Redefining Fidelity

incommunicado · 04-14-2003, 06:43 AM

I am noticing, yet again, a bunch of posts asking discussing impropriety on the part of one partner or another and asking the question, "did he/she cheat?"

I find it very interesting how common it is amongst swingers to "redefine fidelity". That is, to come up with new rules that define cheating/not cheating, now that they are sharing sexual intimacy with other people. And there seems to be a very strong need to establish these boundaries.

While I can understand establishing rules for physical and emotional health (i.e., safe sex, no seperate swinging, no falling in love), I can't help but feel that the concept of cheating is outdated in a swinging household. To me, the physical and psychological act of cheating have always been one and the same. If sexual fidelity is promised, once someone breaks that rule, they have cheated. However, once my wife had sex with another man with me present (and not present), the concept of cheating went away and the act itself could never hurt me again---Even if she broke a rule.

Swinging puts you in a mindset where sexual interaction, from courtship to culmination, is acceptable and I think it's really hard to turn this off sometime---for either partner.

For me, the only way to truly define cheating in our relationship would be if one of us were to get involved with someone else and started pulling away from the other. And, even that goes WAY beyond the concept of cheating.

04-14-2003, 12:30 PM

I would define "cheating" as getting involved with someone behind your spouses back. I dont see how the ability to cheat would disappear after a couple starts swinging. If you do something together, it isnt cheating. I would never want my wife to form an emotional/romantic bond with another man. If she did that, it would of course be without my knowledge because she knows how much that would hurt me. I would definetely call that cheating!

I suppose that if you had an "open marriage" (where either person was free to get involved with anyone they wanted, at any time and on any level), then the idea of cheating would disappear...but I cant see how a marriage like that would last very long.

Roxysbayou · 04-14-2003, 12:56 PM

I agree with Seymore totally. Our rules when decided to enter this lifestyle were...

Nothing emotional/romantic...that's cheating.

No Ex's...to many old feelings...no rekindling flames...lol

Play together...although I have no problem if hubby is away from home and has an encounter as long as he tells me about it, if you hide it...then there must have been more to it...cheating

incommunicado · 04-14-2003, 02:21 PM

I guess it's not so much the deed itself, but what it represents that helps most people define cheating.

For me, again, the word and the deed are inexorably linked. Once you have started swinging, illicit sexual contact can never have the same effect, or bear the same weight of impropriety as it did when you were sexually monogomous.

Is it wrong to break the rules? Sure. Could it be a sign of greater problems or a willingness to take too many liberties? Possibly. Is it a metaphoric "impulse buy" on the part of someone who has had their sexual boundaries broadened and got caught up in the moment? Probably. Can it ever be called cheating again? Not to me.

bill&sabrina · 04-14-2003, 02:47 PM

The dictionary has several definitions of the word Cheat. Depending on how the word is used. Some of them don't relate to cheat the way a swinger would look at it. The one that does relate as we are discussing in this thread: to violate rules dishonestly. Why can't we keep it this simple?

sepacouple · 04-14-2003, 03:29 PM

We are fairly new to this, having done a threesome a couple of times and played around with a couple at a club once in the past couple of years. We are not searching for additional sexual partners but we do go to a club occasionally, mainly to enjoy the atmosphere, and if the mood is right we may be interested in some fooling around with another person/couple.

We feel very strongly that in our situation, intercourse is reserved for each other only and we do not have intercourse with others and that we only play together. In our minds, we are "sharing" each other with someone else we are not going off seperately. To individually have a relationship sexually and/or emotionally with someone else would would be cheating in "our" minds.

We also understand that everyone has thier own opinions and "values" and in this lifestyle it is almost impossible to set a clear cut definition for some things. This is one of those things that each couple needs to decide for themselves what is right or wrong for THEIR relationship.

This is just our opinion of the situation.

Lovers6770 · 04-20-2003, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sepacouple
We are fairly new to this, ...

