When starting to swing turns to "cheating"...

My boyfriend and I are together for two years -- both very open and adventurous and loving and great communication. The foundation of our relationship (we are planning to get married as well) has allowed us to venture into the lifestyle -- starting with MFM situations, and sharing our fantasies of moving toward meeting some couples and eventaully letting me explore my desire for a bi experience. We are taking things slowly towards this however as I have some issues with jealousy and have not been comfortable with it yet. He knows, understands, and supports this, and we have talked about the reality of it maybe even being a year or longer before I am ready for this step.

I am the more verbal and outgoing of the two of us, so I have generally been the one who meets new people (friends to play or friends in general), starts the relationship and sustains it. One of our fantasies that came to life has been me having encounters with other men (on a few occassions) and then coming home to him and reliving it with him (very very hot and a super turn-on for both of us) as we make love. He has complete and total access to all the contacts I have made, he chats with my potential playmates as well - and we both answer e-mails and things of that sort.

Now -- however, I am worried that this "free" lifestyle we are embracing is leading to some potential problems. He knows how I feel about him having contact with other women (in terms of my coming to grips with some jealousy and self-esteem issues) and has assured me it is not a problem and he will wait until I am ready and that I will pick any woman he plays with (i.e. in a couple situation). He has assured me that he will not have chats with women that I am not aware of, and I have made it clear that I don't feel comfortable with him talking sexually with a woman unless it is a couple we are corresponding with or talking to, and then we are doing it together as a COUPLE.

But now I have discovered that he is apparently doing just that -- I found that he has some "buddies" on his instant messenger list. And reading the profiles of these women -- well, let's just say they are not interested in playing online backgammon!

Is this happening because I am being "ünfair" in terms of not allowing him yet to play with other women????? I don't think so as we discussed upon entering the lifestyle that it was not for "more partners"necessarily but for sharing things with each other. Yet, how can the man who loves me and wants to marry me be doing this to me? I feel as if the openness of our emerging lifestyle has led to this. I am thinking of stopping all further explorations and putting ALL our fantasies and plans on hold because he has betrayed my trust.

If I discuss this with him, well, he will know that I looked in his IM account, etc., so then will HE lose trust for me? To complicate matters further, we will be physically apart for about a month due to some necessary work travel. So its something I need to wait and discuss in a month, but in the meantime..... I WORRY... will he put some things into place while we are apart?

so its a dilemna and I guess I am just searching for some help...

thanks

[FromFlorida]

After reading your post several times, I am still having a problem giving any merit to your 'problem'. However the words "double standard" come to mind.

I don't know, maybe I am missing something here.

Mike

[Tanman aka Mike and Marie]

Sounds like more discussion needs to take place, how is it O-K for you to have something and not him ?

Swinging soft or otherwise is an activity for a couple and one or more other people. Everyone (ideally) should be in agreement with what happens and be basically willing to share each other(my opinion).

The same thing that has you excited , but he has been forbidden to do...for now, has gottem him excited also.

More discussion is definitely needed, especially before you get married. You don't want to start your life together this way(we have been married 22 years).

Everyone needs to be open and comfortable with whatever happens.

Good Luck!

[ 05-17-2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Tanman aka Mike and Marie ]

I think you have misunderstood me. I don't have any particular need or desire to play with any other man/men. We found that expressing our sexuality as a COUPLE and entering into playing with couples eventaully, and going to clubs -- the easiest entre was via the MFM scenarios.

Isnt the lifestyle all about choices and what is agreed upon by BOTH partners as they share these things? We talked and discussed AD NAUSEUM.... we made our "rules" - we dissected possibilities and AGREED upon what he and I were comfortable with. Now HE has started to change the RULES without telling me. His changing the RULES behind MY BACK -- I am seeing it as cheating.

Perhaps a better way to ask my question would have been -- does swinging equate with playing with fire -- dont stand too close or you will get burned??

[CanadianCouple]

quote:

---

Originally posted by <NICEGIRL>:


Perhaps a better way to ask my question would have been -- does swinging equate with playing with fire -- dont stand too close or you will get burned??

---

Not on it's own merits, no. Trouble occurs when one partner is either being less than honest, or decides to subsequently buck the rules you both agreed on. We've met several couples who've been swinging for many years and are closer than ever to each other. VERY loyal and completely dedicated to their spouse, and would never even remotely entertain any suggestions of straying behind the other's back.

We can't really discern whether or not this is true in your case, but sometimes people will agree to certain set boundries, with the intentions of going beyond them as you both get more involved. This is occasionally the case when dealing with other couples as well. For instance, you and your partner may be adament about same-room swinging only, and the other couple can agree to it, only to try and get you into seperate rooms somewhere down the road. This happened to us, and unfortunately led to the demise of an otherwise satisfying sexual relationship. This is why it's SO important to set limits and stick to them, both with other couples and with each other.

