Ultimatum: Let me sleep with another woman or I'm leaving

[mnsnen]

Okay, here is my story. I have been married for 8 years. Throughout these 8 years my husband gradually opened up about who he really was sexually. At 1st he kept his mouth shut b/c it had ruined many relationships and he wanted to change. After time with me he realized that his sexual desires were not something he could change. Needless to say, he fell in love with a good girl. I have old fashioned morals and values, however, I am a very open minded person and did not judge him for his desires. It all started coming out slowly. We would talk about him watching me have sex with another man. Simple things. Then as time went by he tried to get me to sleep with another man. I had no intrest. Because I am a "good girl" he has always felt guitly for the way he is. I try to keep him secure in knowing that I do not judge him. Our relationship started going sour over time. When I was pregnant with our 2nd child he cheated. One woman, 5 times. It was just sex. It broke my heart. I was devistated. We commited to fixing our relationship and fell in love all over again. Time went by and things got sour again. He started building up a wall and not opening up to me as much about his sexual desires. I honestly thought it was a phase and it had passed so I didnt know he was claming up. Of course we drifted apart AGAIN.
Well, we almost got a divorce again. He said he wants to make this work, but he gave me an choice. Let him sleep with other women or he was leaving. He said he knows he would end up cheating. The desire is just too strong. He doesn't want to hurt me so he is giving me the choice.
Truth be told, I love the man to death. I wish he wasn't like this but it is nothing I can change. I accept him, sexuality and all. I understand that He has strong sexual desires and that his "giving me a choice" isn't him being an ass hole, but that he really can't do this anymore and he wants me to be a part of his life and is being open and honest enough to let me make the choice. I respect that.
Now I DO NOT have any idea what to do. I told him okay. That I would find it in myself to make this work. I really feel like if it is JUST SEX, that I will be okay with it. But I am TERRIFIED that it will grow to more than just sex. We haven't had the best marriage and I am insecure. I am not insecure about him finding another woman sexy, that is fine. I am insecure about him falling for someone else. I love this man with everything I have and I DO NOT want to let him do this only to get my heart broke.
SO what I want to know is.....
Is there anyone on here that is married and only one of you participates in sex with other partners? Can it work if I am not involved? What ground rules should we lay to prevent this from ruining our marriage??? I want this to play a positive role in our marriage, not destroy it but I am friggin' clueless as to how to make this work.
He wants to have sex with the women he works with. I said "UM... NO" (except for one lady) because I feel this is where it could lead to problems. Should I say no, or am I only keeping him from what he really wants??
ANY help would be greatly appreciated.

[ohash01]

Ultimatums like that should NEVER be given. You shouldn't have to choose between letting your husband cheat and him leaving. It's unfair. You'll probably never be okay with it. If it had been something you two had decided TOGETHER...you could probably make it work. But he said "I need to have sex with others...too bad...don't care if it's okay with you...just letting you know."

I never thought I'd be saying this on these boards...but sexual addiction is a problem. There's a HUGE difference between being a swinger, being adventurous, being open...and what your husband is telling you he wants to do. Swinging is a joint decision. It sound to me like your husband may have a sexual addiction problem. I can't remember the address, but there's a wonderful "spouses of sexual addicts" page out there. My mother used it when my father when loco...I've used it when I ran into BFs with issues. I'll try to find it.

If you decide that you want him to stay with you and are okay with it, I wish you the best of luck. But if it were me...and J. was saying that to me...it'd be hard as hell, but I'd probably say "adios".

[MoonLightKiss]

Okay, first of all you BOTH (him too, so have him come read your post) need to realize that there is a BIG difference between agreeing to have an open relationship, or a swinging relationship and his ultimatum. And trust me, no matter how nicely he put it, this was an ultimatum. Anytime it is said "Either _____ or I will _____" its an ultimatum.

Let me say it is OKAY to be sexually adventurous. It is okay to not want to live a monogamous life. It is okay to sleep with people other than your spouse. It is also okay to be monogamous. It is not okay to give your spouse an ultimatum in order to get your own way. Its a form of manipulation. Agreeing to be swingers or have an open marraige relies heavily on honesty, trust, communication, and respect. Since from your post I gather none of these exist, then this won't work for you. What will happen over time is you will know where he is, resentment will build up until you are also cheating or you get divorced...or both.

