Alcohol's effect on changing boundaries

[Ditto]

Hi Ya'all,

We are new to the board, and wanted to introduce ourselves and thank ya'all for such a great place to get info on this lifestyle.

We are also new to everything and have just recently experienced our first soft-swing. The couple that broke us in are newbie's to, so this is a classic case of the blind leading the blind

Our first time was great, we all agreed that we wanted to play with our own partners, watch etc. Nothing was discussed about a girl/girl thing, and needless to say, we (us girls)ended up playing. I think we all had a good time that night, so we all decided to get together again.

Our second get together kinda leaves me confused and just a tad bit jealous.

The wife of the couple started using alcohol, The more she drank the bolder she became. She and my husband were flirting, back and forth, using "Body Language" as I would call it and she started becoming touchy feel'ly. In the mean time Her husband and I just sorta sit there etc, and discussed the weather, and his inability to maintain an erection? WOW! Now this is really getting interesting!

The wife then announces that she would be willing to do a full swap provided that we take things slow and work up to it. On the other hand, I am now completly dumb founded because not 1 hour ago this same woman told us that she wanted to limit things to our partners only!

Needless to say we ended the evening not doing anything, and told them that we might be able to get together next weekend. So now I am wondering how to handle the situation, Should we get together again knowing that they are trying to push our boundries out of bounds OR.... ?

Thanks,
Ann

[Elusive BiFem]

Originally posted by Ditto

The wife of the couple started using alcohol, The more she drank
Needless to say we ended the evening not doing anything, and told them that we might be able to get together next weekend. So now I am wondering how to handle the situation, Should we get together again knowing that they are trying to push our boundries out of bounds OR.... ?

Thanks,
Ann

Hi Ann, and welcome to the Board.

Unfortunately, alcohol has been the cause of more than one unhappy swinging experience for many of us. If you've had the opportunity to read the Forums, you will see that most people highly recommend the use of alcohol be limited and especially for new swingers.

If I decided to proceed with this particular couple, I would do so with a great deal of caution. They (she) has already demonstrated the fact that the prior discussions on boundaries, etc., mean little to her. And what about your own husband? It seems that he participated in the flirting and touchy feely thing. Maybe you and he need to have more serious discussions related to your own boundaries.

How do you feel about what happened? You mentioned you and the other husband sat there discussing the weather and his inability to achieve an erection, but you don't mention how this entire situation made you feel. Are you interested in a full swap at a later time? How does your husband feel about it? Have ya'll made the opportunity to discuss your feelings about what happened and what you may want in the future?

All of these questions need to be answered before you decide to spend more time with this couple. We all change our boundaries from time to time depending on circumstances and experiences, but that is something that needs to be well thought out and discussed prior to putting others in compromising situations.

For me personally, I think I would find it difficult to get together with this couple again if only because my personal comfort level had been trounced and because I would be somewhat untrusting of this other woman and her motives. While alcohol may have contributed to her actions, that is her problem and a handy excuse. Don't allow it to be made your problem.

Swinging can be a great deal of fun, but only when everyone is on the same page. Seems that ya'll are being put in the position of taking a giant leap from your first experience and wanting a soft swing experience to full swap. Before making any final decision, I would suggest serious discussion with Mr. Ditto and maybe a "joint reading" of the Board, particularly the section on New Swingers. Boundaries need to be established and adhered to by all. As I mentioned, they are changed from time to time, but generally, it is unwise to make those changes in the "heat of the moment." Too often, those types of pur of the moment changes result in miscommunication and hurt feelings.

Again, I'm glad you have found this Board and I'm certain the experiences of others will help you find the perfect comfort level for you and your husband. I hope both of you will spend some time here with us, reading, learning, and sharing.

- EBF

[Ditto]

(EBF)

Thanks for your advise. I have to say that watching the flirting/touchy feely thing going on made me feel somewhat betrayed a little hurt and feeling left out. I think the couples husband probably felt something along those lines as well, but he just watched, and smiled as if to say, "Oh well, there's nothing I can do".

Mr Ditto and I agreed prior to doing anything, that we would only experience soft-swing. He tells me that he doesn't want to full swap with this couple or be with this woman. I try to give hime the benifit of the doubt, but in all honesty I am having trouble believing this after what happened.

So I guess we need now to really talk huh!

Thanks
Ann

[saranmark]

Wow... I would feel hurt, too, I am afraid!

I think you have to really sit down with your husband and re-establish your boundaries, and then make a pact that you will NOT change them on the spur of the moment, no matter what!

I, personally, wouldn't swing with that particular couple again. It might not seem fair, but she has already crossed the line. Maybe she made a mistake, and some would argue that she would deserve a second chance, but to me, your marriage is the most important thing.

Maybe you can just chalk this up to inexperience, and go out and find someone new!

I hope everything works out!