Trust and respect. Those are the key elements to a successful and enhancing swinging experience.

Dan and Janette

[4sum]

Nicegirl,

I guess an easy answer to your question is "Yes, you are playing with fire". Any time you contemplate intimacy with persons outside your current relationship it is bound to create concern (which is healthy), and is usually dispersed by communication. Although you guys have discussed ad nauseum every aspect, there are obviously things that perhaps weren't clearly understood by both parties.

As the circumstance has been described, you are in a bit of a quandary because if you bring up the subject he'll know you "went behind his back" to some degree. However you probably also feel that he's going behind yours by talking to other women.

You are jumping to conclusions to assume that its "cheating" on his part. Although that is a possibility, it certainly isn't the only one. Sometimes it's easier to talk to another person outside the relationship to gain an objective perspective. But you won't know that unless you talk to him about it.

He should know you well enough to know that you're concerned about how this would be construed, and that if you were indeed suspicious that you'd do something about it (which you have by looking at his buddy list). Might as well get it all out in the open.

Just don't forget the word COMPROMISE. It's a really good tool for everyone getting something enjoyable out of extending relationship. What you are going through is fairly typical of the challenges that you will be presented with when you swing. Rest assured each couple works it out in their own way. But keep in mind, there isn't such a thing as a "no risk" situation in swinging. But not talking honestly and openly about them doesn't ever make them go away.

I think the most important trait that all couples who've been at it for a while have is that they know how to deal with these things before they become deal breakers. Everyone has issues, but not everyone who tries this knows how to resolve them. Knowing what turns your mate on the most, and then having the courage to indulge them, sometimes can be a big leap. The longer you wait to talk about it the harder it will be to do so.

Good luck!

[JustAskJulie]

My first question is Why did you go into his buddy list? Did something happen to give you reason not to trust him?

If by telling him that you went into his list and showing him that you didn't trust him (with or without reason) makes him trust you less, so be it. That's the way it goes. But you do need to confront him and ask him what the story is.

The fact that he is talking to women online without your knowledge does not constitute cheating. But you won't know what it constitutes until you talk to him. And I wouldn't wait, even if it means a long phone conversation or IMing session. Granted it would be preferable to discuss this face to face BUT that option is not available to you at this moment and waiting will only make you feel worse and doubt him more.

Thank you all for your input and suggestions --- I have always found the posters on this site to be incredibly insightful and intelligent. I think I do need to find a way to talk about this ASAP before I let it get the best of me.

[Quin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FromFlorida:
After reading your post several times, I am still having a problem giving any merit to your 'problem'. However the words "double standard" come to mind.

I don't know, maybe I am missing something here.

Mike

---

I don't think you are, Mike. Actually there are a few problems going on here, IMHO. First being her going out and doing whatever with men (even if it's been once or twenty times) then telling him about it...but yet not allowing him the same indulgence with women because she has some jealousy issues. Hello??? If there's any type of jealousy issues on any partner's part, then any venture outside the relationship isn't going to be healthy for the relationship not to mention that while we all would like to have our cake and eat it also, to deny a partner that same piece of cake is just not fair. Alas the double standard. She's taking something from the relationship, something that she isn't and can't give back due to her jealousy. The addage, 'I will never ask of you what I'm not willing to give myself' is missing here.
And she wants to approve of his female partner when and if they ever take that direction? Naw, old dude better wake up and smell the coffee. Lots of problems here.

Quin

[JTswing]

Quote"My boyfriend and I are together for two years -- both very open and adventurous and loving and great communication. The foundation of our relationship (we are planning to get married as well) has allowed us to venture into the lifestyle -- starting with MFM situations"

Well the first thing I see a problem with is the fact that your statement is a little off with the "both very open and adveturous". From the rest of your post it sounds like your man is, but you have a problem with the "foundation of your relationship". I would assume that what you mean by that is the standard:honesty, trust and commitment. He obviously trusts you to enjoy physical interaction with others and it would appear that you are too insecure in your relationship to even allow him to simply talk to other women. I'm not cutting on you, but I would stop any swinging activities until you have a discussion with your man. Also more importantly look inside yourself to see if this is really something you should be doing, or will it lead to a bad end to your relationship.

[sccple29073]

NICE GIRL

Everyone here has given you great advice regarding your situation. After reading your post i wanted to make a comment, because I feel i may be able to give you some insight onto the other side.

Yu mentioned that you guys initially talked about swinging and decided to start off with MFM situations, but then only spoke of you going out with men, while he is at home. have you guys actually had any MFM situations?