Hello sepacouple,

Quote:

"... having done a threesome a couple of times and played around with a couple at a club once in the past couple of years. We are not searching for additional sexual partners but we do go to a club occasionally, mainly to enjoy the atmosphere, and if the mood is right we may be interested in some fooling around with another person/couple..."

While I understand the intent of your comments I would suggest to you that you may not be being completely honest with yourself(s) here. It OK to admit that you ARE interested in having experiences with other people, but it is not the FOCUS of your interests just a part of it. I think you may be confussing "expectations" with "interest". Since the two of you, I assume it is an equal decision here, have decided to investigate an "alternative" lifestyle you are "searching for additional sexual partners" per se.

Quote:

..."We feel very strongly that in our situation, intercourse is reserved for each other only and we do not have intercourse with others and that we only play together. In our minds, we are "sharing" each other with someone else..."

We also started out this way. And did so for over 1 1/2 years. In the lifestyle over 3 years now. Eventually we felt comfortable enough to "open up" to more. While I am not saying that this WILL happen to you, but you should be/get prepared for the possibility to occur and try to determine how you want to/will handle/deal with it if/when it does.

Quote:

..." we are not going off seperately. To individually have a relationship sexually and/or emotionally with someone else would would be cheating in "our" minds.

We also understand that everyone has thier own opinions and "values" and in this lifestyle it is almost impossible to set a clear cut definition for some things. This is one of those things that each couple needs to decide for themselves what is right or wrong for THEIR relationship.

This is just our opinion of the situation.

"

I couldn't agree more with you here. We feel the same way.

Sincerely,
Paul & Kalin

sepacouple · 04-20-2003, 11:31 PM

Thanks for your observations and comments. As you pointed out, even when you think you've thought and talked things out, another persons observations can be helpful.

We take it from your post that you have moved past the stage that we are at. Would you mind sharing how you decided to go the next step.

Thanks

Lovers6770 · 04-21-2003, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sepacouple
Thanks for your observations and comments. As you pointed out, even when you think you've thought and talked things out, another persons observations can be helpful.

We take it from your post that you have moved past the stage that we are at. Would you mind sharing how you decided to go the next step.

Thanks

I'm glad to see that you took it in the positive way it was ment. If you want to know more read the 7/10/2001 story from Dawn & Joe, our pen name's "Dawn's Pursuit of Pleasure". If you still want more after that I'd be glad to say more about how things have evolved for us since in a different thread.

Sincerely,
Paul & Kalin a.k.a Joe & Dawn

OhioCouple · 04-21-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by incommunicado

I find it very interesting how common it is amongst swingers to "redefine fidelity". That is, to come up with new rules that define cheating/not cheating, now that they are sharing sexual intimacy with other people. And there seems to be a very strong need to establish these boundaries.

While I can understand establishing rules for physical and emotional health (i.e., safe sex, no seperate swinging, no falling in love), I can't help but feel that the concept of cheating is outdated in a swinging household.

Oddly, we have never considered any of the mistakes we have made in the course of swinging (we've made several) as cheating. Naturally we have revised our rules/boundries but I feel that is to be expected when you are new swingers.

There are a couple of things that I guess I would consider as "cheating". One would be if either of us initiated and had begun sexual talk with others without the other of us being included, the other would be if we were to be swinging right now (as we aren't, which many of you have read through my postings) as it would be "cheating" anyone that we swung with. Neither of which either of us want to be a participant of.

Your statement of how you can't help but feel that the concept of cheating is outdated in the swinging household, seems very appropriate to me. Perhaps it is because of boards like this that we became well informed long before we took the first step and as a result, cheating just really isn't part of our swinging vocabulary.

Lori

Uneed_Love · 04-21-2003, 06:42 PM

I suppose there are as many definitions of what cheating can be that the great variety of people on this board. Some for instance are considering that cybersex could be cheating if not immediatly known from the partner.

As we are separeted partners (my GirlFriend and I) we are not always immediatly telling what we do to the other. She has her buddies and I have mine. She is chating online and I am too and I don't considere we are cheating even if it appeared that sometimes I have had in the past some chat around sex with my females buddies. I related this later to my Girl Friend so I don't considere it was cheating because I notified it to her.