Best,
SARA

[BradAndJanet]

Originally posted by Ditto
...He tells me that he doesn't want to full swap with this couple or be with this woman. ...

Good for him! Perhaps, in the light of day, he can see that this experience has affected you in a negative way and he's wanting to move on. Sure, it's possble that he's physically attracted to this woman, but he's doing the right thing by ignoring that and focusing on you and your needs as a couple.

You're right, you do need to talk, so open up to him as soon as possible and let him know how you feel. It's easy to make mistakes when you are new, or even when you're experienced, I suppose. We've made our share, that's for sure. But, if you keep the lines of communication open, you can learn from them and go on to better things.

I agree with all the good advice posted here! Let us know how things work out.

-B

[JustAskJulie]

Sounds like the biggest player in this drama was alchohol. It's easy to let boundaries slip when alchohol is involved and that may well have been the case with this lady.

I would say sit down with both of them and talk to them when you are all sober about what happened that night and about what their boundaries (and yours) really are. Let them know that if they want to continue seeing you that all boundaries much be adhered and perhaps even make it a rule to avoid alchohol when you are all together.

[bear_n_bunny]

I consider Bear and I blessed that we've never played with couples who drank. The only thing a person's who has embided to much should do is be driven home. In your case Ann, this woman's limits and personality changed to the point I think you'd be better off not playing with them.

However, there can never be too much honest talk with your partner or potential partners in the lifestyle. I'd keep discussing it. The worst that could happen is that you'd all find out more about yourselves and your limits.

-- Bunny

[Ditto]

Sounds like the biggest player in this drama was alchohol

Julie, I think you and everyone have nailed the problems we had that night perfectly. Thanks for all the advice and support!

Its just amazing though how peoples personalitys and boundries in this case can change so drastically when alcohol is involved. In a way, I feel just as guilty because I was drinking to. BUT.. I wasn't drunk to the point that I didn't know what was going on, nor drunk to the point that I didn't respect the womans boundries w/her hubby!!!!!

Thanks again everyone!

Ann

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by JustAskJulie
I would say sit down with both of them and talk to them when you are all sober about what happened that night and about what their boundaries (and yours) really are. Let them know that if they want to continue seeing you that all boundaries much be adhered and perhaps even make it a rule to avoid alchohol when you are all together.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this. If you like the couple and would really like to see them again, this advice is a MUST do. They may even be feeling quite antsy or embarassed about the whole occurence of events too. It's easy to slip up, especially when alcohol is involved.

Have you talked with them since then? Let us know how which direction you take. You aren't the first that this has happened to, and most definitely will not be the last, but your experience in how you decided to handle it, will help others.

[bear_n_bunny]

I'm sorry, but there is something about this situation that smells to me.

First off, I've never been able to understand this "soft swap" thing. For one thing, it's not swapping at all. You are just having sex with your own partner while another couple watches you/you watch them. Sounds more like voyeurism/exhibitionism to me. We have always been of the opinion that if you want to swing, then by God swing. But I suppose this comes under the heading of "different strokes" and all that, silly as it seems to us.

However, with regards to the incident described here, there appears to be a raging double standard here. It's all well and good to go on about "boundaries", guidelines and rules, etc. But first Ann says it was agreed that the play would be "soft swap" only (that is, no swapping at all). Then she admits that, lo and behold, she and the other woman did, in fact, play, and she thinks (huh?) everyone had a good time.

Then the next weekend rolls around, and the other woman getting a snootfull notwithstanding, suddenly the ante is raised; it's not "soft swap" anymore, but full swap is suggested by the other woman, and my impression is that Ann's hubby was amenable to the idea. However, Ann is "dumbfounded" because the rule was supposed to be "our partners only".

But wait a minute. Ann has already admitted that it has NOT been "soft swap, our partners only". She and the other woman have had sex on their previous encounter. That is, FULL SWAP. So right there, by her own actions, the boudaries have been shown to be pliable...at least when Ann wants them to be. (And please don't try to tell me that, just because it wad f2f bi play, that it really was not full swap. I don't give a rat's ass what the gender of the play partner was; if said partner was not your spouse, that's swapping, period.)

I'm not forgetting the behavior of the other woman, particularly where HER husband is concerned. While this is not discussed, one wonders how HE felt about this, especially since, as it turns out, he can't get it up anyway (which is another issue entirely).

However, I find the complaint about boundaries being pushed out of bounds to be disingenuous in the extreme. This has the look and feel of "what's mine is mine (Ann's), and what is yours is negotiable...if I feel like it". Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.

Both of you need to go back to the drawing board on this one, and establish some REAL boundaries, boundaries that EVERYONE can live with comfortably, amd more importantly, equitably.

-- Bear

(OK, my shields have been raised; let the flames begin... flamethrow

[Alura]

I had a few things to say about this situation until I read Bear's post. He said everything I had intended to write and more. Good post, Bear!

