A Bisexual Acceptance Dilemna: MM vs FF

[DE_BBC]

is there a double standard? Yes, that seems to be the way, female bi-sexuality/lesbianism is and probably always will be considered more acceptable.

Did you cheat? Yes.
Would it be different is you were both women? Probably(just my opinion)

That however doesn't make it right.

[sweet_tna]

Originally Posted by JandY

I'm taking all the comments and opinions on-board and both of us guys know it's sort of wrong, but I also sort of view it in a similar light to how I might view jerking off without including or even telling my wife.

I bet she does, too.

Probably most of us do.

It's not really adultery in the traditional sense. There's no emotions involved. It's less of a betrayal, from my perspective, than if I were to pay a hooker for sex.

Just to throw something else in the pot, would people's opinions be any different if I and my buddy were female and playing together without our men?

Would be interested to learn if that would shape opinions any differently.

Here's the thing. For me, masturbation does not fall into the same category. For one thing, it only involves ONE person, and most couples that swing already know and accept that their SO masturbates. So Mr. Sweet and I don't need to ask each other then whens and wheres.

If my hubby had sex with ANYONE else without my knowledge and consent, I still would view it as cheating. Gender and cost are irrelevant.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by JandY

I'm taking all the comments and opinions on-board and both of us guys know it's sort of wrong, but I also sort of view it in a similar light to how I might view jerking off without including or even telling my wife.

I bet she does, too.

Probably most of us do.

It's not really adultery in the traditional sense. There's no emotions involved. It's less of a betrayal, from my perspective, than if I were to pay a hooker for sex.

Just to throw something else in the pot, would people's opinions be any different if I and my buddy were female and playing together without our men?

Would be interested to learn if that would shape opinions any differently.

Sorry I can't agree with you there. If there's another person involved it's not the same as jerking off. If you really thought she'd feel that way you'd have no qualms telling her. At this point I think you are just trying to justify not telling her, which will only lead to more deception.

And yes my opinion would be the same if you were the female halves of the couples. My hubby has made it clear that he is not comfortable with me playing alone with anyone (male or female) without his knowledge. If I did so and didn't tell him, I'd be lying and strictly through the lying & deceiving, I'd be cheating. There doesn't have to be emotions for it to be cheating.

[Speed & Trixie]

JandY, it's not about whether emotions are involved. It's not about with WHOM you are playing or the gender of the other person.

It's about playing with permission, which, right now, you do not have.

Please talk to your wife. If you want the MM play to continue, tell her so. Maybe she'll tell you and your friend to keep playing when the girls are away, maybe she'll tell you she wants to watch ... or maybe she'll tell you that it's unacceptable.

You don't really want to continue doing this behind your wife's back do you?

Trixie

[PB&J]

Now, ask yourself how your wife would see it if it was a woman you were having this just sex.. strictly sex thing with. Maybe if you were just soft swap with this other couple, and just HAD to go full with the other wife, and did, behind your wife's back, and wanted to continue that aspect of the relationship as well as the soft swap. And you know how right or successful that would be, right?

[bicuriocpl]

If you and your buddy were female and both of your male partners were against it, I would still hold the same opinion. Not telling is cheating if you truly intend to do it again. Lack of communication often starts with little omissions such as this. Then the resentment & hurt builds when the other half finds out. After all if you withheld that sort of information what other secrets of the same level are you withholding? Without communication, trust can be easily destroyed.

[Lixxnsuxx]

"Would be interested to learn if that would shape opinions any differently." Please refer to my earlier post. F/F or M/M my beliefs are the same- period.

[Additude]

I'm sure most would answer, "yes it would be the same" to your last question.

JandY, your case is another example of two wrongs don't make it right. Your wives are wrong for what they think and you guys are wrong for going behind the wives backs on account of it.

The point is, are your wives entitled to know about your activities sexually? In a marriage or a LTR, I personally think they should be aware of those types of extramarital activities.

Really that's the bottom line here, not all this other what if's then if's stuff.

Also I'd like to point out that this is another classic example of how we shape and mold our opinions and actions based on another’s person’s decision. Here the "wives" presumably make statements to the effect of "Not wanting to accept any male-male contact" for what reasons we do not know, closed mindedness, social programming, etc. and this statement by the wives has in turn "forced" the husbands to partake in extramarital sexual activity without their wives knowledge because the husbands feel divulging this activity will make their wives think less of them as men.

So in this subject case, the wives decisive outlook regarding sexual male-male contact has affected the men’s actions. This type of situation happens frequently throughout human society. It's programmed human behavoir based on thousands of years of iteration.

This type of condition exists commonly in society as a whole, not just in marriage, but also in all relationships.