A woman two years ago proposed me to join her while her hubby was outside at night to have sex with her but I refused this. In such case this would be cheating here because involving sex without the knowledge of my lover. But to chat online about sex with a female is not like having sex with her and in this case I don't regard this as cheating.

My GF or I are very often masturbating when we are separated and sometimes we talk about it and sometimes we don't. Talk about sex online is not very different than masturbate while reading a story or watching a porn video. It's not cheating (at least not in our relationship) but I assume some others couples can have a different opinion here about this.

I have told my Girl Friend she is absolutly free to have sex occasionelly if she needs it as long as she would give me details after doing it but she has always refused this and I respect her choice just as I should respect her choice if she should suddenly decide to have sex with men while I am not by her side. Her choice is perfect as long as I know what it is. This is our rules and we are committed with them.

JC

OhioCouple · 04-21-2003, 11:41 PM

I am not sure how I would feel in your situation JC. The distance between the two of you is definitely a hardship and let's face it sexual needs are going to have to be met.

We live in the same household here and for me, on my part it would be cheating in my eyes to have, hold or initiate a sexual conversation with someone via cyber or email.

I have no problem with my husbands desires to seek visual sex pictures and he could (and maybe even does for all I know) mastubate to them. The difference in my eyes between cyber chat and a picture, is that a form intimacy is involved. Whether you are "technically" there or not it has moved from visual to oral, even if it only is in the form of type written words.

As I stated prior, I don't know how I would deal with it in your case as you don't get to see your girlfriend every night or cuddle and snuggle up to her. But since I do have my husband here beside me, It would be cheating in my eyes for him to engage in cyber sex without my knowledge, and I don't know that even if he made me aware of it that I would approve. He's never asked or attempted to do so (that I know of).

Lori

Uneed_Love · 04-22-2003, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OhioCouple
I am not sure how I would feel in your situation JC. The distance between the two of you is definitely a hardship and let's face it sexual needs are going to have to be met.

We live in the same household here and for me, on my part it would be cheating in my eyes to have, hold or initiate a sexual conversation with someone via cyber or email.

I have no problem with my husbands desires to seek visual sex pictures and he could (and maybe even does for all I know) mastubate to them. The difference in my eyes between cyber chat and a picture, is that a form intimacy is involved. Whether you are "technically" there or not it has moved from visual to oral, even if it only is in the form of type written words.

As I stated prior, I don't know how I would deal with it in your case as you don't get to see your girlfriend every night or cuddle and snuggle up to her. But since I do have my husband here beside me, It would be cheating in my eyes for him to engage in cyber sex without my knowledge, and I don't know that even if he made me aware of it that I would approve. He's never asked or attempted to do so (that I know of).

Lori

I agree with You Lori on the fact that our love is something not that usual and we have to be creative to keep our love wealthy. Many times we can only "cuddle" with the intermediary of our poor words... snif snif... but it is our choice to live like this... I must look at my old Mom and leave France and she can't leave her work and come to France. So we have still the distance between us and be patient before being able to be under the same roof.

Now what about intimacy ? when you are emailing to a friend - even if the purpose is not sexual - it is always emotional and intimate. As you know I don't hidde what I do to my lover and I am sur you don't hidde what you email to Gene but each time You send a email without showing it first to your hubby then You are in the same situation that I am.

I am not pretending that I am making love online with a female but I am talking about any topic freely and this can be about the way of life, the traditions in her country or the way she can make love. In fact this kind of chat is very similar to the exchanges we could have on this board. Ask to someone else "do you like sodomy ?" is the most intimate thing you can ask to someone else and this is what we do on this board.

Would you say that if the one who is posting do it without showing first to his/her partner the question he is asking this could be regarded as cheating ? I don't think so... and I am not doing something else than we do here on the board.

Hugs and kisses to you.

