Morality: Swinging vs. Cheating

[delectableduo]

First off, glad to have a new topic to discuss :-).

We were recently together on Yahoo chat, bouncing around, and landed in the "Married N Cheating" room. We got into some conversations with married women and men who were actively looking to cheat. Everyone had a story/reason for doing it. After a couple of long conversations we revealed (not held back intentionally) that we were swingers.

We then endured a long tirade of derision from every single person, male or female, in that chat room, by IM and in the room itself. We heard all about how depraved we were, how unnatural and sick our lifestyle was, etc. It went on and on.

We were shocked that people who were actively screwing around behind their spouse's backs would be throwing these big moral judgements on those of us who do it with consent, and together. Just who is sick? We find the dishonesty of cheating morally revolting. We find sharing honest desires morally uplifting... but that's us.

Has anyone else encountered this attitude?

DD

[intuition897]

delectableduo, I hear ya. It just boggles my mind how these people can think their behaviour should be socially more acceptable than ours...how they can think WE'RE the sick ones!!! Unbelievable. My M-I-L's reaction when we told her that we were in the lifestyle was, "Why don't you just have affairs??" Uhhhhh...because that would be wrong?????? Because it's hurtful and disrespectful? Because there's no need to? She still thinks we're not right in the head, but this is someone who's a serial monogamist; she's been married not once, not twice, not even three times...but four times! And divorced again hunting for the next one. For her, she has said to me that she needs to be 'in love' with her partner in order for her to enjoy sex. Well, I don't know what you call it, but whatever it is she feels for these men, it certainly is not MY definition of being in love.

Nope, there's no getting around it. Swinging is probably always going to have a stigma attached to it. I find that we're at about the same stage as gays and lesbians were some years ago, when they were searching for simple acceptance. Trouble is, gays' and lesbians' relationships can follow the same vanilla mindsets as straight relationships, so they fit in better. Our whole philosophy tells the vanilla world that what they've been brought up to believe is a fairy tale. The arrangement may still work for many, because it is their choice, but sexual monogamy certainly isn't THE path to enlightenment that many of these uninformed vanillas think it is. We need to 'get Jesus'? We need to be healed?? I think not. I'd have to say, "Right back at ya, pal." I really feel sorry for these ignorant people.

[delectableduo]

Great points! And one I forgot to mention- yeah, we thought that at least lesbians, gays, or other "alternative lifestyle" folks would at least be tolerant- but we've taken heat from a lot of lesbians too. We found this surprising and disappointing.

We're wondering if it's worse having such a stigma attached to our lifestyle choices, or being so bad at making those choices actually happen.

[NakedInSeattle]

We are proud of the choices we've made to share our sexuality, passion, and pleasure with other like-minded couples. The operative word here is SHARE. Cheating is the farthest thing from our minds. Cheating breaks up families and buries the cheaters (both parties) in guilt and anxiety over getting caught. Does this sound like fun? I DON'T THINK SO!

Is what we do fun? You bet it is. It is a shared experience without guilt or recrimination. No one is hurt.

We have never spoken to anyone admitting to cheating but if we did and if he or she looked down their nose at us for the choices we've made I sure would put their lying, cheating asses straight.

There!

[good times]

I have noticed one common thread in all the cheaters we have run across and that is that they all have a long list of justifications of why it is ok for them to cheat on their spouse. Most of the time they have convinced themselves that it is their spouses fault that they have to cheat on them, and evidentely, in their mind, this releaves them of the moral obligation to be faithfull. One women that I know absolutely condems and will not associate with anyone who would be a swinger or a cheater yet she cheated on her ex husband for months with her current husband but justifies that by being convinced that it was her ex husbands fault. Funny how some peoples minds works.

[Vantabulous]

Oh, hell, here we go again...