You need to sit down and do some serious soul searching. Then you need to sit down with him and explain your feelings clearly. If you want a monogamous relationship, then tell him so and explain that you will not settle for less than the respect you have earned by being his wife and birthing his children. If he chooses to cheat, he chooses to live a life without you. I would also say start looking for a marraige counselor, one who is lifestyle friendly. They tend to not judge people based on their sexuality as opposed to some others. But make sure whomever you choose is a good one. Don't be afraid to shop around. Consider finding a counselor similiar to a major purchase like a home. You don't always go and buy the first one you see, and once you do buy one, years down the road, you may choose to sell it and get a different one. Don't be afraid to ask about their credentials and their counseling technique.

Good luck,
MLK

[intuition897]

Welcome to the board mnsnen! Glad you've found us.

I'm not a big fan of one-sided or "open" marriages, where one or both partners has said, "Look, whether you like it or not, I'm going to NEED to fuck other people. If you can't handle that - and I'm sorry if it hurts - you aren't going to be very happy living with me." It can be said in the most respectful way possible, but just the same...it is a case of putting one's self - one's sexual desires - ahead of one's spouse's/partner's needs. I just can't see a significant long-term relationship being built on self-centredness.

I was going to say this might border on polyamory, but he seems to keep saying that he just wants the sex, not the love. This is something you should probably explore further with him. Is he holding this back from you, for fear of hurting you? Is he just telling you that he doesn't want other emotional relationships? If one is truly polyamorous, it means that they are capable of and prefer multiple emotionally based relationships. This is part of their hardwiring. For them it is fair to say that they cannot control whom they fall in love with. But to say that he cannot control his sexual urges is preposterous.

Sex and food have many parallels. They are drives, they are healthy in moderation, they make you feel good... But when someone cannot be in the same room as a chocolate cake without eating the entire thing, we say that they have a problem. When someone is controlled by their cravings, they are considered addicted. There's a difference between hunger and appetite. Hunger is the body telling you you need to eat, because you will die if you don't; appetite is your mind sending the signal to your stomach to start growling because you've developed a habit of eating a chocolate cake whenever you see one. Need vs. desire.

I seriously doubt that your husband NEEDS to put his penis in another woman's vagina. He just really, really wants to, and he's gotten it into his head that, because he wants it so very badly...well...that must mean that he NEEDS it. The "need" that he has convinced himself of is nothing more than his own mind playing tricks on him. What I've found during our swinging is that the biggest obstacle we have to overcome is our own self. We are our own worst enemies. Welcome to swinging. Sounds like your husband has run smack into his first personal demon. I guess he wasn't far under the surface. This is something that you two should be taking up with a marital counsellor, seriously. Look for one that is experienced with and supprotive of alternative lifestyles.

Something else I'll mention: I see another problem for you on the horizon, and I'm afraid this one will land in your lap, Mrs. mnsnen. You didn't think you get away scot-free, did you now? lol

If you feel that anything but strict monogamy is wrong (AKA "sinful"), then sooner or later, you will need to wrestle your own demons. Can you stay happily married to a man who is doing something that you feel is a moral abomination? It means you will eventually have 3 choices. 1) Put up with it, and accept that you will live a life that you will regret. 2) Go your separate ways. You won't be together, but at least you will have been true to yourself. Or 3) Adjust your beliefs.

Personally, I'd go with #3. Most people think that's just blasphemous, but the thing is that I decided that I simply would believe any truth that was self-evident. I only believe what makes sense. So, for me, faith in God and Jesus Christ makes complete sense (otherwise it's a pretty empty and hopeless life to be living). And I believe that a marriage does not need to be monogamous to be happy; only respectful and selfless in nature. The biggest block I had was overcoming the fear of thinking for myself. A bit like being the child who said, "But the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes!" Once I got over that, things started to make a lot more sense to me, and I realized just how out of wack our cookie-cutter marriage actually was.

It would be helpful if we could hear Mr. mnsnen's side of the story, too.

EDIT>> And a big Dito to MoonLight's post!

[Mr. Truelove]

I agree with everything MoonLightKiss said.