JC

Uneed_Love · 04-22-2003, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uneed_Love
... I must look at my old Mom and leave France

Of course I wanted to say : I can't leave France because I am looking at my old Mom and should feel guilty if I was leaving France and let her alone behind me.

JC who is not always reading his post before to press the submit button

OhioCouple · 04-22-2003, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uneed_Love
Of course I wanted to say : I can't leave France because I am looking at my old Mom and should feel guilty if I was leaving France and let her alone behind me.

JC who is not always reading his post before to press the submit button

Jc,

Have you been using my handy dandy CPT?

Lori

PS: Everyone, it is an inside joke....I've done some VERY passionate things by using my translator program....

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04-14-2003, 06:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
incommunicado Swingers Board Addict Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 198 Location: Baltimore, MD	Redefining Fidelity I am noticing, yet again, a bunch of posts asking discussing impropriety on the part of one partner or another and asking the question, "did he/she cheat?" I find it very interesting how common it is amongst swingers to "redefine fidelity". That is, to come up with new rules that define cheating/not cheating, now that they are sharing sexual intimacy with other people. And there seems to be a very strong need to establish these boundaries. While I can understand establishing rules for physical and emotional health (i.e., safe sex, no seperate swinging, no falling in love), I can't help but feel that the concept of cheating is outdated in a swinging household. To me, the physical and psychological act of cheating have always been one and the same. If sexual fidelity is promised, once someone breaks that rule, they have cheated. However, once my wife had sex with another man with me present (and not present), the concept of cheating went away and the act itself could never hurt me again---Even if she broke a rule. Swinging puts you in a mindset where sexual interaction, from courtship to culmination, is acceptable and I think it's really hard to turn this off sometime---for either partner. For me, the only way to truly define cheating in our relationship would be if one of us were to get involved with someone else and started pulling away from the other. And, even that goes WAY beyond the concept of cheating.
	Last edited by incommunicado; 04-14-2003 at 06:49 AM.

04-14-2003, 12:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
Seymore Guest Posts: n/a	I would define "cheating" as getting involved with someone behind your spouses back. I dont see how the ability to cheat would disappear after a couple starts swinging. If you do something together, it isnt cheating. I would never want my wife to form an emotional/romantic bond with another man. If she did that, it would of course be without my knowledge because she knows how much that would hurt me. I would definetely call that cheating! I suppose that if you had an "open marriage" (where either person was free to get involved with anyone they wanted, at any time and on any level), then the idea of cheating would disappear...but I cant see how a marriage like that would last very long.
Seymore Guest Posts: n/a

04-14-2003, 12:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
Roxysbayou Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,376 Location: Louisiana Status: Married Female Swing Lifestyle Name:likethat	I agree with Seymore totally. Our rules when decided to enter this lifestyle were... Nothing emotional/romantic...that's cheating. No Ex's...to many old feelings...no rekindling flames...lol Play together...although I have no problem if hubby is away from home and has an encounter as long as he tells me about it, if you hide it...then there must have been more to it...cheating
	__________________ I put the "grrrr" in swinger baby, yeah! --Austin Powers

04-21-2003, 06:42 PM	#11 (permalink)
Uneed_Love Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,134 Location: France Status: long term relationship	I suppose there are as many definitions of what cheating can be that the great variety of people on this board. Some for instance are considering that cybersex could be cheating if not immediatly known from the partner. As we are separeted partners (my GirlFriend and I) we are not always immediatly telling what we do to the other. She has her buddies and I have mine. She is chating online and I am too and I don't considere we are cheating even if it appeared that sometimes I have had in the past some chat around sex with my females buddies. I related this later to my Girl Friend so I don't considere it was cheating because I notified it to her. A woman two years ago proposed me to join her while her hubby was outside at night to have sex with her but I refused this. In such case this would be cheating here because involving sex without the knowledge of my lover. But to chat online about sex with a female is not like having sex with her and in this case I don't regard this as cheating. My GF or I are very often masturbating when we are separated and sometimes we talk about it and sometimes we don't. Talk about sex online is not very different than masturbate while reading a story or watching a porn video. It's not cheating (at least not in our relationship) but I assume some others couples can have a different opinion here about this. I have told my Girl Friend she is absolutly free to have sex occasionelly if she needs it as long as she would give me details after doing it but she has always refused this and I respect her choice just as I should respect her choice if she should suddenly decide to have sex with men while I am not by her side. Her choice is perfect as long as I know what it is. This is our rules and we are committed with them. JC
	__________________ Le Monde est ma maison et l'Univers mon horizon - El Mundo es mi casa y el Universo es mi horizonte - The World is my home and the Universe is my horizon... but my Heart is in Canada (Vancouver precisely)