Let's remember that cheaters do not consider themselves non-monogamous, do they? Go ahead and ask them. Therefore, in their plane of consciousness, they believe that they're still on the moral "high ground". Like GT suggests, they aren't the ones at fault and have actually been forced into this despicable situation...not of their doing, of course.

delectable,

Oddly, the flak you've taken from lesbians doesn't surprise me all that much. Were it to have come from gay men, then, I'd be surprised. (We men don't have nearly the revulsion about two women "being together" that we do about two men in a similar arrangement. Ergo, lesbians tend to come closer to an "acceptable", dare I say "vanilla", lifestyle than gay men do. (Sound about right, intuition?) That might account for the grief that you've gotten from them.)

intuition,

There's nothing wrong with fairy tales. If only because of the woman that I'm married to, I'm living one. Everything outside of her is "life", and that's something we all deal with. I don't have the patience, or inclination, to be narrow-minded about anyone that poses no threat to me or my family. I despise arrogance and I'll be damned if I'll condemn anyone for a lifestyle choice that enhances his, or her life, while not jeopardizing anyone else's. (Now, you take a deep breath and count to a gazillion... )

Van

We see our vanilla friends screwing around on each other all the time. Not all of them but some. The funny thing is; this one is fucking that one and that one is fucking this one and they all get together in a social setting like nothing is going on.

We know one couple who is cheating on each other and neither one of them knows it.

We just shake our heads in disbelief.

[intuition897]

Originally Posted by Vantabulous

intuition,

There's nothing wrong with fairy tales. If only because of the woman that I'm married to, I'm living one. Everything outside of her is "life", and that's something we all deal with. I don't have the patience, or inclination, to be narrow-minded about anyone that poses no threat to me or my family. I despise arrogance and I'll be damned if I'll condemn anyone for a lifestyle choice that enhances his, or her life, while not jeopardizing anyone else's. (Now, you take a deep breath and count to a gazillion... )

Van

HUH?? Van are you pissed off at me? Actually I live a fairy tale life, too. Mr. intuition is my knight in shining armour, my champion. I am a die-hard romantic. I applaud those who are brave enough to not settle for anything less than their dream-life. I've read your posts before, and I know that you and Mrs. Van have a great marriage. I also know that, while you may be more open to the idea of swinging, she chooses to remain a non-swinger. But you both have reached an understanding and there is no lack of communication. I respect this completely. I guess maybe 'fairy tale' was not the right term. I'm speaking of men who have grown up listening to their own fathers whine about the constraints of marriage, bringing their sons up on the idea of emotionally distancing themselves from the female sex, giving their sons the impression that 'men have needs that wives just do not understand.' And women who have been brought up believing that martyring themselves is a noble act of self-sacrifice; that pouting, moping and the silent treatment are effective communication techniques; that the with-holding of sex is a way for a woman to regain some leverage a marriage; that some Prince Charming is out there waiting to wisk them off their feet and serve the world to them on a silver platter; that if it's not as pretty as it is in the picture books from childhood, they've somehow failed. These notions may seem antiquated, but if you look closely, you'll see ghosts of them even in our new-age way of thinking. There is a tendency to bury one's head in the sand and pretend things will go away or work out. THAT I have no time for. There are always exceptions to both Vanilla and Swinger, but I have noticed as a rule, swingers are refreshingly free of this affliction (Mrs. Van and yourself being one of those exceptions). There's an honesty and frankness about these kinds of people that I just love. During an awkward moment, they are the ones who break the tension by stating the obvious, "WOW.. lol.. this is really awkward, isn't it?"

Van, please take my posts with a grain of salt and give me the benefit of the doubt I wasn't trying to flame anyone but the cowards...and you and Mrs. Van are not among that number.

[good times]

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs-naughty

We know one couple who is cheating on each other and neither one of them knows it.

If we lived closer I'd say we know the same couple.

[Sapphire67]

It seems that cheating is looked upon as more acceptable than swinging. I was recently asked by someone to have an affair - and my response to him was (jokingly serious) how 'bout lets meet at a club and have an MFM - him, me and my SO. His response was "sorry, not interested" - yet he's interested in having an affair with me. I'm not in the least interested in having an affair or cheating on my SO - I have a conscience and my conscience says it's wrong. In addition, both my SO and I have been previously married (not to each other) and we have been the ones who were cheated on and we both know how it feels - the hurt, the "if you did this I wouldn't have to do that" bs, the lies that the cheater tells, etc... For once, we are in a relationship where we can openly discuss our fantasies, sexual desires, etc. and are taking steps (albeit baby steps) to pursuing them... The openness and the honesty that we share is so refreshing. A relationship wherein each person can openly share fantasies and desires is something that everyone should be able to experience. Cheating is wrong. Swinging, in my book, is definitely the way to go...

