What Defines Cheating?

[GirlieZ]

Cheating simply having sex without your parnter's knowledge and consent.

Zgirl

[BradAndJanet]

Originally posted by GirlieZ
Cheating simply having sex without your parnter's knowledge and consent.

Zgirl

OK, now define sex....

-B

[De and Ci]

Originally posted by BradAndJanet
OK, now define sex....

-B

You know...getting naked and doing the NASTY!!!!

HAVING sex with out consent is what cheating is?

For me, if you are plotting to have sex without your partners consent is also cheating. You dont have to commit the actual act before you cross that line.
At least thats the way I look at it.

[hmr]

Cheating?... Vegas Lee and Fun_pair pretty much sum it up!
Being deceitful or disrespectful by withholding pertinent information is just as much cheating, to me, as flaunting it in my face! Relationships are based on honesty and openess. How much of each is a personal matter, but I would consider any corespondence, meeting, etc., without my knowledge cheating. Not that I need to know everything that was said, just that it occured, or was to occur.

In other words, anything done behind the other's back, to me is considered cheating. Why else would it be done in secret?

mrs hmr

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by hmr
In other words, anything done behind the other's back, to me is considered cheating. Why else would it be done in secret?

mrs hmr

I wish ya'll could have joined us in chat last night. It was interesting. Some people emphasize the physical aspects of cheating while others are more along the lines of the mental aspects. Obviously, it means different things to many with some aspects of the same for many.

Wrnakedru summed it up best for me when she said that she feels that each couple has to define for themselves what is cheating and not cheating. I have a hard time understanding that two people share absolutely everything - every thought - every occurrence in their daily lives. Further, certain situations that might occur I would not share with my partner for fear of hurting that person.

One of the scenarios I posed to WR...and yes, we've discussed this on the phone at length...

Say you are out of town and a convention...you have 1-2 drinks. Normally, you can drink 4-5-6 and be sober. However, on this night, you get knee-walking drunk - maybe due to not eating all day, being exhausted, medication...whatever. You wake up the next morning in bed with someone else. You are wracked with guilt. You would have NEVER intentionally done that. You swear to all the gods that you will NEVER drink again and you don't.

OK...do you go home and tell your partner about it? Knowing full well that this is going to cause severe pain and anguish for your partner? That trust (or lack of) will be an intrusive element in all your remaining years together? Or even that your relationship/marriage may end as a result. Do you want your partner to sit there and wonder for the rest of his/her life every time you go out of town? All of those types of things....

Technically, this is cheating. But how do you handle it? Do you inflict that pain on someone else with your honesty or do you keep this information to yourself?

I certainly don't know the answer and for many of us, I suppose it would be a tough decision. And I wonder if it wouldn't be even tougher for swingers since their relationships are generally rooted in openness.

Just thoughts and wonderings...- EBF

[hmr]

EBF, you pose a very thought provoking question. Quite a dilema!
The original question was what do we consider cheating. Those are my feelings on cheating, though in the case you pose I don't know how I would handle it either.

I would hope to be able to confront my partner with the truth, but one can never know these things until they are put in that position. As you said, do I want to cause severe pain? That is something I would hope would not occur by bringing it into the open and not attempting to hide it. Again, that is something one can never know until faced with it.

Yes I would feel hurt, let down and maybe even angry for a while, but I can't believe if my spouse came to me with something of this nature I would loose my confidence in him. Being honest is more important than anything else. He already has my permission to have sex with others, so why should it be a big deal to let me know!? All I ask is that he not sneak around. Be upfront, that way I always know(and feel) I am the one he loves!

I think it could be worse if held as a secret. Who's to say, down the road sometime it wouldn't be thrown out in the heat of an arguement. Brought up when noone is thinking clearly, or willing to understand or forgive!!?? Now that could really be a quagmire!

Who knows, if ever faced with that difficult decision, I may change my mind and lie like a dog.

mrs hmr

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by hmr
Who knows, if ever faced with that difficult decision, I may change my mind and lie like a dog.

mrs hmr

Now that's what I call honesty! And, I suspect, where many of us would find ourselves...not lying, but not knowing exactly what we would do in a given set of circumstances. So very many variables.

OK....so another question that was actually the basis of my thought process...if you don't mnd?

We have several participants on the board - married. Have said their wives have no interest in swinging. Yet they come here, participate, make "friends" with all of us, never any hint of trying to "hook-up" with anyone. Essentially, 100% straight down the line. Assuming these wives don't know their husbands spend parts of each day or week here, and assuming they would feel some sort of displeasure if they did know...would that be considered cheating in any respect? The consensus seems to be that if it is in any way deceitful, it is cheating. I contend we all have aspects of ourselves and personalities that others know nothing about. Including our very most significant others. Further, I believe a place like this to come to for reading and friendship might even prevent problems in some relationships. Kind of the "my place" thing, if you understand what I mean.

