More on Cheating

[JustAskJulie]

Some thoughts posted in the "Does Cybersex = Cheating" thread got me to wondering.....

In a relationship do you base your view on what cheating is on your own opinions or on your spouses/partners?

What I mean by this is, if one partner doesn't see something as cheating but the other does (take the cybersex issue for example) and the partner that doesn't see it as cheating does it. The partner that does consider it cheating will feel that their partner has cheated on them.

So in your relationship what do you base the definition of cheating on? Is it anything that either partner would feel is cheating? Or is it to each their own?

Kinda sounds like a Clinton question huh? (Just what is is?)

[TeamSoBe]

The entire concept of "cheating" has become nearly irrelevant in our relationship. A big part of that has been because of swinging. I'm curious if anybody else has ended up where we are.

Basically for us, we don't spend our days worrying about the other cheating. We don't spend a lot of energy on worrying about our security with each other. Somehow we have reached a state where it's just not something that we think about. It's not that we intentionally make a point of suppressing insecurity or anything, it's just that after some of the things that we have gone through, there isn't much left to worry about.

Not all of the things that we have gone through to get us here have been happy positive things. We each have had sex with somebody else without getting permission first, and without the other around. Those experiences were painful and ugly and caused a lot of problems, but they taught us that:

1) Neither of us is interested in conducting a big secret relationship with some outsider. In both of our cases, we fessed up to the unauthorized sex and apologized after it happened, had the necessary fights, and moved on. No big cover-up operations.
2) Our relationship is strong enough to get through something like that, to the point where breaking up wasn't even on the table when either of us 'cheated'. I say 'cheated' in quotes because there were mitigating factors for both of us, but the point is that our love was stronger than the drama.

Those two revelations actually (almost) made the pain and the drama worth the experience. When you add in our swinging experiences, where both of us realize that we can have fun with other people and still be in love with each other, and that we can enjoy watching the other have fun, well there's just not much to worry about any more.

I have personally always been something of an insecure person, and I have been cheated on plenty of times. I never expected to find myself at this level of trust with anybody, but that's where I find myself. I'm not even sure that "trust" is the right word. It's not that I "trust" my wife not to do things that would hurt me, it's just that our experiences have taken the power out of the things that could cause pain, so that they aren't really worth thinking about any more.

[sportync]

A very interesting and positive answer to a very interesting question. It shows what can happen when two people realize that they are not possessions, but rather a couple who truely wish to see their partner happy and filfulled. I think that this can only come about with a lot of deep communication and faith in the love you share. The scene that Julie suggested is far too common in the region where I live. A lot of the women feel that it's almost expected for their man to go lookin'...Hell, he wouldn't be a man if he didn't! Yet if another guy even looks at them, they(the women) are libel to have a black eye or a fat lip just for lookin' like a slut and drawing attention to themselves. I didn't really understand this behavior...why anyone would choose to live this way, but it really is all about possession and domination which doesn't have a thing to do with love. Once you put away the idea that you own this person, you can't help but see them and the relationship in a very different light. Some relationships can never rise above the "I own you, you're mine" idea and become mature enough to begin sharing joy together in it's many splendid forms. Basically, in regard to cheating, I think that it's more of the idea that you aren't going to do anything to cause pain to the one you love. You know them, so you know what behavior is likely feel hurtful to them, and out of love and respect, you refrain from that type of behavior, knowing in your heart that they aren't going to purpously do anything that might cause you pain. Communicating these things to each other helps in preventing problems down the road. The golden rule is, indeed , alive and well. Sportync

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by TeamSoBe
It's not that I "trust" my wife not to do things that would hurt me, it's just that our experiences have taken the power out of the things that could cause pain, so that they aren't really worth thinking about any more.

Interesting question. This portion of TeamSoBe's hit home for me.

I was cheated on in a relationship once before and somehow all the power that it held over me then, is no longer there. I think perhaps I developed a "Que Sera, Sera" type attitude. (For you younger folks....Doris Day and "What ever will be, will be.) Some my consider it somewhat cold and calloused, but it is what I needed to do to get through it.

Certainly, If my husband were to physically have sex with someone that I knew nothing about, I would not only be heartbroken but we would head for divorce court. I have zero tolerance for that sort of behavior.