Mr. Truelove

[mnsnen]

Man, you guys rock!! I love the honesty here. Thank you SOOO much for all your replies! (THis isn't something I can talk to about with just anyone) But I do think I should mention that when I said I am a good girl with certain morals and values, I don't want to be misunderstood. I am not a christian. I will not be going against something I REALLY can't deal with on a religious basis.
Also, I do understand that he probobly is a sex addict. He knows that too, to a degree. But he has refused help in the past to get help. (I don't think he is bad, he doens't sit around watching porn 24/7 or anything. Most of his desires occur while we are having sex, and with all the friggin' women he works with. )
And I also want to mention that when he 1st told me this (my chioce) my 1st reaction was HELL NO!! But the more I thought about it, the more ok I became.
Actaully a little excited by the idea. I guess the main thing that bothers me is the way he put it. That I had a choice and that was it. We had discussed swinging in the past, I usually played along just to excite him and he knew that. But HONESTLY it is something that I may have tried with the right couple.
I feel like everyone is attacking him. So, I just want to say that he is very good to me in many ways. I am NOT just saying that. He is a good husband. He isnt just some ass who is trying to get his way. He was just being honest with me. But maybe I am just a fool in love. I just think in reality, most men cheat and they do it b/c the urge is to strong. So why not just accept it. I know this sounds pathetic, but REALLY.....how many people do you know that have cheated? I know plenty, and that usually just leads to guilt and in turn that leads the relationship into real crap. So I feel like if I let him do this (only if I am ok with the person, time, etc.) that I won't be a "fool" in love. I will know. And we will take the relationship maintenance to the next level. I think in order to live this type of lifestyle you MUST put 110% in your marriage at all times. He and I both know this and I really think we will put extra effort into our relationship.
He shouldn't have gotten married. He knows that and I know that. But we did. Now we are in love and have this amazing family. There is just so much to loose just because of sex.
Well, I better stop typing b4 this gets to long and no one wants to read this!
Thank you all so much
So, due to the responses here I was wondering.......
If your spouse said they didn't want to live this "lifestyle" anymore, how would you feel? Would you really be okay, or would it end up causing problems.

[Tybee Swing]

Hi mnsnen, welcome to this board. There are many thoughtful and very wise people on this board, as you have already discovered.

Before I answer your question, I want to say that based on everything you shared about your husband and what he wants to do (already cheated; now wants to mess around with his co-workers), doing these things is NOT "the lifestyle". This is not swinging, at all. Swinging is something that a couple does together. Yes, there are "open marriages" out there, but not that many, not what we see here. Even "open" marriages are with the consent of both parties and they're happy with their situation. There are NO ultimatums. The couples here are participating together. They go into this willingly, both of them as a team, and they forge their own way by creating their own guidelines and way of going about it that suit them both. They do it for their mutual pleasure. To learn much more about it, you may be interested in reading the FAQ's here. Keep on reading here, and you'll learn a great deal about the truth of swinging. There are many false ideas about what it is, but you'll get the truth here.

Originally Posted by mnsnen

If your spouse said they didn't want to live this "lifestyle" anymore, how would you feel? Would you really be okay, or would it end up causing problems.

Before we started, my husband and I discussed this. We both agreed that if at any time, for any reason, we didn't want to participate - either that night, that month, that year or for the rest of our lives, we would be okay with that. Neither of us wants to be here without the other. It's the presence and the participation of each other that turns us on so much. We are turned on to this because we are experiencing this together. This is an enhancement to the great sex life we already have. When we started, we weren't dissatisfied with our sex life. It was dymamic and very hot. This was just something to add for spice, for us. It's like a hot couple who has awesome sex, but sometimes they spice it up with a porn movie, a trip out of town, sexy clothes, sex toys, role play, etc...these things are just for added spice, shared together. Swinging is just spice for us. It's not at all what defines our marriage, our love, our sex life, our desire for each other. In other words, swinging is disposable. We don't need it. If it comes to an end, we both are very assured that it won't hurt our marriage or our sexual lust for each other.

Having read many posts here written by many other happily married swinging couples, I know that many other swinging couples feel the same way.

I hope this helps.

[intuition897]

Mr. intuition and I have effectively been monogamous for 3 years now. Other things have taken priority over swinging, so it's been put on the back burner indefinitely. Neither one of us has cheated on the other. So if he said he just couldn't do it anymore, I'd say that was fine with me.

I'm sorry if we seemed to be picking on Mr. mnsnen. We understand that he's a good husband and you love him to pieces. Like anyone else with an addiction (however severe or mild), they have a problem; it doesn't mean that they are the problem. He's just got this thing he needs to deal with. It's not just men who cheat; it's anyone who tries to fill in the holes in their lives by turning to someone outside of their relationship. So...why is it that he feels he needs more than just you?