Comments?

- EBF

PS: in a few days, I'm going to be really busy and promise to stop posting this type of stuff. Honest.

[flassh]

"Further, I believe a place like this to come to for reading and friendship might even prevent problems in some relationships. Kind of the "my place" thing, if you understand what I mean."

Elusive BiFem, Your wording above represents one of the more profound messages, which I have read, here on the board.

Furthermore, using the example of not telling a partner about a failing is showing that you do care and preserving the human relationship. To intendedly deceive though is a much darker subject and can never be unaddressed. Nevertheless, I think it is fair to ask of those who have over-simplified their definitions of cheating, deceit etc: How do you expect your trusted friend or partner to grow? Making mistakes and getting into situations that teach about our humanity will make us stronger and more interesting. Is cheating a goal to be reached at the "bottom of the barrel" of your relationships? Over-simplifying is like shutting ones eyes to a challenge and with such absolutes there may be no room to grow. There is another caveat here: Do we always need to learn by trial and error? NOPE! That is why couples need to talk openly and honestly about their feelings and not shut down to the possible risks associated with choices and outcomes.
I could think of many examples, but I won't here and now.

And again, Flassh


"I shut my eyes in order to see." Gauguin

[yawanna]

I'm a big fan of changing rules that are there just to be a rule and serve no useful purpose or get in the way of the ultimate goal. I'm constantly reassessing and making changes in every job I have. I will 'bend' a rule making an executive decision and shouldering the responsibility for any fallout, and the bending is the precursor to making the change official. It usually requires the consent of the rest of management so it takes some time usually.

I think rules need to be made flexible, depending upon the situation and parties involved. So I'd rather call them guidelines - not so hard and fast.

Cheating is defined, in a sexual context which is what I think this thread is ultimately addressing, as a couple's bottom line on acceptable behaviour and activities for each other and their relationship as a whole regarding sex or the potential thereof. These may develop over time as the relationship grows, or they may be set out right at the beginning, maybe due to past experiences with other relationships. It's what each needs to feel safe and cared for and respected.

Participating on a swingers message board for the purposes of engaging in discussion with swingers, has that potential for sex, whether acted upon or not.

In my own marriage, our goal is total honesty and openness with each other about every aspect of our lives. This doesn't mean we recount blow by blow every little thing we do every single day. It means we share with the other anything that person might need to know about, either now or later. Some things are urgent....some not so and may never become urgent. Families, finances, friendships, children, work...all those areas are shared territory and thus could or do have an effect on the other. Our goal is that the two of us are closer to each other than with any other person on earth. That forms our bottom line.

Having a clear, understood, agreed to bottom line is crucial when participating in swinger activities, as we are now dealing with sex. Rec sex or intimate with each other sex, it still can become a vulnerability if not handled well. Cheating is not an issue for us as we have built that total trust and mutual respect that can only come, IMHO, by sharing our day to day lives in a way that I or he wouldn't be surprised to find the other was involved in any activity, conversation, thought process, fear, concern, or online dialoque via email or a message board or chat room, that one didn't know about.

We each have our own computers, our own MSN messenger, our own email contacts...some shared, many not. We also give each other quick updates on who we spoke with and what was discussed....even if it's just to say 'I talked to X and Y today and they're doing fine.'. Then if X and Y come online with him...he's up to speed. It's just courtesy and part of our strong bond. It also eliminates a lot of potential confusion and stopping what you're doing to explain to Mr why so and so is messaging him and asking him about an upcoming party LOL. It's much easier to make the communication an ongoing thing

[Buck]

OK. I am one of those persons who participates on this board without my spouse's knowledge. I came across the board by accident and found it to be interesting. I started a couple of threads early on asking for advice as to how to understand my feelings and my relationship with my spouse. Numerous kind people responded and what I learned mainly was to respect my wife's opinions and don't push her into anything which I haven't done. I also have not tried to "pick up" anyone on this board or anything like that, but I have developed a dialogue with a person or two which have been very helpful and cordial. It's sort of like confiding in a good friend. Is that cheating? How can it be bad when it has actually helped me to understand my feelings better and realize that I don't need to "push" my spouse into anything she may be uncomfortable with? Should I quit participating on this board? Am I viewed as a cheater? I can proudly say that in over 20 years of marriage I have never been to bed with anyone but my wife so I am not a cheater in my eyes. We're never too old to learn and I consider my participation on this board more of a learning process than a "cheating" process. So, I guess my message is if you view me as a cheater so be it, but I have to live with my self and my conscience is clear in that respect. Thanks for letting me have my say.