[BiDrywallChick]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that cheating is more acceptable than swinging. why? perhaps INT is right.. Its because of the way we 9 collectivly) have been taught from childhood. monogamy reigns supreme but as long as you keep your affairs on the side under cover, no one gets hurt.. buts gods forbid if you have a strong relationship with open sexual bounds. Then you are deviant and morally wrong. My own mother told me last night that I needed to find someone on the side and stop pretending that having an open marriage works.. She said that because I was bitch about hubby not folding any clothes... Go figure

[NaughtyKitten]

Someone needs to speak up that has experience with both swinging and cheating. I guess I will do. I almost cheated about a year ago. It felt horrible. I didn't like the lying. I didn't like the feeling that if hubby found out we would be getting a divorce. I didn't like feeling that my family could be destroyed by my behavior. I didn't follow thru with the cheating but the offer was on the table, there was a kiss and there was a moment of indecision. I could have chosen to cheat but I did not. I chose my marriage. I told hubby about it and although it was hard to get past we are stronger now for the honesty. We've had only one swinging experience so far but it was so different. We shared the experience and it was satisfying for both of us. Denying my sexual desires drove me to the point of contimplating cheating. Swinging allows both of us to satisfy those desires(his too) together. I didn't want to leave my husband for this other man, I just wanted a new sexual experience. I can't tell you how much we have grown over the past year and how much stronger our marriage is now that we are honest about everything. We are sexual beings. We have desires. We can accept that about each other and enjoy seeing each other satisfied. We want to be together forever. We have supported each other in all other areas of our life, education, career, family desires, why not sexual desires? It feels right for us.

[BiDrywallChick]

see.. my husband has cheated on me before, even with our open relationship. It had nothing to do with the sex.. it had alot to do with where our relationship was at during that timeframe. Still, people were more ok with the fact that he had and a torrid affair with someone but not ok with us being swingers or poly. It has more to do with how society feels about the moral barriers so to speak that we have set up. Anything that chllenges the "normal" way of life, is looked down upon. no matter if it works for someone or not

[JTswing]

WOW, This is a totally new concept. I have never heard of a cheater taking a stab at swingers. They should make cheating illegal. Heck you can get sued for everyting else these days. I have heard all kinds of excuses from friends that were cheating. My favorite was a couple of friends of mine. married and cheating on each other. I KNEW both were cheating and just laughed. :O They "BOTH" told me why they were playing around. She doesn't put out enough anymore. Go figure, She said the same thing about him. She got caught cheating and he was just appalled she would do such a thing. Cheating is no more than theft. If one of you is faithfull then the cheater is taking something away that in a sense belongs to you because of the vows you take. I have yet to here of a marrige that only allows one of two to stray. Swinging on the other hand is a mutually agreed upon part of a couples lives that they are sharing. All that it shows is that swingers can do something that cheaters can't. COMMUNICATE. When it comes right down to it, all cheaters have a reason. But if they are cheating they have obviously not talked it over with thier SO or they would not have to do the things they are doing. Here is a Question for all us swingers, or at least wanna bees. IF you and or your spouse picked up an std or got pregnant, how would it be viewed? From everything I have read so far it is pretty clear (other posts) There is no "I's" for a swinging couple, It would be a we thing. "If he wouldn't have kept leaving his shoes in the middle of the living room I wouldn't have been out screwing around on him, wich means I would have never gotten pregant ,YOUR HONOR". I'm sold case closed. And yes there are people that dumb in the world. Just ask McDonald's. To hot to hold so lets stick that hot coffee between my legs, It doesnt say not too!!!!

[Vespertine]

Originally Posted by Vantabulous

Oddly, the flak you've taken from lesbians doesn't surprise me all that much. Were it to have come from gay men, then, I'd be surprised. (We men don't have nearly the revulsion about two women "being together" that we do about two men in a similar arrangement. Ergo, lesbians tend to come closer to an "acceptable", dare I say "vanilla", lifestyle than gay men do. (Sound about right, intuition?) That might account for the grief that you've gotten from them.)

I know quite a few gay couples and a few of them have a quite a vanilla mind-frame when it comes to swinging. My brother (who supports my lifestyle choice) is gay and has begged me NOT to let his life partner know that my husband and I swing. He told me that his boyfriend would think it was unacceptable and deviant. Wtf? :rollseyes