My husband on the other hand....*would* consider cyber chatting, AIM's or webcam activities as a violation of our marriage if he was not made aware or involved in the process. He, to the best of his knowledge did not have his ex cheat on him. I feel that is where the difference lies.

Lori

[TeamSoBe]

If I found out (again) that my wife had screwed some guy without me around and without me knowing about it, then I would be really, extremely pissed. I mean really pissed, it's even more irritating to find out that something like that has happened when your partner knows that you would theoretically allow them to get laid if they go through the proper channels.

However, I would not feel the isolation and desolation that I used to feel when I got cheated on by other people. I wouldn't question her love for me, becuase I know that she loves me and that her unauthorized sex wasn't about that. Feeling abandoned is the really painful part about cheating, as far as I'm concerned. With us, I would still feel betrayed and I would be angry, but I know that she loves me. I would not be haunted by images of her cheating, because I have seen her fucking other guys and I actually kind of like it, it's not a huge painful taboo any more. When I screwed a girl and then told my wife about it the next day, she was really pissed off, but whether I loved her or not was just never an issue. When I found out that she got funky with my best friend without me, same deal. Those disputes are more along the lines of what would happen if we disrespected each other in some horrible way than they are conflicts about doubt over our feelings or commitment for each other. It's exactly like you say, SportNYC, we don't own each other, so the world doesn't end if one of us has an orgasm without the other around.

So here's something that I didn't really think about until today when I was typing that first response: Have any of us gotten into this sort of relationship intentionally, specifically to weaken the power that cheating has over us?

I never really thought of it consciously that way, and my cover story is that we're swingers because we're exciting, scandalous, horny people. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I have to wonder, though, if some part of me was in fear of being hurt again and set out to keep that pain from being possible.

One thing that makes me think that there might be something behind that idea is that my wife also has been cheated on, and she was really hurt by it. She had a long-term boyfriend that treated her like a posession and controlled her closely, but constantly fucked around on her. Now with me, it's not really a big deal for her. She approves, and she goes out of her way to to set me up with girls whenever she can.

I know that she has intentionally sucked the power out of painful experiences before, and consciously. She lost her virginity at a really early age to a guy that just immediately ditched her. When she realized that she had been used for something that she considered really precious, she set out to take the power out of sex. She gave it up to a long list of guys that didn't deserve it until she felt in control, and took a lot of the emotional power out of sex itself. I wonder if she and I have both done the same thing with cheating, and if that's one of the things that led us to swinging...

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by TeamSoBe

So here's something that I didn't really think about until today when I was typing that first response: Have any of us gotten into this sort of relationship intentionally, specifically to weaken the power that cheating has over us?

I believe that you may have hit the nail on the head. I am not saying that is the reason we chose to share ourselves, but it is a VERY good possibility. My husband cheated once in his prior marriage (Not with me, with someone else that lives near us and we are friends with) I was cheated on in mine , we have a definite age difference, 15 years, so that adds a little more into the pot.

Perhaps the question should be if you have been cheated or been the cheater, does that make you more prone to look at swinging as an avenue to insure the preservation of your relationship?

Lori

[TeamSoBe]

Hmm, interesting. I wonder how many other people are happily swinging as an alternative to cheating.

My wife and I often compare our relationship to the relationships of our more 'vanilla' friends, and we often notice two big differences when it comes to sex. One big difference is that as time goes on, our vanilla friends generally spend a lot of time bitching about how shitty their sex life is, which of course we don't do. The other big difference is that we are seeing that a lot of our friends are cheating and having problems with cheating.

We have always enjoyed the fact that since we share our sexuality with each other, we don't have to hide anything from each other. We also celebrate how we have a pretty interesting sex life too, and I always assumed that seeking excitement was the only real conscious factor in where we're steering our sex life. I'm going to sit her down as soon as we have a chance for a good conversation and see what she thinks about the idea that we both might be also interested in insulating ourselves against the pain of cheating.

I just want to mention that I don't really think that it's a bad thing if so, just not something that I ever thought much about, certainly not something that we ever talked about.

