Why do bisexual swinging males feel that they must hide their sexuality?

[JustAskJulie]

I'm reading "Happy Swinging" by Sue Gould and so far this is a really great book and it has one of the best bits on male homosexuality that I have seen. I could be mistaken but I get the feeling that much of this book was taken from editorials that she wrote for various swinger magazines. In this particular case, not only did she include her thoughts on male bisexuality but also several letters in reply to her editorial on the subject.

There were a few things that struck me, things I hadn't really considered before so I thought I would bring them up here:

1. Males avoid homosexuality out of competitiveness "Alpha Male theory". Basically, they are all fighting for the women and to be the dominant man... but if two guys hook up one of them has to give up dominance. Since women are not as competitive it is ok for them to have sex together.

I don't know about you, but from what I've seen women are just as competitive as men... so I'm not sure how much I can agree with that theory.

2. Machismo- the pressure to not be feminine - Since no one wants to feel insecure and femininity in males is typically looked down upon, males shun the idea of bisexuality (or keep it hidden in the closet) because they don't want to be looked down upon by others.

I can buy this latter idea much better. It seems that it is becoming more and more common to see men who will admit to being bisexual in the right situation or to certain people, but aren't likely to do so publicly.... could it be that they simply fear the rejection of others if they do so?

We say that clubs do not allow male bisexuality because that is what the majority of their patrons want, but is that really true? Or is it for the same reason, is it that they fear what people will think if they allow it? Will they suddenly start to draw too much of the gay crowd that perhaps is looking for a place to play as well? If that happens, you can only imagine that the bulk of their swinger crowd (straight and bi) may disappear for suddenly feeling like they don't quite fit in anymore.

Another thing that I found most interesting (and it may have been by her choice of what to include) but all of the letters she included in reply to her editorial were from men who admitted to being bi to some degree or another, most would be what we have recently "labeled" here as "situationally bi"... go figure.

Could it be that the answer to the shunning of male bisexuality is that the bisexual males just need to come out of the closet and stop worrying about what others think?

[Chicup]

A couple of days ago I had a thought, well I had several about many things but this is the only one that applies here.

I thought to my self, you know, we haven't had the recurring male bisexuality thread, its only a matter of time.

I just didn't expect you to start it.

[IvoryTowers]

Mrs. Ivory here. I think a large part of the supposed lack of male bisexuality is simply cultural. Modern American culture sees male homosexuality as problematic as best and bisexuality as just "homos who aren't even brave enough to be homo."

But if you look at other cultures, male bisexuality is common. One is ancient Greece, where boys were expected to be lovers to older men, who would mentor them as well as have sex with them. A strictly segregated society, male ancient Greeks would spend the majority of their time with other men and didn't value interactions with women. Yet most of these men had wives and children. Some probably didn't like sex with men as much as with women, and others vice versa. But it was a norm and everyone accepted it.

Sexuality is much more fluid than people think. Yes, some kinks are desires are hardwired, but people can learn to like and even love things if they have a strong enough reason to do so. In the same way, people will shun certain sexual acts (unless they are strongly drawn to them) if there is a huge social and/or intimate penalty attached.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowers

Mrs. Ivory here. I think a large part of the supposed lack of male bisexuality is simply cultural. Modern American culture sees male homosexuality as problematic as best and bisexuality as just "homos who aren't even brave enough to be homo."

But if you look at other cultures, male bisexuality is common. One is ancient Greece, where boys were expected to be lovers to older men, who would mentor them as well as have sex with them. A strictly segregated society, male ancient Greeks would spend the majority of their time with other men and didn't value interactions with women. Yet most of these men had wives and children. Some probably didn't like sex with men as much as with women, and others vice versa. But it was a norm and everyone accepted it.

Sexuality is much more fluid than people think. Yes, some kinks are desires are hardwired, but people can learn to like and even love things if they have a strong enough reason to do so. In the same way, people will shun certain sexual acts (unless they are strongly drawn to them) if there is a huge social and/or intimate penalty attached.

Odds are when you go back 2000 years for a different example, you are stretching it a bit.

Interestingly while people bring up the Greeks and Romans of being accepting of male homosexuality, female homosexuality was shunned in both societies.

The Romans also based male homosexuality acceptance on who it was with. Roman + slave = good, Roman + Roman = bad. The Romans also condemned the practice of male pedophilia as something done by the girly Greeks. Romans could go to jail for having sex with other Romans if it was a homosexual act. Also the Roman had to be the 'top'. This puts male homosexuality as acceptable from a dominance stand point, but not the act for the acts sake.