The bottom line is we are all responsible for our own decisions and what makes of them. The decision to withhold this information from the wives is a decision based on fear of what the wives will think or how they will react.

How do you think the wives will react when they find out? They will find out eventually you know and later is going to be a whole lot worse of a reaction from the wives. They are going to be hurt emotionally because you have lied to them and you have cheated on them. The heck with the sex act, your not being up front with them is going to be the basis of their distrust in you.

I say make a decision for yourself, not based on the influence of what your wives will think. What the wives think will be managed by your actions and words. If you are cheating and lie, then those are the actions that will guide your wives thoughts....if your up front, you tell it like it is and then address the wives preconceived notions about male-male sex, your going to gain yardage, not just between your wife and yourself, but your going to gain a lot personally....and shed the burden of guilt in the process.

Do it and do it the right way. No more games.

[NCfuncouple98]

Originally Posted by lardub

Do you recall ever stating that you don't see the attraction and can't understand how males could find this attractive. Have you even stood behind them and said it doesn't hurt me but its not my cup of tea. In short have you projected to her that it was the furthest thing from your mind, and you could never do it, that to you it was un-natural, could this be perhaps a basis of the girls stance on the matter.

I think this could be dead-on. Mr NC and I talked about this one at length last night - because I myself have over the years made comments like your wife has about M/M play. I can tell you we had one of the most open conversations last night about it, and I wanted to make sure that if there was EVER anything he was fantasizing about or considering, that I would never put him in a position where he didn't feel he could be honest.

You need to have this conversation. You may not consider it cheating, but you cannot deny that it is deceiptful. To all parties involved. Sorry, it doesn't compare to jerking off alone in the shower and not mentioning it.

And it will come out eventually, and that will be 500% worse. Find a way - have a nice dinner, a glass or two of wine, maybe a hot bath together, and find your courage to be honest with your wife. You may find she's not as against as you thought when she realizes that you are going through this. It may be just her "standard programmed" response now, but when it's her husband and the love of her life, she will be more honest about it too.

As to your question if you were a female would you get the same response. Well, I have recently discovered my own bisexuality. No way would I hide it from Mr NC - I don't think I could live with myself looking him in the eye every single day if I was playing with the girl on the side alone. IMO, it's no different than meeting up with the opposite sex of a couple that you've played with together, and having sex. It's all deceiptful and yes, cheating.

I do wish you well on this one, and truly hope it all works out. But the longer you wait, the more it will strain your relationship.

Mrs NC

[Karmickiss]

Hi All!
I used to come on here quite often...but haven't been around in quite a while. Perhaps I should do another intro, it's been that long. I really loved these forums..so when scanning through, was drawn to this thread, b/c I am a single bi woman...and I've often been frustrated with some of what I feel could be called "myths" about bi-sexuality. I started reading everyone's responses, and heartily agree with a lot, but still need to finish, I wanted to write a quick reply while my mind was still fresh with my own thoughts.
There does seem to be a double standard in some ways. I'll agree with that. One other thing that bothers me, is that if/when I tell someone I am bi-sexual, there is often a fear there....usually more if I'm becoming involved or might be with someone...the fear/belief that many seem to have, is that solely due to the fact that I'm bi-sexual, it would mean that I couldn't be monogamous, even if I wanted to. In other words, that part of "my nature" would be that I could never be satisfied with just one...if I wanted to, that it would always end up in cheating with the other sex.
To me, that's absurd, and I was able to be with just one guy for quite some time...up until he died suddenly three years ago....I'm only now feeling ready to be in any "scene". The thing was he just couldn't swing, and it would have hurt him had I "done my own thing"...and love being love it was easy for me to stay faithful. Being bi-sexual to me means, for just one thing, that I have the potential to fall in love with a man or a woman.
So, long and short of it to me would be out of love and respect for any potential partner, I wouldn't cheat, or do things on the sly, even if my partner was a "freak like me"...lol..Hope everyone here is having a good day today, thank you for the interesting thread, Karmic

[bbarnsworth]

Originally Posted by Karmickiss

...the fear/belief that many seem to have, is that solely due to the fact that I'm bi-sexual, it would mean that I couldn't be monogamous, even if I wanted to. In other words, that part of "my nature" would be that I could never be satisfied with just one...if I wanted to, that it would always end up in cheating with the other sex.

I never bought into this either. I'm not bi myself, but never felt threatened at the prospect of dating someone who was. I mean, if they're choosing to be with me, I assume they're choosing to be with me. Regardless of what your sexual attractions are, if you're involved in a monogamous relationship you're with that person alone. You're giving up having relations with anyone period, regardless of what sex they are. I just couldn't process the idea that if you're bi, that somehow falls down and a bi person could never be satisfied with just one person. It just didn't track logically for me.