If you have or had even the slightest interest in swinging, you really should look into it. One of the most unexpected side effects of swinging was a HUGE spike in our passion for one another immediately after, and up to a week following a swinging encounter. It was just crazy. Couldn't keep off of one another. Perhaps if you became involved in swinging, it might give him some perspective. As in "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". Would he feel any differently if the shoe was on the other foot? "Well, gee honey. A woman just has her needs. I'm sorry, but you'll have to decide whether or not you can live with me needing to have sex with other men." He may very well be just fine with that - even encouraging - but some people are not.

Like I said, it seems to me like he's saying, "But I'm sooooo huuuungry!" and we're saying, "No, you're not. You just THINK you're hungry." (How many times have we said this to our kids? ) He just has it in his head that he has no control over his desires. I'm not suggesting that he repress his desires; I just think maybe they could stand to be reigned in and moderated so that they don't trample over your relationship, your feelings, and his life.

Also, I didn't mean to make any assumptions about your religion. I was just stating my own personal beliefs as an example.

[Edison Carter]

Edison here--The choice of ending the marriage or to allow cheating is not a choice. He gets his goal, other women, either way. 'Temptation too strong' oh puhleeeeeze. I'm sorry, I hate weak willed men who enter a monogamous relationship and then complain when they can't cope and I say this as a man. Instead of investing his life in the pursuit of other women, how about into his family, work and growth. I say this with all sincerity, the guy is a spoiled little brat who needs to grow up. Remember, you never lied about who you were or what your life was about, he did and you're left to cope with it. His high sex drive never destroyed a relationship, it dissolved the ones he built on fiction. I just laugh as to how he paints himself as a victim.

When I first met Susan and asked her out she told me exactly what she was about sexually. What a shame he was such a coward and did not do the same for you. Sorry, I don't buy into his hyperbole.

Perhaps counselling, but if he's insisting you change to accomodate what he lied to you about, then it's your choice to be a 'doormat'.

[MoonLightKiss]

...most men cheat and they do it b/c the urge is to strong. So why not just accept it...

This is what has me concerned. And I respectfully disagree. Most men do not cheat because the urge is so strong. They cheat because they are incapable of controlling their urges. Or rather I should say they think they are. What it really is is a very simple case of not wanting to. And that goes for women too, not just men. (Don't want anyone to think I am bashing men only.) Why not accept it? Better question is why would you? You don't think you deserve better or something. And he is probably a great husband. But its still selfish. Yes, even good people can screw up and be selfish.

As for would either of us be okay if one wanted to leave? Absolutely. We are in this together. And we will leave it together if one of us chooses to without ever blinking. This is not a necessity in our life like water or food. Its a desire, a want. We do not need swinging in our lives to be happy. We swing because we are happy to do so at this time. Tommorrow my husband could wake up and say "Honey about swinging, I don't think I want to do it anymore." And I would be just as happy with him as I was the day before when we did swing.

[ViSexual]

You asked;

"So, due to the responses here I was wondering.......
If your spouse said they didn't want to live this "lifestyle" anymore, how would you feel? Would you really be okay, or would it end up causing problems."

My wife and I shared swinging with five different couples years ago. I loved it but she had problems dealing with what we'd done 'after' each experience. She says that she only tried it for me, but the truth is that she actually initiated it a couple of the times.

Well, after 20 years of no swinging of any form we did share some very soft swinging together six years ago but it just didn't last. I, again, loved it but she grew weary of it again.

Through these experiences we learned to be more open with each other and talk about things we'd never before talked about. She knows how I feel and I know how she feels.

Our compromise is that I'm allowed to flirt and fantasize and I make an extra effort to show her how much I love her.

You mentioned that the posibility of him being with another woman does excite you a little? Have you considered that you might find some areas of swinging, if only 'soft' swinging, enjoyable? A lot of very 'nice' girls swing with their husbands, you know.

Your husband sounds a lot like me in the sexuality department and just the hope, the possibility, the pure distant chance that someday, some guy, some gal, or some perfect couple might make my wife interested again is enough to keep me going.

Hope this answers your question and I also hope you and your husband work things out. I think the mere fact you are here indicates that you're willing to give it every chance.

Good luck to you, Sweetie!

[oddcouple2841]

This is K (the male)

First let me say I think mnsnen has already taken the first step toward changing her attitude. Reaching out on this board shows how serious she is.


I also believe that her husband's situation or desire to act on his fantasies may turn out to be not much more than just that, a fantasy. Many here will remember how excited they were on christmas morning about all of the presents. Things just couldn't have gotten much better but a week later how many of these presents sat in the way or in the closet and you were bored again?