04-14-2003, 02:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
incommunicado Swingers Board Addict Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 198 Location: Baltimore, MD	I guess it's not so much the deed itself, but what it represents that helps most people define cheating. For me, again, the word and the deed are inexorably linked. Once you have started swinging, illicit sexual contact can never have the same effect, or bear the same weight of impropriety as it did when you were sexually monogomous. Is it wrong to break the rules? Sure. Could it be a sign of greater problems or a willingness to take too many liberties? Possibly. Is it a metaphoric "impulse buy" on the part of someone who has had their sexual boundaries broadened and got caught up in the moment? Probably. Can it ever be called cheating again? Not to me.

04-14-2003, 02:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
bill&sabrina Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 302 Location: Kentucky	The dictionary has several definitions of the word Cheat. Depending on how the word is used. Some of them don't relate to cheat the way a swinger would look at it. The one that does relate as we are discussing in this thread: to violate rules dishonestly. Why can't we keep it this simple?

04-14-2003, 03:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
sepacouple Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 108 Location: southeastern PA Status: couple	We are fairly new to this, having done a threesome a couple of times and played around with a couple at a club once in the past couple of years. We are not searching for additional sexual partners but we do go to a club occasionally, mainly to enjoy the atmosphere, and if the mood is right we may be interested in some fooling around with another person/couple. We feel very strongly that in our situation, intercourse is reserved for each other only and we do not have intercourse with others and that we only play together. In our minds, we are "sharing" each other with someone else we are not going off seperately. To individually have a relationship sexually and/or emotionally with someone else would would be cheating in "our" minds. We also understand that everyone has thier own opinions and "values" and in this lifestyle it is almost impossible to set a clear cut definition for some things. This is one of those things that each couple needs to decide for themselves what is right or wrong for THEIR relationship. This is just our opinion of the situation.

04-20-2003, 11:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
sepacouple Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 108 Location: southeastern PA Status: couple	Thanks for your observations and comments. As you pointed out, even when you think you've thought and talked things out, another persons observations can be helpful. We take it from your post that you have moved past the stage that we are at. Would you mind sharing how you decided to go the next step. Thanks

04-21-2003, 11:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
OhioCouple Swingers Board Addict Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,619 Location: Ohio Status: Married Female	I am not sure how I would feel in your situation JC. The distance between the two of you is definitely a hardship and let's face it sexual needs are going to have to be met. We live in the same household here and for me, on my part it would be cheating in my eyes to have, hold or initiate a sexual conversation with someone via cyber or email. I have no problem with my husbands desires to seek visual sex pictures and he could (and maybe even does for all I know) mastubate to them. The difference in my eyes between cyber chat and a picture, is that a form intimacy is involved. Whether you are "technically" there or not it has moved from visual to oral, even if it only is in the form of type written words. As I stated prior, I don't know how I would deal with it in your case as you don't get to see your girlfriend every night or cuddle and snuggle up to her. But since I do have my husband here beside me, It would be cheating in my eyes for him to engage in cyber sex without my knowledge, and I don't know that even if he made me aware of it that I would approve. He's never asked or attempted to do so (that I know of). Lori
	__________________ Remember that human beings are complicated creatures. We like our bedtime routines but dislike routine in our bed times. - Sallie Foley, M.S.W.

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