The swinging industry needs to be less homophobic to men

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

I made no such comparison.

To wit:

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha, just one post prior

To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus.

Early in the last century, there was a thing in America (where I am from, so it is a familiar history) called segregation. Skin color and where a person sat on a bus was a "flash point" of the Civil Rights movement.

A black man (or woman) during this era could be refused service at restaurants, terrorized in their homes or even murdered based simply on the color of their skin. Was this not "back of the bus" comparison you were making? If not - you are quite sloppy with your use of metaphor.

Personally, I think you are simply craw-dadding from your earlier comment.

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

I was illustrating a point that you can't pick out something as simple as gender to define two separate standards, as you were trying to do.

I think skin color and gender differences are quite different. Take this for example - what is the difference between a black man and a white man? Skin color?

What is the difference between a white man and a black woman? Skin color? And genitalia... And chromosomes... And a unique spirit that makes a woman a woman - and the emotional complications that make a man a man.

I sincerely do not see gender differences as two dimensional as you do. The differences between a man and a woman are far more complex than what dangles (or does not dangle) between their legs. I can not - for the life of me - understand how a person is successful with the opposite sex without understanding that greater differences exist.

Spoomonkey

[BCinIN]

Originally Posted by mackie44

The swinging industry has always prided itself on being open-minded. Indeed, one of the catch-cries of the industry has been "freedom". However, I'm seriously starting to wonder whether this is actually true. The amount of discrimination that many swing clubs show towards the male-male interaction is quite shocking. This isn't true open-mindedness.

Sure it is--they're open-minded toward what their members want. If their member couples don't want that sort of thing (most don't), it's frowned upon. Simple as that.

I'm not saying that individual swingers should do things or accept things in their own lives that they don't want to. I'm simply suggesting that swing clubs should not be banning the male-male interaction. I would also say that many of the clubs are skating on thin legal ice in relation to this.

Heh, nothing like a lose-lose situation. It's a lawsuit in one hand (hopefully an unsuccessful one), or going out of business because couples that don't want to be around MM activity all quit their memberships. If I were a club owner, I'd fight the lawsuit. When you're a membership-funded business, you are what your members want...or you cease to exist. Quite honestly, my wife and I wouldn't want to be around MM activity. And it's not "phobia"--we're not afraid of it, we just don't like it.

[mackie44]

BCinTN,

I don't see why individuals should curtail their same-sex activity because they are in your presence. That's a very regal attitude you have, I'm afraid. If you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it.

At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

[mackie44]

Spoomonkey,

The issue of racial discrimination is similar to sexuality discrimination. Both are discrimination based on prejudice, of "not liking" something.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by mackie44

The issue of racial discrimination is similar to sexuality discrimination. Both are discrimination based on prejudice, of "not liking" something.

Trying to compare the level of "persecution" a bisexual male may face at a swing club with the real persecution that people face for their color (or, for that matter, homosexuals face on a daily basis) is absolutely ludicrous - and an insult to people with real struggles.

Spoomonkey

[Ruff]

While I respect the rights of others to do as they, as consenting adults, choose, I wonder if any thoughts of practicality factor into this particular argument. As tolerant as some may be, the fact of the matter is that many, many str8 men (including male half of couples) aren't going to attend those clubs/functions with such activity going on. Now these men (and couples) are not forbidding such action, they are choosing to avoid it because as a couple of responders have already stated, it would be a sexual turn off.
Often when this debate takes place the general attitude of those "Pro bi-activity" seems to be that str8 men in the lifestyle have somehow lost thier "right to be str8" once they've begun 2 swing and are homophobic if they choose not to engage in or be present where it is taking place. It seems that the UNDERLYING message of many who promote the premise of the Original Poster is that if you are str8 and male then don't swing (unless you are willing to be bi of course) .

[BCinIN]

Originally Posted by mackie44

BCinTN,

I don't see why individuals should curtail their same-sex activity because they are in your presence. That's a very regal attitude you have, I'm afraid. If you don't like it, don't do it and don't watch it.

It's not because of my presence--it's because a full 95% (or more) couples don't want to participate in it, don't want to see it, and don't want to be around it. The clubs follow the preferences of their members--that's their job, unless they have a fetish for bankruptcies.

At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

Life is full of double standards. Some of them are great, some not so great. Popularity or the lack thereof, not hypocrisy or the lack thereof, is what maintains or destroys them. And I'm afraid you aren't going to change the minds of the vast majority on this one.

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by mackie44

At the end of the day, I think swing clubs should allow both forms of homosexual activity, not just one. When only one is allowed, it reeks of hypocrisy.

How about watersports?
Scat play?

Where do YOU draw the line?

Most of us don't want to see MM play, we will not go to those clubs, and clubs being private are able to dictate their own rules. Sorry you don't like them.

[mackie44]

Ruff,

If you are straight, be straight. If you are bi, be bi. There is no-one compelling you to do anything against your will. But when a swing club bans the male form of homosexuality (as opposed to the female form of homosexuality), it's a huge double standard. It's also discriminatory and un-American.

[VegasLee]

Un-American????

America is the land of double standards.

Some people read way to much into things.

There are clubs that allow and welcome male and female bi/gay. Go to them.

Not every club is going to meet your standards so don't go to the ones that don't live up to your expectations. It really is very simple.

[Ruff]

Originally Posted by mackie44

Ruff,

If you are straight, be straight. If you are bi, be bi. There is no-one compelling you to do anything against your will. But when a swing club bans the male form of homosexuality (as opposed to the female form of homosexuality), it's a huge double standard. It's also discriminatory and un-American.

Going out of business may be as American as apple pie too but no one really sets out 2 have their start-up go under. Which is apparently your solution 2 what U consider a "problem".
U seem 2 be unwilling 2 accept the reality that str8 couples and singles males WILL NOT frequent the clubs under the scenario that pleases you. So we now have mostly empty clubs with U and the gay/bi male contingent left to support the entire Swing "Industry" as U phrased it... doesn't sound too promising to me.

Is it your contention then that those who don't want to see/ be present where bi/gay male activity is present should not go to swing clubs at all?

I have noticed U have not addressed the main point of those in support of the "rules", what is your solution to the fact that many Str8 men in attendance will no longer wish to have sex and will be apt to take their partners and leave ?

[mackie44]

Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by mackie44

Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

We shall overcome...... we shall overcome......

If a club wants to have a no blacks rule, thats their issue.

We have clubs that only allow 'pretty people' already, if another one wants to use racial lines thats up to them.

[tribbles]

And don't forget the age issues. We have less then XX age only and also over XX age only as well, clubs here.

Private clubs cater to what the private membership wants.

[Ruff]

Originally Posted by mackie44

Would you similarly agree with a "no blacks" policy at a swing club if the majority of members didn't want blacks there?

Trust me they are out there and U know what blacks do about it? We don't go there! Listen why would I go swinging in a place where I'd obviously be uncomfortable AND turned off? Going to a swing club and abding by their rules is not paying the same fare yet sitting in the back of the bus or paying the same price for food and being restricted on where you can eat.

Once again I notice you've refused to deal with the how your activity would turn off and drive away the str8 males and couples. Your solution seems to be to stick your fingers in your ear, recite "it's unfair, I can't hear you" as if somehow magically most str8 men won't head away from the clubs in droves if the actions you prefer were allowed. So I ask once AGAIN, what is your solution for the clubs when all those patrons no longer frequent them and/or what do you suggest for the str8 men and couples who will NOT want to be there? ( BTW the "grin and bear it" responce isn't applicable becuz they will grimace and vacate... )