Playing with cheaters

[Thrax]

Here's my take on this, from the single male side of things.

I try to avoid cheaters. It's a moral thing, but I also would like to avoid having a gun in my face, or being involved in some legal brouhaha.

My first potential cheating encounter occurred in 2002/2003 (I first dipped my toes into the lifestyle in 2000). I had played with single females and couples at a Pgh-area club (now-defunct) and I got a call at one point from the club owners that a woman was interested in meeting me. I called her and she told me that she had visited the club and played before, but she was interested in meeting single males at the club or elsewhere on a more regular basis. Her husband had an illness which prevented him from satisfying her sexually (so she said) and she decided to look outside of her marriage for sex, although she was devoted to him. I told her that I did not like the traditional cuckold (humiliation of the husband) deal, but if she would let me talk to him and confirm that he was sexually-incapacitated and approved of her looking outside of their bedroom for sex, then I'd be interested. She said that that was NOT possible, and if I didn't agree to see her then I wouldn't know what I was missing. (Well, actually, yes, I have an idea what I might be missing.) I was going to ask her to call me after she divorced her husband, but then I thought better of it.

A year or so after that, a woman IM'd me and we had a deliciously provocative conversation. It turned out she was married...with kids...and she was interested in exploring something without her husband knowing. Bye!

In the summer of 2006 I went to a house party sponsored by Couple A at the house of Couple B. I wasn't really interested in most of the women there except the female of Couple B. I did not play with either Couple A or B. A couple of weeks later I got a phone call from the male of Couple B. He said they were interested in a first-time encounter with a single male and they picked me. (Yay for me! I had enjoyed talking to both of them and his house was a swingers-party dream: playroom basement with sex-swing, large indoor pool, outside hot tub, big deck, and private, gigantic backyard.)

I told him things we had to discuss (condoms, no means no, etc.) and just after I had decided "YES" he mentioned, "Oh, she's married to someone else, but I'm not married. Is that a problem?" Yes, for me it was a problem. I told him if I can talk to her husband about this, to get his okay on it, or if her marital situation changes, then I'd be interested. He was very pleasant about my declining their invite.

About six months later the female of the couple called me and wanted to know if I had changed my mind about meeting with her and the guy-who-was-not-her hubby. I asked her if she was still married to her husband. "Yes." And I told her that unless he was okay with it, it was "no go." She (politely) signed off.

Just my experiences.

Thrax

[Ave Satanas]

It's rather funny that I found this poll tonight because I'm scheduled for a foursome this weekend that had to be put off because the other guy involved is on the verge of breaking up with a girlfriend but has yet to do it.

Not as bad as a someone cheating in a marriage, but in any case you're asking for drama by playing with the unfaithful.

[amylev41]

Originally Posted by shoreguy

Satisfy my curiosity: Is there a difference between how cheating married women are viewed versus cheating married men? Consider LTR equal to marriage if you please.

Absolutely NO to cheaters

[VegasLee]

I am going to admit that I am personally very disappointed in the results of this pole.

318 people have responded as of this writing.

29.25% of the people approve of married women cheating and are willing to play with them. In contrast only 11.95% feel it is alright to play with a cheating man.

Personally, I don't feel it is alright to play with anyone that we know is cheating but my view means nothing. All are welcome to do what they feel is right for them.

Is it because there are so few single women in this Lifestyle that many feel it is alright to play with any women if she is willing even though she is cheating?

So much is preached here about truth and honesty in the lifestyle yet so many are willing to give that up for a shot at another women. We all stress the importance of our relationships yet a very large percentage of people are willing to play with cheating women. It appears that many don't practice what they preach.

Of all the threads and polls I have seen over the years here and elsewhere this one has me thinking less of the people in the lifestyle then any other information I have ever seen before.

I know many are going to say it is not their problem, they are not the ones cheating. Your right, you did not cheat. Kind of like robbing the bank, you did not rob it, you just drove the getaway car.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel I am any better then anyone else that posts here or that I am holier then thou. I am pointing out there are some serious double standards being lived in this lifestyle by many though and it is not something I am personally comfortable with.

Not only am I not comfortable playing with cheaters of either sex I am not comfortable playing with people that feel it is alright to play with the cheaters. If they will do that what else will they do?

[amylev41]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

I am going to admit that I am personally very disappointed in the results of this pole.

318 people have responded as of this writing.

29.25% of the people approve of married women cheating and are willing to play with them. In contrast only 11.95% feel it is alright to play with a cheating man.