Even with the effeminate greeks (according to the Romans) real numbers are hard to come by.

For all the complaints, male homosexuality is accepted in the West now, even in the US. For a long time my neighbors were a homosexual couple, and oddly no one came for them. I think we are prone to over emphasize the negative when the vast majority of homosexuals and bisexuals live their lives without incident.

But to the concept of the OP.

I think male bisexuality in swinging is much more common than is represented and less common than many male bisexuals claim. Its not about acceptance for us, but what makes it sexy for us. Men doing men just isn't sexy for my wife, myself, and at least some of the swinging couples we know, so while I don't care what they do where I can't see, if it were in the open we just wouldn't go to that club.

Modern American culture sees male homosexuality as problematic as best and bisexuality as just "homos who aren't even brave enough to be homo."

Actually there IS research to support this. I don't know how valid it is, its rather difficult to study, but I'd say at least SOME male bisexuals are homo's not brave enough to be homo.

I can only speak for myself in that I've never had a bisexual encounter. It was interesting to me when I took a 'rate your sexuality' quiz recently. It asked about homosexual dreams and I've never had one, though I've often dreamed of heterosexual acts. I think if I had any latent bisexuality hiding in me, I'd at least have had a dream or two about it.

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Actually there IS research to support this. I don't know how valid it is, its rather difficult to study, but I'd say at least SOME male bisexuals are homo's not brave enough to be homo.

I don't have a problem believing this. On the flip side, many of us know female "bisexuals" who seem to be far enough toward the lesbian end of the continuum, that it makes one question whether they are really lesbians with just a shred of hetero thrown in. I can understand the motivations of people who are really gays and lesbians but eke out enough attraction to the opposite sex to get married and make it work, as long as they can also express their same-sex desires.

As for not being "brave" enough, I try not to judge them. I haven't walked in their shoes. It must be extremely difficult to always feel that who you are flies in the face of what is accepted by society. Not just a hobby, not just a lifestyle, but who you are. I'm sure it must be appealing on some levels to try to have a "normal" life so you can be accepted and have security, a family, a shield.

Having said that, I'll share my opinion on why male homosexuality is shunned in swinging, or at least the reasons why I would not personally encourage it within swinging. I think gays and lesbians ought to be able to love and marry just like everyone else. But in swinging, I will say these two very un-PC things:

One, male homosexuality lends itself to relatively quick and casual sex, even compared to heterosexual swingers . It's one of the differences between men and women. I personally would be afraid that if it were to become more accepted within swinging, it would become a large enough component of the lifestyle that it would start to push aside the parts of it that I enjoy. There, I said it. I would rather male homosexuality flourish in other venues. I am in swinging for heterosexual sex, and I already feel like I have to wade through the girl-on-girl stuff to get to what I'm interested in.

Two, and I'll probably get flamed for this, I believe man-on-man sex has a higher incidence of transmission of disease. This is because anal sex is a bigger component of sex between two men than it is between two people of any other gender combination, and the effect is multiplied by #1.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by Chicup

A couple of days ago I had a thought, well I had several about many things but this is the only one that applies here.

I thought to my self, you know, we haven't had the recurring male bisexuality thread, its only a matter of time.

I just didn't expect you to start it.

I'm trying to approach it from a different direction. This isn't about why aren't YOU bisexual, or why are some people bisexual and some are not... and perhaps my title doesn't really fit the overall question. But, if you read the post, it's really more about why do bisexual men feel the need to hide their sexuality. Perhaps a title change is in order.

-EDIT- I did change the thread title at this point to better convey the point of the thread, as it seemed that people were getting derailed by the original title rather than answering based on what was actually in the post.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by Chicup

Actually there IS research to support this. I don't know how valid it is, its rather difficult to study, but I'd say at least SOME male bisexuals are homo's not brave enough to be homo.

Interesting. Actually, one of the letters responding to Sue Gould's editorial on the subject that brought up that very concept.

Over the years I have met men who called themselves bisexual, but in reality most have been closet gays who play the role of being straight and maintain straight lifestyles as their covers.

of course, he goes on to say that he has not interest in self-proclaimed bisexuals or avowed homosexuals. He was a "soft-bisexual" basically equal to our "situationally bi"... if the right guy came along at the right time and the stars aligned properly.

[Malachista]

@Chicup and Fuse: If you would see m/m play in the open in any club/party (just like you have to accept f/f everywhere even if you don't find it erotic) would you just stop to swing?