My hubby and a I are in a similar situation. We have started out with FMF situations and planned to go from there. However after 2 years, we are still at the FMF situation and my hubby still feels uncomfy with me being with another guy.
i wanted to be with another woman and he was agreeable. After my first experience, we discussed him being involved and i was agreeable because it was a fantasy of mine.

After about a year, being that a single bi/female looking for a couple is rare. We spoke again about being with a couple. That was a year ago and he is still not comfortable with that.

Now I only was interested in FF, FMF, swapping to enhance our relationship and have no care to sleep with another guy. However, like others have mentioned I feel it has been one sided and so we spoke again about it a few weeks ago and we decided that he would not be involved with other woman anymore.

Now where the other view point comes in... It seems to me he is allowing you to be involved with other men in hopes that this will "talk" you into allowing him to do the same.

You guys definately need to stop and talk.

my 2 cents...

[frisson]

Most couples find that a "swinging alone" relationship is tough to handle. It has way many more pitfalls than conventional swinging with both partners physically present. Probably most couples in this forum, though happy and secure, will admit that it's more than they want to tackle. To make it work requires absolute trust, which clearly isn't present in your relationship now.

You two seem to have settled into this arrangement as a way of avoiding your own issues. Rather than do that, maybe you should confront your issues and overcome them--better for your relationship, way better for you. If you overcome your jealousy and self-esteem issues, then you may be ready for more conventional swinging, which is far safer and less complicated than what you're trying to pull off now.

You will know that you're getting there if you are ready to give up the idea of choosing your partner's playmates for him. This is just going to cause resentment and ill will.

[Bettina/ Vladimir]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FromFlorida:
After reading your post several times, I am still having a problem giving any merit to your 'problem'. However the words "double standard" come to mind.

I don't know, maybe I am missing something here.

Mike

---

double standard is not what comes to my mind, i believe "some" men go into the swinging lifestyle agreeing first that its all about the lady in his life and saying "oh no sweetheart i dont want to be with anyone else but you" then later hoping she would be agreeable to allowing him to sleep with someone else, in this case this is not a double standard its just plain ol' sneaky, but if both couples agree from the beginning to share a full swing and then she changes her mind because of jealousies or insecurities that is just wrong and unfair for the man. there are men out there that simply enjoy just seeing their girl with someone else and do not have the need to be with anyone else but his own girl because after all thats what its usually all about,the woman initiating the swing whether its a single swing or a double swing, swinging is not a dating service for men that cant get girls on thier own, this is a mutual understanding between 2 people who love and trust each other.

[WiCouple]

I think that you must not of had much trust in him to start with since you felt that you needed to check up on him! I'm not saying you shouldnt have checked up on him... but this is the wrong thing for you guys to be doing as a couple if you dont have trust in eachother!

Good luck I hope it works out for you both!

[ 06-24-2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: WiCouple ]

[incommunicado]

I would have to agree with everyone that chastized the obvious double standard.

I know most of us set ground rules (essentially, we redifine fidelity) for swinging, but those rules are usually evenly balanced. They don't say, "I get to have all the physical fun and you don't."

"He knows how I feel about him having contact with other women (in terms of my coming to grips with some jealousy and self-esteem issues) and has assured me it is not a problem and he will wait until I am ready and that I will pick any woman he plays with (i.e. in a couple situation). He has assured me that he will not have chats with women that I am not aware of, and I have made it clear that I don't feel comfortable with him talking sexually with a woman unless it is a couple we are corresponding with or talking to, and then we are doing it together as a COUPLE."

To answer your question, "Is this happening because I am being "ünfair" in terms of not allowing him yet to play with other women?????" In my humble opinion? Yes! Forget what you agreed to. You are both human beings with basic human needs. You have open a Pandora's box that lets you have sex with other men or women, with him or by yourself, and he only gets to watch or hear about it. Your rules regarding his behavior, border on "thought police", in the way they restrict his movements. When/if you are ever ready for him to have his fair share, you get to pick the women and it always has to be together. That too, is very unbalanced.

Did he go against the rules? Maybe, a little. But they were rules that were made to be broken. Did he cheat on you? Not by a long shot.

My recommendation as a person who completely understands jealousy and insecurity issues (I dated a lot of girls who thought "Fidelity" was a suburb of Cuba)... stop swinging until you don't need so much control, and until you can handle a more balanced arrangement. If that day never comes, remember that your relationship comes first, chalk the whole thing up to experience, and be content to have sex with one another exclusively. Lots of people do it that way, you'll be just fine.

That's my soap box.

-Incommunicado

p.s. Why were you going through his buddy list again?