[sportync]

It's pretty amazing how the human psyche works. My ex used to cheat on me, and the pain and insecurity caused by my reaction to her behavior was extreme. I really thought that I loved her and we had spent 6 or 7 years together. Then one night, she confessed that she had done two buddies of mine at a party, and that was why she didn't want to make love...she was too sore. It was like the love that I felt for her evaporated right before my eyes. I wasn't mad, really..hurt, yes. But I felt a big hole where all of that love used to be. We seperated very shortly after, and then divorced. My current wife(final one, lol) is 17 years my junior, and cheating is something that neither of us worry about. The first time we hooked up with another couple, I was really wondering how I might handle interaction between her and the other guy....whether it would open up old wounds. Well, I found it exciting as hell, partly just because it was so damned sexy and erotic, but also partly I think, because I wasn't worried about what her behavior would be like with this guy when I wasn't around. I knew that she wouldn't try to set up a private tryst behind my back, so whatever she wanted to do in front of me was quite allright. Of course, having another woman to play with at the same time certianly didn't hurt my feelings either. All in all, we had a good time, even though we don't play with that couple anymore. I know that I will run into women who I find attractive, and I know that she will find other men attractive. If the chemestry was SO strong, that they felt utterly compelled to act on it , and she were to tell me about it later, I don't think it would hurt nearly as much, now that I have actually seen her having sex with another man. I would just be hurt by the fact that she decided to exclude me from the activity. I think just about anything that either of us would like to do is alright as long as we do it together. If you have to exclude your partner, then you may be crossing the line into cheating. This would probably, but not necessarily include cyber-sex. If it was done with the exclusion of your partner, if they didn't know about it and were not comfortable with it, then you might want to either refrain, or talk about it and get their take on the matter. Sportync

[TeamSoBe]

Sport, I think that we might be narrowing in on an answer to Julie's original question: what is cheating for a swinger? I think that the answer might be exclusion.

We used to feel that prior permission was a necessary element for us to have sexual activity with other people without it being cheating, but that is becoming less and less of an issue as we become more and more secure in each other.

At my bachelor party just over a year ago, my wife had a blast. We had a combined bachelor/bachelorette party and we just completely terrorized Mons Venus. She was naked on stage most of the night, ended up making over $100 in tips at her own bachelorette party. When we headed back to a friend's place to continue the party, she was so hammered the she ended up passing out while the party was going full steam. I tried to wake her up, but it just didn't happen. It was my bachelor party and I had a hot girl available, so hey, I fucked her. Told my (future) wife about it as soon as she woke up, and wow she was pissed. That pissed didn't last very long though, it was mainly a respect and consideration issue rather than a cheating issue. She was pissed that she didn't have a chance to authorize the sex, even though she would have if she had the chance. I didn't intentionally run around behind her back and exclude her, so she was pissed that I didn't restrain myself when she couldn't be present, but since I didn't exclude her on purpose it wasn't something that she called "cheating".

I'll spare all of the details, but the exact same thing happened in the other direction a couple of years ago, I passed out in the middle of a pretty erotic experience and my best friend tagged her for the first time ever while I was down for the count. When I found out about it I was really irritated at them for fucking while I was zonked, but I never thought of it as cheating. Just inconsiderate. I was mainly pissed off because I missed it, I had been looking forward to seeing their first time together.

Recently we were with friends at a party where a girl that I really like was after me. Her husband and my wife were passed out because it was really late. Yes, we drink a lot, and yes, I'm aware that it's not healthy to have so many stories about people passing out. That's a different issue though. Anyway, the girl was all over me and really wanted to go at it, but I didn't because our partners were gone and waking them wasn't really an option. My wife has all but admitted that she probably wouldn't have even bothered to throw a fit over it if I had nailed the girl like I wanted to, but that she appreciates my restraint since it would have been the first time with that girl. I wasn't running around behind her back trying to exclude her from the situation, so "cheating" wasn't a concept that we even discussed when it happened.

So that's my take on it. For us, cheating is something that involves excluding the other. We feel that we are being faithful to each other as long as there is no deceit or intentional exclusion. We're secure enough in our feelings for each other that there isn't any particular activity or situation that is taboo for us. This sounds like some kind of strange Utopian fantasy, but somehow that really is where we ended up.

