designed and built.

Couples that don't build their foundations strong (even when no one may ever see it) they will have problems rebuilding if they ever get hit by a storm that does some damage.

My problem with so much of what I am learning here on the board is that I feel topics here on this board are very germane to building a foundation and that many "mainstream" couples would benefit even if they did not show interest in the swing aspect. It is though there is alot of wisdom that is wasted. Sex is for fun to swingers but the balance of input is centered around compassion and wanting to help. Just my thoughts. Thanks, Flassh

[HappyEyeball]

"Couples that don't build their foundations strong (even when no one may ever see it) they will have problems rebuilding if they ever get hit by a storm that does some damage"

I agree completely. IMO, I'm inclined to think of the issue in simpler terms. I've been through some of the nasty stuff and in my view it *does* boil down to the dry and simple.

J&B

Every inidividual and couple has the absolute right to determine which "rules" maintain their comfort level(s) when it comes to the issue of cheating. I feel that it's not okay to "venture" anywhere without "dragging" my partner into it without his/her knowledge and expressed consent. I agree with the likening of this concept to sort of flying "under the radar" of my partner, and that seems awfully close to to being devious in my book. That being said, if one's partner approves of such things and it works for you, then that's your business and nobody else's! My questions are: 1)Do they know before you act and 2)Do you act w/out their knowledge because you think they'd be annoyed, hurt, etc. and 3)What's more important in the long run - nurturing and maintaining that strong foundation (simplistic as that may sound!) by not doing things that could even possibly give your partner cause to doubt you? Please don't misunderstand me - if this works for you, that's wonderful. Straightforward, out-in-the-open direct and simple honest 2-way communication is what works for us and that means we do things with each other's knowledge - and that has worked for us through all of life's storms so far. Life throws enough curves our way; we see no reason to complicate things when it's easily avoidable. To each his/her own!

[Elusive BiFem]

You made some excellent points, pacouple4u (and others have too), but a question...

Flying under the radar...I understand...but sometimes people might want to "investigate" an area...gather information...before introducing their spouse to something. Maybe to find out exactly HOW to introduce their spouse. Maybe to find out if they think their spouse MIGHT be interested.

When I asked this question originally, I was not referring specifically to swinging; however, since this is a swingers board, most answers have come from that perspective. With that, I wonder how many spouses...without being "gently" led to the idea of swinging, would have vetoed the suggestion of even investigation of the subject? As in "Have you lost your freaking mind?!?"

Maybe...just maybe...by being here without the knowledge of the spouse...gathering information...some have been able to learn things about themselves, how to approach their spouse, if they should make the approach at all...and maybe some have even discovered it just isn't a place for them.

So, given that type of scenario...is it still cheating to be here without the knowledge of the spouse?

- EBF

Thank you! Given any type of "scenario," for us, the best path is to be direct. We're not giving each other sales pitches, we're exploring variations of sexuality together... It makes logical sense to us to approach any situation with the idea that both of us have the intelligence to make good decisions based on the (same) facts laid before each of us "on the table," as opposed to some of those facts remaining "under" the table in order to make a more palatable presentation. Our experience(s) have shown us that where plain old simple chemistry exists ("hitting it off well"), there is no need for Page Ranking work. When the energy is good with another couple, things just flow nicely and there's no need for anyone to feel compelled to "lead" anyone "gently" or otherwise! Regarding the question of whether it is considered cheating to be in this forum without your partner's knowledge, I feel that in order for this to have a truly "therapeutic" effect on a troubled relationship, one would need to share his/her input with his/her partner. Keeping things strong works better when you share your thoughts/feelings (good, bad, indifferent) with your parnter - whether it's easy or not!

[Elusive BiFem]

Thanks Pacouple...there is a lot of wisdom to be shared on this board. Don't you think so?

- EBF

You're welcome & thank you also. Respecting individual limits and comfort levels is what it's all about, basically. What those limits and levels are is up to each person! Have a great sunny Spring day!

[yawanna]

EBF: I can see your point of this being a research tool regarding swinging, and how in some cases may be undertaken without the partner's knowledge. If we add to that scenario that while the researching partner is online here, the unaware partner walks into the room and asks innocently enough 'what are you doing?'..... if the response is 'nothing' or a quick click on the 'x'..... now we're into lieing and hiding.

A huge part of developing trust and keeping it is openness and honesty, that when I ask 'what are you doing?' I get an honest answer, one that doesn't leave me wondering or doubtful. The latter inhibit trust. IMHO. It would be at that point that I would feel it's time to have a discussion about my research.