Mr. Alura

[Ditto]

First off, I've never been able to understand this "soft swap" thing. For one thing, it's not swapping at all. You are just having sex with your own partner while another couple watches you/you watch them. Sounds more like voyeurism/exhibitionism to me. We have always been of the opinion that if you want to swing, then by God swing. But I suppose this comes under the heading of "different strokes" and all that, silly as it seems to us.

Exactly..... "Different Strokes"

We choose to start out this way, as we have never been in such a situation before we do not have any idea of what each of us can handle. I guess we are taking what can be appropriately called "Baby Steps"!!!!!

However, with regards to the incident described here, there appears to be a raging double standard here. It's all well and good to go on about "boundaries", guidelines and rules, etc. But first Ann says it was agreed that the play would be "soft swap" only (that is, no swapping at all). Then she admits that, lo and behold, she and the other woman did, in fact, play, and she thinks (huh?) everyone had a good time. But wait a minute. Ann has already admitted that it has NOT been "soft swap, our partners only". She and the other woman have had sex on their previous encounter. That is, FULL SWAP. So right there, by her own actions, the boudaries have been shown to be pliable...at least when Ann wants them to be. (And please don't try to tell me that, just because it wad f2f bi play, that it really was not full swap. I don't give a rat's ass what the gender of the play partner was; if said partner was not your spouse, that's swapping, period.)

The other woman suggested "Playing" for the benifit of our husbands! We each knew before hand that our hubbys had no problem with girl/girl action we went ahead and played!

I don't give a rat's ass what the gender of the play partner was; if said partner was not your spouse, that's swapping, period.)

Please.... In all honesty, I don't consider this situation a full swap? I consider it just what it was "Girl/girl or Bi activitie" I know of lots of couples who's husbands let their wifes play, but the here is no male/female partner swap going on.

(OK, my shields have been raised; let the flames begin...

bear_n_bunny, you are entitled to your own opinion and your own version of what swapping means to you.... Why in the world would you think that I would wish to flame you for this?

To each their own I say!!!!

[OhioCouple]

Sorry, Ditto.

I have to agree with Bear. Anytime sexual activity occurs between someone other that your beloved, it is an exchange of sex, regardless of the gender.

Can you honestly say to yourself that what you experienced with this gal, was not in any way sexual. Did you not touch each other at all? If you had masturbated in the same room with them, no touching...etc., then you are still soft swap, by definition of what your boundries were before you ever met with this couple. I say this as you stated that there was to be no contact between any parties. This in my eyes would include girl/girl action. Therefore that boundry was surpassed and no one seemed none the less pleased about it. However, how is it on the second meet when another boundry is surpassed that it is different?

Did ya'll take a moment and sit down and chat about the girlie stuff before you did it, or did it just happen? My guess is that it just happened. If that is the case and I were of the opposite party, I'd have to assume that new levels have been opened and maybe it could move a little more forward, seeing how you already surpassed a pre-set boundry the week prior. This is why communication is so very important. Not just between yourselves, but with those you play with too.

[Ditto]

Hi OhioCouple,

I say this as you stated that there was to be no contact between any parties.

The no contact rule we had that evening mean't that we didn't want each other playing with each others "spouses". She didn't even want me to touch her husband and I felt the same about mine.

Although there was no talk about girl/girl activitie on that specific evening... there was talk between her and I several weeks or so prior to that particular evening. She told me that on occation she could be bi - soley for the benifit of letting her husband watch.
I had no problem with this, because my hubby wanted to watch to!! That evening it just happened.

Gee - I guess I really need to go into more detail when I post!

:slam"

Later,
Ann

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by Ditto
She told me that on occation she could be bi - soley for the benifit of letting her husband watch.
I had no problem with this, because my hubby wanted to watch to!! That evening it just happened.

Please don't take this in the wrong way, but I need to express this.

Understand that I am taking this off of the written word. I don't have the opportunity to sit with you in person and hear the inflection of voice or ask for clarification.

About 8 months or so ago, I laid down the law...and this is one rule I will not break, ever. There must be a comfort level and attraction to another female for me to swing with them. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Having been on ad sites for about two years and having met with many couples for dinner...all I can say, is that you haven't lived until you have sat in a public restroom with a woman bawling her eyes out because her husband thought she wasn't being nice enough for me to wanna play with her, so he could watch. That did it for me.

While I think it is an ultimate fantasy for many men, I'm just not gonna be party to please the guys. This is one reason we removed my sexual orientation in our online ads. If there is no attraction then there isn't going to be any play between myself and another female.

In my opinion, people just don't be bi for someone else. You either are or you aren't, and you are selective or you aren't, and most true bi-females are very selective....no different than the attraction you have for men. I wouldn't just do any guy for my husband, nor would he expect me to.