This is fairly easy for us as we both have the same opinions of what constitutes cheating. (any sexual activity that involves another person through any medium, without the knowledge/permission of the other)

But talk about disrespect for your spouse, if you knew that he/she thought something was cheating but disagreed and went ahead with it anyways ....(OUCH) You would think it may be time for a long, long chat!

[sportync]

I think that Julie's question could be summed up like this.. you are a couple. It would seem to me that as a couple, you have probably decided together what constitutes cheating and what doesn't. How something could be construed as cheating by one party and not the other doesn't really seem to be revelant. You both know what cheating is...it's what you as a couple define it to be. It is then up to you as a couple to remember not to cross that line, because if you do, you sleep on the couch! Sportync

[youngish56]

Amazingly introspec tive topic. My wife and I started, at my urging, after her valid suspicions of my cheating pushed our relationship to the brink. I think I've been subconsciously aware of this but this thread hits it squarely and exactly for what it is. I pushed her into multi-partner sex for not only the erotic lure, but as an acceptable solution to a problem I caused and could "cure" no other way. I still have not admitted my original guilt and hope the need never arises. I'm less proud of my motives now, but thanks for making this clearer to me.

[OhioCouple]

I'd like to throw another twist in this. If the majority rule that cheating is something your spouse/mate does not know about, how would this figure in?

Is it cheating when you have sex with your significant other even though you are really not in the mood and you fake it? Would that not be a form of cheating also?

Is it cheating if you are having sex with your significant other and actually fantasizing another senario in order to achieve orgasm?

Keep in mind the other party is unaware and you don't tell them. Is this not a cheating of the minds and relationship itself, or is it okay because you are with your significant other?

Lori

[sportync]

Ohio, I don't think that this would really be considered cheating, because your partner is there with you, even if in body only. Lots of things can play in your mind while love-making, and even though you may be imagining doing the starting line-up of the Steelers, in reality you are doing your partner. And even though you may be thinking of someone else, you are sharing your body with your partner. Someone a whole lot smarter than me once said, "you can't stop a bird from landing on your head, but you can sure as hell keep him from building a nest there!" I think that quote would apply here. Your thoughts and your actions are not the same thing. Otherwise, my wife would have dumped me the first time we went to the beach and I looked at some cute honey in a string bikini. Look all you want, imagine what you wish, but keep your heart where it belongs. And unless it's alright with her, keep your pecker in your pants, or in hers. Sportync

[TeamSoBe]

Lori, your question highlights the two different philosophies of sin in the Christian world: Catholic and Protestant.

This is a simplification obviously, but for a Protestant, if you do something wrong then you have sinned. For a Catholic, merely thinking about doing something wrong is sinning.

If you have the Catholic "thoughtcrime" mentality, then you might really truly feel like it's cheating if you find out that your partner has been fantasizing about your best friend during sex. If you try to construct a relationship around the idea that your partner will never so much as think about another person, then you are denying some pretty basic aspects of human nature, and the only way to make a relationship like that work is by hiding a big part of yourself from your "partner". I quote "partner" because people that hide that much of themselves from each other are really just co-habitating, they aren't partners in life.

If you have the Protestant mentality, then you're fine as long as you don't actually step out and have sex with somebody. Fantasizing about this month's Playboy centerfold is cool, just don't get naked in real life with the pool boy. That denies human nature too, but actions are easier to control than thoughts, so more people are successful at not violating the bounds of that sort of arrangement.

My wife is Japanese and we don't subscribe to either the Catholic guilt mentality or the Protestant I-did-not-have-sex-with-that-woman mentality. We have a Zen mentality on cheating. Wise old Zen monk say: "The wise bamboo bends in the wind." It's human nature to explore your sexuality. Having sex with a variety of people is part of exploring your sexuality. If you really understand that and celebrate each other, then you support each other's sexual exploration as much as you support each other's career ambition or culinary development or whatever. Anything that harms your partner is bad, anything that does not is not bad. Lying and deception would make us feel insecure, so we consider that harmful, and anything that involves deception we call "cheating". Excluding the other is selfish and also makes us feel insecure, so that's also "cheating". Anything else is just sex, which is frequently cause for celebration.