[Elusive BiFem]

No, I don't think that any man or woman that comes here with openness and honesty is cheating in any way. I believe I said that in so many words ealier when I mentioned having a "my place" sort of place. Further, I think that by being here and participating, many people have probably saved themselves and their spouses some significant grief in the long run as they have come to learn, as you mentioned Buck, that the worst thing in the world is to try to push a spouse into swinging if they don't want to go there. There are no real rules for swinging, and it really helps to be able to dialogue with others on the subject. Me thinks! You and others have had golden opportunities to see how hurtful swinging (or pushing the subject) could be to ones spouse. Isn't that a valuable lesson in and of itself?

Also, you and others (Sexhounddog comes to mind) have shared your learned knowledge with other men asking the same questions you all asked when new members. That probably carries more weight, coming from ya'll, than it would from many of us. And I'm certainly not saying this applies to you, but it wouldn't suprise me to learn that living somewhat vicariously through this board has prevented some cheating or the thought of it. Again, I believe we all have thoughts and things that we don't necessarily share with our SO's and as we've seen, people define cheating individually.

Which takes me back to what wrnakedru said...each couple has to define it for themselves.

- EBF

[Alura]

If Mrs. Alura got drunk at a trade show and fucked someone, the thing that would surprise me most would be that she had gotten drunk, since she has never done that in her life.

We'd probably laugh it off, since it would not threaten our marriage.

If she met somebody and thought she might like to fuck him, she'd call me and ask if it was okay. I'd probably tell her to make sure she doesn't get any diseases or emotional attachment and tell me about it later.

If, on the other hand, she were meeting someone for tea, with no sex involved at all, but the possibility of a relationship might come up, I'd be devastated.

Mrs. Alura here - There is sex for fun, there is sex for control (rape) and there is making love. We Aluras are not threatened by sex for fun, whatever the context.

Alura

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by Alura

If, on the other hand, she were meeting someone for tea, with no sex involved at all, but the possibility of a relationship might come up, I'd be devastated.
Alura

You know...leave it to you two to come real close to the whole thing I've been driving at. I think I'll just move to Tulsa. I need to be around some of this sage wisdom.

OK...I'll explain my thoughts on this just a little bit. I got interested the other day stemming from what yawanna said in another thread. In the meantime, I'm not married and haven't been for many years (half my life?). Therefore, I haven't had the opportunity to develop the type of relationship that many couples have developed - one based on trust, honesty...those sorts of things. And since I haven't had that opportunity, I don't always understand things the way others might.

Frankly, when someone says they share EVERYTHING with their spouse, I have difficulty with that concept. Is it me because I am a rather private person in some respects? Or is it because I've never been involved in such a long-term relationship? I don't know, tho' I tend to believe it is more a "me" thing.

The other thing I wonder...when people say, as yawanna did

It means we share with the other anything that person might need to know about, either now or later.

I can't help but wonder...well, you are deciding what that person needs to know. Not the person. What I might think my spouse needs to know might be quite different than what he thinks he needs to know. I can't quite reconcile that just now.

But another thing I want to add separate and apart from cheating - in a way...the comment was made by Buck in response to some of the posts that he and others might be "cheating" just by their presence here without their spouses knowledge. Same and similar...for me, I've learned a lot about marriage here...what it takes, what it requires, how to problem solve certain issues. Apply that same thing to a spouse that hangs out here and takes that knowledge home to continue a happy non-swinging relationship. What is so bad about that? How can you say it is cheating when in fact their presence and participation on this board may have strengthened the relationship?

- EBF

[yawanna]

I used the word 'potential'.... as Buck says, he has no intention of going further than talking and he would never do anything to hurt his wife. That's his call.

Just like I decide what my husband needs or may need to know if it may have any later effect on him and/or our relationship. That's my call.

Yes...we make decisions regarding our spouses best interests and what information or activities we have that they may need to know.

If keeping the secret involves violating an agreement with the absent spouse, such as she doesn't want him participating on a swingers message board, and he is, then that's cheating I think.

I would be truly hurt if my husband were conversing on a message board and I wasn't aware of it. That would be a 'secret' between us and that will stymie our relationship. He would always know that he's doing something I know nothing about. That would preclude any goal of total honesty and openness, and for us...that's very important. For Buck and others, they seem to have bottom lines and goals that are different from ours.

Everyone makes their own choices for their own reasons, and I don't believe I am one to condemn or condone...it's not my life. As a topic tho, yes.... I have an opinion.