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by Malachista

@Chicup and Fuse: If you would see m/m play in the open in any club/party (just like you have to accept f/f everywhere even if you don't find it erotic) would you just stop to swing?

By "stop to swing" I am assuming you mean "stop swinging". The answer is, of course not. I think my post made it clear that I support male homosexuality. I might even stop to watch. But knowing that a man were bisexual would make it much less likely that I would want to have sex with him, for reasons I think were also clear in my post.

[NakedInSeattle]

I feel the reason bisexual males feel they need to hide it is not due to any feelings of their own but the feelings of the rest of society. I include the swinging community in this as well...not much difference.

As I've stated before, it's more socially accepted for a guy to be gay than it is for him to be bi. I live in a very liberal, in many regards, city and know many artists (who are historically the most sexually liberal of all). I can say confidently that most of these fine folks would be horrified to know I am bi. I overheard a conversation one time that went like this - "I can certainly understand hetero and I can understand gay but I can't understand bi at all. It should be either one way or the other - not both."

And I won't bother going into the "double standard" with regard to female bisexuality being so well tolerated - nay, enjoyed in the swinging community. This has been bantered about enough.

So - bottom line - it ain't me that's the problem, it's them.

[Malachista]

Originally Posted by The Fuse

By "stop to swing" I am assuming you mean "stop swinging". The answer is, of course not. I think my post made it clear that I support male homosexuality. I might even stop to watch. But knowing that a man were bisexual would make it much less likely that I would want to have sex with him, for reasons I think were also clear in my post.

Sorry, I guess it was more a question for chicup then.
"I would not go somewhere where I have to see M/M" is making a double standart of the situation again.
There are people who don't want to see F/F but they just have to accept and ignore it, because nobody thinks about not allowing it "in the open*

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Malachista

@Chicup and Fuse: If you would see m/m play in the open in any club/party (just like you have to accept f/f everywhere even if you don't find it erotic) would you just stop to swing?

We would stop going to that club, simple as that. If suddenly every club had it, then we would stop going to clubs all together. As most of our swinging experiences have not been at clubs, it wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[Chicup]

With the title change I think I can answer that question better.

Why do bisexual males feel the need to hide their sexuality?

Well in swinging its obvious.

They want to fuck my wife.

Its hiding what they are in order to be more attractive to couples. We don't play with bisexual males, part of what fuse said with disease, and just part 'eww' factor. This is totally Mrs. Chicups decision, she finds it very unappealing even though she is bi. I know we are not alone in feeling this way in the life style.

Now while Mrs. Chicup is bi, its like 85% straight 15% bi, she would rather play with most males than most females. Listing her as bi or bi comfortable doesn't limit our chances with straight couples.

I'm willing to bet that as soon as you put 'bisexual' in a profile as a male, or as soon as you say 'Well I'm not opposed to giving a guy a bj' at a club, you will almost exclusively be approached by those looking for MM style play.

Unless you are a 'bi furious' male this will really limit your swinging options.

So you play it safe, call yourself straight, maybe use the 'hes very open minded' profile line, maybe not, and play it always by ear, never bringing it up unless you are near certain it will be received well.

[good times]

I agree with Chicup regarding the reasons men would hide the fact that they are bi.

I would like to add though that it is interesting to me that most people here would assume that a woman listing herself as bi in her profile would not hinder their chances of hooking up with a straight/straight couple. I do not believe that this is 100% true, at least I am sure it is not for us, as we have often declined an invite to get together because, upon reading the profile, we got the impression that the woman was more bi than we were comfortable with.

I think that realization by couples with a bi-female is why I see a lot more profiles lately with statements like, "she is bi in the right circumstances, but prefers men". For us, if we see a woman in a profile listed as bi, and their first line says something like, "looking for single women and couples", and often has statements like, "she really enjoys the touch of a woman", we are most likely going to decline to meet or play with them.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by good times

I think that realization by couples with a bi-female is why I see a lot more profiles lately with statements like, "she is bi in the right circumstances, but prefers men". For us, if we see a woman in a profile listed as bi, and their first line says something like, "looking for single women and couples", and often has statements like, "she really enjoys the touch of a woman", we are most likely going to decline to meet or play with them.

I'm bi and we're just as likely to not meet a couple for the same reason. There are times when I'm all about getting with another woman, but for the most part we want to play as a couple and that means everyone playing. When I see profiles like that I pretty much just assume that all they really want is another woman and they'll settle for a couple.