Personally, I don't feel it is alright to play with anyone that we know is cheating but my view means nothing. All are welcome to do what they feel is right for them.

Is it because there are so few single women in this Lifestyle that many feel it is alright to play with any women if she is willing even though she is cheating?

So much is preached here about truth and honesty in the lifestyle yet so many are willing to give that up for a shot as another women. We all stress the importance of our relationships yet a very large percentage of people are willing to play with cheating women. It appears that many don't practice what they preach.

Of all the threads and polls I have seen over the years here and elsewhere this one has me thinking less of the people in the lifestyle then any other information I have ever seen before.

I know many are going to say it is not their problem, they are not the ones cheating. Your right, you did not cheat. Kind of like robbing the bank, you did not rob it, you just drove the getaway car.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel I am any better then anyone else that posts here or that I am holier then thou. I am pointing out there are some serious double standards being lived in this lifestyle by many though and it is not something I am personally comfortable with.

Not only am I not comfortable playing with cheaters of either sex I am not comfortable playing with people that feel it is alright to play with the cheaters. If they will do that what else will they do?

Just my take , I feel its wrong for either male or female to use the lifestyle as a means to be unfaithful to their unknowing partners , If you feel the need to cheat , as like its you're only recourse ...you should just become single and be fair to your partner .
but just my oppinion ...Amy

[good times]

I agree with you completely Lee, but I suspect that this poll is skewed a lot by the fact that their are many non-swingers that frequent this site.

[Spoomonkey]

I've posted elsewhere that I think it is an indication of the "supply and demand" thing. I agree with you - that doesn't justify it - but I think that may be the reason.

Not only that, there is quite a bit of "dislike" for single men that doesn't exist in equal measure for single women.

I think this skews people's values.

Spoomonkey

[Tia Vampire]

I voted that I would not play with a cheater. My mind tells me no, but my body tells me yes. I played with a cheater without knowing. I thought that he was just a single guy. The DJ's wife told me that the wife came there once to let the host know not to let hubby in because he was married and yes he has been banned to enter, but I have seen him twice since the incident.. That man knew how to make a woman feel good. Because of what I knew about him, I did not play with him after being asked by him. I really wanted to though. I wonder after these past nine monthe since we seen him last if we were out to a house party and he was there and we did not find another couple we were attracted to, I wonder if I would give in to my desires.

[Thrax]

I'm not the best at math, but I noticed that adding the poll percentages gives a result of over 122%. I already voted the fourth option, so I can't go back and experiment: can a person select more than one poll option? That would explain the 100+%.

I think GoodTime's suspicions about the data being skewed by non-swinging visitors' votes is valid. But, of course, polls on boards like this are like any Internet-based polls, they're done for fun or to start a discussion; they have no safeguards to assure any scientific validity.

We don't know who is voting or what their motives are. I suspect most of the active members of this Board tried to answer honestly, since it's an anonymous poll, but we don't know that for sure. And when we consider non-active members that vote in these polls, we're in a quandary. We don't know how much they know about the lifestyle and what they know about what might or might not be considered acceptable behavior by active members on this Board, or in the lifestyle as a whole. And are the active Board members' opinions typical of the majority of swingers? That might be true, but we don't know that for sure. And, are there significant numbers of poll respondents who just vote contrary to accepted behavior just for fun? Teh Intertubes is a dangerous place to run a poll.

Still, I agree with Vegas Lee, even if all the above has been considered, to me it is disconcerting that there appears to be a large amount of people who approve of cheating if it meets their sexual needs, regardless of how it might eventually play out. I'm usually a "hands-off" person when it comes to other people's choices, but cheating on a spouse/SO -- reneging on a commitment one has made -- makes me feel...icky.

There are risks to practicing the lifestyle. Most of those risks are related to physical health (i.e., STDs), but we all know that there are emotional and societal risks as well. IMO, cheaters magnify that risk. But since this lifestyle stuff is supposed to be a pleasureable hobby I recommend a section from the Hippocratic Oath (traditionally taken by physicians pertaining to the ethical practice of medicine): Διαιτήμασί τε χρήσομαι ἐπ' ὠφελείῃ καμνόντων κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν, ἐπὶ δηλήσει δὲ καὶ ἀδικίῃ εἴρξειν.

Just in case your Greek is rusty, that translates to: I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I think you all are creative enough to modify that statement to apply to swinging, the lifestyle, or whatever you want to call it. My view is let's have fun in a responsible way, similar to the medical admonition based on the Hippocratic Oath: "Primum non nocere" ("First, do no harm").