[Rackir]

Hi there J. Just read over this thread and a couple of things jumped out that I wanted to say.

First, thanks for the story! Damn hot!

But...,,,

Originally Posted by JandY

I believe that I and my buddy are both rampant heteros who just happen to enjoy sucking each other's cocks and balls.

Okay, how the hell does that work? Are you by chance also a 6"3 short guy? Or perhaps a rabid environmentalist except for the fact that you drive a hummer and don't recycle?

You enjoy sucking your friend’s cock. You my friend are either gay or bi. Since you seem to also be attracted to women I think that narrows you down to bi.

Time to own it.

As others have said there is a definite chance that a large part of your wife’s view of MM activity is based on projections you have given. Since even after writing a really hot account of how attracted you are to your friends cock, and how much you enjoyed sucking him off you still claim to be not only hetero, but RAMPANTLLY hetero, I think it's a pretty solid bet that you have had a past tendency to somewhat disparage male on male contact. Add to that the fact that you liken having sex with your buddy (which is what you did) as more akin to masturbation than to having sex with another person and it paints a pretty complete picture (really, the lack of emotion thing doesn’t play, would that argument work if you nailed a girl at the office but were really only attracted to her body?).

That level of conflict is pretty common. We grow up with male homosexuality being a specter in our society. When "fag" and "queer" are some of the ultimate (and most commonly used) insults, there is really no preventing the conflict for people who find themselves wanting to play on that side of the fence now and then.

So the first thing you need to do is get over it.

Go ahead and say it, "I am bisexual". You might be an extremely picky bisexual, but bi you are nonetheless.

Now after you've said it to yourself a few times, prove that you are still plenty manly by manning up and going to your wife and telling her that you are bisexual and that you cheated on her.

If you're really lucky (and well spoken) she will be willing to give you a chance to explain and you can tell her all about how the attraction had been building for a while, and finally you guys just gave in to it.

If you are really really lucky, she just might find it a turn on, and want to see it for herself.

Regardless though you owe to her and to yourself and your relationship to be honest. Both about your feelings, and your actions.

Good luck, and I really hope it works out for you. The coming out process is hard, very hard, but in the end it yields nothing but rewards.

[Lascivious L&L]

It's been over a year, but I just read it and have to reply. So much holier than thou judgment going on in these responses! So much boxing this situation into swinging power words like cheating. Hey, we've all lied and most of us, perhaps all of us, have cheated. Oh I forgot, there are a few of you perfect humans out there.

It's about fear. This guy fears his wife will see him as less of a man. He fears real communication with his wife and with his friend's wife and its potential for hurt or for growth. I agree with others that this offers him the opportunity to find out if his wife can accept him. It may also be the opportunity to find out his wife doesn't accept him. This is what he fears.

Sure it would have been better if he discussed this before doing it. But this is the real world and more often such discussion happens after. The point is he will feel better if he comes clean. But he fears so much. Fear is what needs to be faced.

Oh and the neat little bi label. It may or may not fit him. He certainly fears it. Bi means so many different things to so many different people that your need to tell him he's definitely bi reflects on your own emotional construct for bi.

[Chicup]

Missed this thread when it came out which is a shame. I can understand his fear as I know my wife thinks MM sex is 'icky' as well and shes very turned off by it. Likewise I can even understand the lack of thinking it was cheating and more like masturbation. If anything I'd say that would point to a 'not-bi' thing, though obviously we haven't had any updates.

Funny thing about it was back when we first started swinging the Mrs. asked me if it were ok if she played FF alone. I said yes, and she never had to ask if it came up. But she did still ask. What was done here was still cheating, even if I can sympathize with his motives.

Personally I hope he never did tell her about it, the reason being that it might do far more harm then good, I just wouldn't continue the behavior.

Originally Posted by Lascivious L&L

It's been over a year, but I just read it and have to reply. So much holier than thou judgment going on in these responses! So much boxing this situation into swinging power words like cheating. Hey, we've all lied and most of us, perhaps all of us, have cheated. Oh I forgot, there are a few of you perfect humans out there.

Not perfect, never cheated. Just saying.

[Big Rock]

JandY, this isn't "sort", of cheating, it is an actual betrayal of trust. Many of the posters are getting caught up in the "gay", aspect and down-playing the infidelity aspect of this situation. You cheated on your W and he cheated on his, pure and simple. The "gay", aspect can and should be dealt with , yes, but the infidelity is far worse, IMO. It's a very slippery slope when people start to have "secret", liasons. You and him should tell your wives, immediately.