"He said he wants to make this work, but he gave me an choice. Let him sleep with other women or he was leaving."

Yes this is an ultimatum but in the interest of giving him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it is just his acknowledgment that continuing on the way things are he believes that the chances of success are so low that he is unwilling to continue trying. I think in the end he will be sorry if he does leave. He does not yet realize that the grass is only greener on the other side of the fence because he does not have to mow, water, fertilize, weed or really do anything more than just admire it.

If I were in Mrs. mnsnen's position and seriously considering this I would demand to be a part of it in some way. I would also put anyone from "work" or either of us personally know strictly off limits. I would not want him with a woman who would accept a "cheater". If they will do that then god only knows what else they might do or what he might catch and bring home to you. I know that it may be very hard to suck up your beliefs and set out to swing together but in this situation it may be her only choice.

In the end no matter what you decide Mrs. mnsnen you will have to be the one who looks in the mirror and decide if you can live with the person staring back at you. Don't do anything that will damage your relationship with that person.

[Cpl2share]

We have discussed your situation at some length and here is our take on it:
First substitute physical abuse for cheating. Yes, he hits me, but he really loves me. He hits me but he really loves the kids. He hits me but he is such a good person otherwise. We are hearing a lot of excuses for his behavior. Period. No matter how you cut it, he is doing something that hurts you and has no intention of quiting it. You are enabling him to continue. That is not love.
My wife and I did engage in some swinging for about two years, but have not done so in the past year. The couple that we were "with" and us grew apart. We have not found a couple since then that both of us are interested in at the same time. Wed are okay with this. Our sex drives are extreme opposites. I want it every day, she would be satisfied with twice a month. During our 16 years together we have never cheated on each other. Our first son did some serious damage to her plumbing. It was extremely painful for her to have sex afterwards. We did not have sex for over 9 months after he was born. I did not cheat. We have evolved into an animal (yep, I am a athiest) which has opposable thumbs. Thsi makes masterbation very easy for me. When I have an "urge" to get laid and my wife does not want to, I jerk off. She is okay with this. Does not consider it cheating. Soemtimes we discuss who we would like to have sex with.
If he loves you he will find a way to stop what he is doing. If you love yourself, you will not put up with what he is doing, and you will not give in to his ultimatum.

[Mrs.PaganLovers]

Originally Posted by mnsnen

So, due to the responses here I was wondering.......
If your spouse said they didn't want to live this "lifestyle" anymore, how would you feel? Would you really be okay, or would it end up causing problems.

Nope, no problems, we would stop immediately. We do this together, with full understanding that if either of us is uncomfortable, it stops, no questions asked. Well, just because we communicate everything, we would talk about it.

The thing about being in this lifestyle is that it is a magnifier. If the marriage is good it will make it better. If the marriage has problems, it will make it worse. You can't get into this for just one of you, it will eventually destroy you. The marriage has to be sound and solid, before you start. The 3 most important aspects of a good marriage is respect, trust and communication, if any one of those 3 are not present, you may as well walk away, or be content to be miserable for the rest of your life. For me, life is to short to be miserable.

I really feel bad for you in this situation, ultimatums are a disaster waiting to happen. It's like putting your broken heart and feelings into a box and nailing the lid down tight (if I just ignore them they will go away), eventually the nails rust and the lid pops open. In the meantime, they have been festering in there and reproduced and grown, by the time the lid pops, the amount of anger will eat you alive. Been there done that, I am speaking from my own experience, from a previous marriage.

I hope it works out for you, or that you two work it out.

Blessings
Mrs. PL

[pagan-lovers]

Your husband definately has some major issues, which you have no control over. I am amazed by the number of women who stay with a bad apple in hopes of fixing him, or think all men are cheaters, so I'll just put up with the one I have. I agree with the people who suggested counseling for the both of you.

Originally Posted by mnsnen

Needless to say, he fell in love with a good girl. I have old fashioned morals and values, however, I am a very open minded person and did not judge him for his desires.

Because I am a "good girl" he has always felt guitly for the way he is.

Originally Posted by mnsnen

But the more I thought about it, the more ok I became.
Actaully a little excited by the idea.

What you can work on is yourself, figure out where you stand. The quotes above represent confusion to me.

Myself I don't do ultimatums. Give me an ultimatum and you will see the rebel in me real fast.