Have I always been responsible in my swinging? I'm sorry to say, no. I've made mistakes; I'm a work in progress. But personally, I don't want the problems of swinging with cheaters, either.

Thrax

[good times]

Originally Posted by Thrax

I'm not the best at math, but I noticed that adding the poll percentages gives a result of over 122%. I already voted the fourth option, so I can't go back and experiment: can a person select more than one poll option? That would explain the 100+%.

yes, it is a multiple choice poll.

[NumbskullsX2]

All ethics are situational.

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by NumbskullsX2

All ethics are situational.

Help me understand this. I was a business major. My brain hurt even before I got to any of the philosophy stuff.

If all ethics are situational, then there are married individuals (or people in "committed" relationships) who can disregard their commitments of sexual monogamy to their respective spouses/SOs, and they still can be considered as NOT being cheaters in the world of swinging?

Please explain.

Thanks.

Thrax

[two4youinswva]

Originally Posted by VegasLee

Is it because there are so few single women in this Lifestyle that many feel it is alright to play with any women if she is willing even though she is cheating?

Yes, this is exactly what I believe the issue is. It's all about supply and demand. If single women (especially single bi women) were plentiful, you would see close to the same standard that is applied to single men.

Originally Posted by VegasLee

So much is preached here about truth and honesty in the lifestyle yet so many are willing to give that up for a shot at another women. We all stress the importance of our relationships yet a very large percentage of people are willing to play with cheating women. It appears that many don't practice what they preach.

There are about 400 replies to the poll so far.
Just taking a wild ass guess, there are maybe 100 folks that regularly post on here every day, giving opinions on such matters. I may be off a bit, but like I said, it's just a guess.

Almost all of those that have posted about truth/honesty, and playing with cheaters voice their opposition very strongly and in large quantities. Ever notice what happens to the folks that introduce themselves on the site as "married but looking for some side action"? They are put in their place almost immediately (Nothing wrong with this in my opinion. We don't care for cheaters either).

So, my thought is there are a lot of people lurking, or not posting on that particular subject, because they do not share our opinion on who is and who isn't fair game when playtime comes around, and don't want to deal with the hassle of defending the position on here.

[NumbskullsX2]

Originally Posted by Thrax

If all ethics are situational, then there are married individuals (or people in "committed" relationships) who can disregard their commitments of sexual monogamy to their respective spouses/SOs, and they still can be considered as NOT being cheaters in the world of swinging?

No, it's still cheating, it doesn't matter why they do it. Couples who knowingly participate with cheaters are "co-conspirators" even if they feel they are justified in doing it.

In criminal law, "conspiracy" to commit a crime carries almost the same penalty as committing the crime itself. So does "possession of stolen property" I don't see why it should be any different for somebody who "possesses" a cheater or "conspires" with him (or her) to cheat. BUT.......if my wife suddenly lost all interest in having sex, or in me altogether, and another woman offered to take her place in the bedroom, I might take her up on it. She would probably do the same if I stopped courting her.

That's what I mean by "situational ethics"

[stu]

Originally Posted by Shaheena

Well, so far I have heard everyone saying they would not get involved with cheaters. I think a lot of people are hesitant, but there are times that my hubby and I would not have a problem in playing with someone who is in the lifestyle where the other half isn't. I know of several men and women who are sexually deprived because of the sudden religious beliefs of their wife or husband. They didn't have this when they first got married, and now they are stuck in a relationship where they still love the person, but are having no sex. Who can blame someone for searching elsewhere for some pleasure without any strings attached? The way I figure it, in a situation like that.. the one depriving has really paved the way for the cheating. What else can they expect? It's human nature to take care of our sexual needs and if they are not going to supply the demand, then the partner will look elsewhere. At least they are only looking for the pleasure aspect and not a relationship. If their relationship breaks up, it's not because they cheated, it's because their relationship was going down the toilet way before that. I am not for breaking up a relationship by any means, but it's also not my choice to make. Life is too short to be deprived of the things that make us happy. I guess when you stare death in the face it really tends to wake you up and make you realize that life is all about being happy and enjoying the pleasures life has to offer while you can. If someone has to go elsewhere to find that happiness, then I will be happy to supply that for them with no strings attached. I'm happy with my husband and love him more than life, and I know we have a great relationship. So we don't have an issue of someone wanting to spend a night or weekend of pleasure with us whether they are a "cheater" or not. I just had to put in my 2 cents worth here

Hugs & kisses & licks!
Shaheena

Its more than two cents worth...you do have a point, though we put our stamp on' Won't play with cheaters'. Yes in a given situation, may be we would.